4th Economics 101

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

No, this is another area where the text is confusing. Let me rephrase things to make it clearer. Just like explosives have an RE value where C4 is 1, so too does crop yield have a Yield Effectiveness (YE) value where wheat is 1. Replace crop multiplier with YE and the calculations are the same. 1 of wheat = 0.5 of corn = 100 of cocaine.

Hmmm ok..... What do you make of the multiplier? 1/12 for milk or 1/20 for poultry. Where does this fit in?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Hmmm ok..... What do you make of the multiplier? 1/12 for milk or 1/20 for poultry. Where does this fit in?

Since they are roughly linear to the hectare yield, I think it was an attempt to simplify calculations that just adds to the noise. It is never used in any of the examples.

I think I figured out what the multiplier is in the livestock. It is kind of stupid. It lets you express the land the livestock uses to graze in terms of wheat. It is just way too confusing to use when we can calculate it from the other numbers easier.

[ArmySGT.]

Homestead #2
Tech D (Early Electric)
10 persons. 15-64=66% or 6.6 rounding up to 7 adults . Labor pool = 2/3 of 7= 4.62 rounding up to 5.

Tech level D Agriculture 11-25%, Mining / manufacturing/construction 25%, Distribution=20%, Other services 32%
5*0.25= 1.25, 5*0.20= 1, 5*0.32= 1.6
Five adults, One Farmer, One maker, One Trader, 2 Other.

Consume = 300kg wheat equivalents x 10 persons = 3000Kg

A Tech level D farmer produces 1300kg per hectare at 40 hours of work per hectare and can harvest 50 hectares per labor year (2000 labor hours).
3000kg/1300kg= 2.30 hectares of wheat produced for a labor hours of 92 hours.

The homestead requires 50Kg of meat and 150L of milk per person to adequately feed them.

50Kg*10= 500kg of meat and 1500L of milk.

The Homestead raises hogs for meats like hams and bacon. Hogs require 6kg of corn for each kilogram of pork at harvest. 6*500= 3000 kilos of corn….. only 10% of the herd can be harvested to keep the stock healthy though. 6*500 =3000/2*1300 = 1.2 hectares or 40*1.2= 48 labor hours * 10 (10% is consumed) 480 labor hours keeping hogs for meat.
2.3 hectares wheat and 1.2 hectares corn. 2.3+1.2= 3.5 hectares * 40 hours per hectare…. 140 labor hours plus 480 hours herding hogs for 620 labor hours per year farming the absolute minimum.

[ArmySGT.]

Extraction.... the Tech D homestead is producing natural gas.....

A natural gas well is tapped to produce fuel for the tractor, heating the home and out buildings and cooking meals. The gas well equipment, pumps, vacuums, refining, and pressure bottling is occupies one laborer (1 (laborer) x 5 (output) x 500 (material conversion factor)= 2500 and occupies 125,000M2 ((2500x100)/0.5=125000) This produces 2500kg of gas or 2500*35.3= 8825 cubic meters of natural gas.

8825 cubic meters of gas for one labor year.

To build the well took 1 (laborer)*6 (output) = 6 labor years (6*2000=12,000hrs) to get started and 1(laborer)*3(input)= 3 labor years (3*2000=6000 hours) annually in upkeep.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Homestead #2
Tech D (Early Electric)
10 persons. 15-64=66% or 6.6 rounding up to 7 adults . Labor pool = 2/3 of 7= 4.62 rounding up to 5.

Tech level D Agriculture 11-25%, Mining / manufacturing/construction 25%, Distribution=20%, Other services 32%
5*0.25= 1.25, 5*0.20= 1, 5*0.32= 1.6
Five adults, One Farmer, One maker, One Trader, 2 Other.

Consume = 300kg wheat equivalents x 10 persons = 3000Kg

A Tech level D farmer produces 1300kg per hectare at 40 hours of work per hectare and can harvest 50 hectares per labor year (2000 labor hours).
3000kg/1300kg= 2.30 hectares of wheat produced for a labor hours of 92 hours.

The homestead requires 50Kg of meat and 150L of milk per person to adequately feed them.

50Kg*10= 500kg of meat and 1500L of milk.

The Homestead raises hogs for meats like hams and bacon. Hogs require 6kg of corn for each kilogram of pork at harvest. 6*500= 3000 kilos of corn….. only 10% of the herd can be harvested to keep the stock healthy though. 6*500 =3000/2*1300 = 1.2 hectares or 40*1.2= 48 labor hours * 10 (10% is consumed) 480 labor hours keeping hogs for meat.
2.3 hectares wheat and 1.2 hectares corn. 2.3+1.2= 3.5 hectares * 40 hours per hectare…. 140 labor hours plus 480 hours herding hogs for 620 labor hours per year farming the absolute minimum.

Your pork section is off. You are harvesting 500Kg of pork and leave an additional 4500Kg of pork alive. You need to feed them all and have land for them. I come up with 6*500*10=30000Kg of corn. That comes to 11.5 hectares, 462 man-hours. The land to graze the pork is 10*500/50 = 100 hectare, using 4000 man-hours. So the total land usage for just the pork is 111.5 hectare and requires 4462 man-hours a year. You need three people.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Your pork section is off. You are harvesting 500Kg of pork and leave an additional 4500Kg of pork alive. You need to feed them all and have land for them. I come up with 6*500*10=30000Kg of corn. That comes to 11.5 hectares, 462 man-hours. The land to graze the pork is 10*500/50 = 100 hectare, using 4000 man-hours. So the total land usage for just the pork is 111.5 hectare and requires 4462 man-hours a year. You need three people.

500kg/0.10=5000kg of pork on the hoof to cull 10% yearly.

5000kg*6Kg of corn = 30000Kg of corn. Animal feed.

30000/1300=23.07 /2 = 11.5 hectares of corn. 11.5 * 40 = 460 labor hours.

10*500Kg/50kg per hectare = 100 hectares for the herd. 100 hectares x 40 (TL D) = 4000 labor hours. 4000 labor hours for herding + 460 hours growing grain requires 4460 labor hours to raise hogs. 4460/2000= 2.23 farmers rounding up to three.

[ArmySGT.]

So what if I change it to turkeys and geese? Meat, feathers, grease.

10*50kg per person... 500kg of meat.

2.5*500 = 1250 kg grain to feed *10 (only 10% of the flock is consumed)= 12500kg of corn consumed as animal feed. 12500/1300= 9.6 hectares /2 = 4.8 hectares cultivated as corn for animal feed. 4.8*40 (hectares * TL D labor hours) = 192 labor hours.

10*500/115=43.8 hectares of range land. 43.8*40 (hectares*TL D hours)=1739 labor hours

192+1739 = 1931 labor hours for 500 kg of poultry.

[gbmaz]

I think it is awesome that this game inspires an in depth discussion of the economics system rather than a discussion along the lines of "The HP-35 is a stupid pistol, everyone knows the SOCOM .45 is the only pistol a real man would use. I totally kicked ass with it in Black Ops 3...."

[kalos72]

WOW! I just bought the 4thE....oh boy I am in trouble.

This much detail, way too cool. Now I have to rebuild all of east Texas with this. :P

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

So what if I change it to turkeys and geese? Meat, feathers, grease.

10*50kg per person... 500kg of meat.

2.5*500 = 1250 kg grain to feed *10 (only 10% of the flock is consumed)= 12500kg of corn consumed as animal feed. 12500/1300= 9.6 hectares /2 = 4.8 hectares cultivated as corn for animal feed. 4.8*40 (hectares * TL D labor hours) = 192 labor hours.

10*500/115=43.8 hectares of range land. 43.8*40 (hectares*TL D hours)=1739 labor hours

192+1739 = 1931 labor hours for 500 kg of poultry.

This matches my calculations. Less work, less land, birds win for the small land squatter. Now on to the extraction part of my spreadsheet......

[mmartin798]

Sgt, just did a quick experiment for you. You could raise beef and poultry to give your ranch some variety. The numbers are not too bad. (see attached)

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

This matches my calculations. Less work, less land, birds win for the small land squatter. Now on to the extraction part of my spreadsheet......

Have you done anything with mixing up the sources of meat?

Pigs and birds, Cows and birds?

[mmartin798]

Love it when great minds think alike....

Darn it, the calculations were not copied down. Here is the revised data. Not quite as pretty.

[mmartin798]

Took the ranch one step further and diversified the vegetables for the people and added some luxury items that can be used for fun and trade.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Took the ranch one step further and diversified the vegetables for the people and added some luxury items that can be used for fun and trade.

That is pretty awesome! Are you going to autosum the tables? Let the spreadsheet take care of the tallies?

[mmartin798]

Yes, I already have that happening in the Labor and Land summary on the second page. So far my spreadsheet modifies the labor pool numbers with the attributes and does the agriculture calculations. I should be able to get the extraction numbers working by tomorrow. Once done, I will release this as a tool to the group.

I am not making a click a button and generate a settlement tool. But it should let you easily figure out what your group can and cannot do with the people they have.

I do what opinions. When I do the calculations and come up with fractional workers, like the 1.38 in the last example, should it round up to 2 or would there be someone who would spend half their time helping on the farm? It would be easy enough to not round and assume there are people that have other chores.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Yes, I already have that happening in the Labor and Land summary on the second page. So far my spreadsheet modifies the labor pool numbers with the attributes and does the agriculture calculations. I should be able to get the extraction numbers working by tomorrow. Once done, I will release this as a tool to the group.

I am not making a click a button and generate a settlement tool. But it should let you easily figure out what your group can and cannot do with the people they have.

I do what opinions. When I do the calculations and come up with fractional workers, like the 1.38 in the last example, should it round up to 2 or would there be someone who would spend half their time helping on the farm? It would be easy enough to not round and assume there are people that have other chores.

I have so far been rounding fractional number up to a whole. I can't help thinking that the task is necessary.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

Where to use and how to apply the "Traits" modifier is confusing me too.

Did you make any headway on how to apply these?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by kalos72

WOW! I just bought the 4thE....oh boy I am in trouble.

This much detail, way too cool. Now I have to rebuild all of east Texas with this. :P

Texas gets lots of attention with Lonestar...

How about the SouthEast United States? There are no canon publications for that region. Someone on the ground that can flesh out the real locations and plausible outcomes.

What happens to Florida the coast lines and the swamps with a global cooling and a 20 meter drop in sea level?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by gbmaz

I think it is awesome that this game inspires an in depth discussion of the economics system rather than a discussion along the lines of "The HP-35 is a stupid pistol, everyone knows the SOCOM .45 is the only pistol a real man would use. I totally kicked ass with it in Black Ops 3...."

Heh, we have lots of those too.

[ArmySGT.]

What do you think of this suggestion?

Milk goats?

Dairy goat 75L for 0.5Kg equivalent of corn.

[ArmySGT.]

Homestead. (20 Persons)
Tech Level G (Multiplier 2)
Agriculture 20-50+% = 4
Mining, Manufacturing,
and Construction 18-25& =1
Distribution 9-17% =1
Other Services 20+% =1
Labor Pool 7
300Kg of Wheat per person, per year. 20x300Kg=6000Kg or equivalents
50kg of meat per person, per year. 20x50Kg= 1000Kg
150L of milk per person, per year. 20x150L= 3000L

Farming Tech level G
1000 hrs per Hectare
Farmer can harvest 2 Hectare per labor year (2000hrs)
Yield is 750Kg per Hectare

6000/750= 8 hectares of wheat. 8/2=4 farmers
Switch to Potatoes and corn= 4000/750=8 /5 = 1.6 Hectare. 2000/750= 2.66 /2 = 1.33 hectares
1.6 + 1.33= 2.93 hectares 2.93x1000 = 2930 labor hours or 3 farmers.

Lets add a vegetable garden Cabbage, carrots, onions, tomatoes, etc.
Potatoes 2000kg / 750kg = 2.66 hectares /5 = 0.53 hectares
Corn 2000kg /750 =2.66 hectares /2 = 1.33 hectares
Vegetables 2000kg /750 =2.66 hectares /7 = 0.38 hectares
0.53+1.33+0.38 = 2.24 hectares or 2240 labor hours.

More vegetables, less corn.
Corn 1000kg /750kg = 1.33 hectares /2 = 0.665 hectares
Potatoes 2000kg / 750kg = 2.66 hectares /5 = 0.53 hectares
Vegetables 3000kg /750 =4 hectares /7 = 0.57 hectares
0.665+0.53+0.57= 1.750 hectares or 1 farmer.

Live stock
Milk yield is 180 liter for 1Kg of corn. 3000L/180L= 16.6 hectares /2 = 8.3 hectares.
180Kg /750Kg = 0.24 Hectares /2 corn = 0.12 hectares
8.3+0.12 = 842 labor hours or 1 farmer (The dairyman also helps grow corn)

Meat…. Only poultry is going to work… if at all.
20x50Kg= 1000Kg to feed for one year.
2.5*1000*10= 25000kg of corn /750= 33.3 hectare (3330 labor hours)
20*1000/115= 173.9 hectares (3330+1739=5069 labor hours) 5 farmers.

All seven in the labor pool are fixated on food production.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Where to use and how to apply the "Traits" modifier is confusing me too.

Did you make any headway on how to apply these?

The traits apply to how many man-hours a single worker generates in a year. All the numbers for labor needed in Ag, Extraction, Manufacturing are based on a 2000 man-hour year. So 1 labor year = 2000 man-hours. But if discipline, curiosity or organization is high, then a single worker produces more than 2000 man-hours in a year. I did one example of a TL B town that was organized by members of one branch of the armed forces. I gave them organization and discipline both of 80%. This resulted in each worker producing 2360 man-hours annually rather than 2000. The traits also affect the number of workers from the population, again higher discipline giving a boost.

As an example, let's use the hypothetical ranch we have been using. If we up the discipline to 85%, we get a 14% Labor bonus (number of workers) and a 14% Labor hour bonus. Rather than the 5 workers producing 2000 man-hours per year each, this change gives us 6 workers producing 2280 man-hours per year each. It doesn't really change the fact we need 2 farmers with the extra productivity per worker, but we do get an additional worker.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

The traits apply to how many man-hours a single worker generates in a year. All the numbers for labor needed in Ag, Extraction, Manufacturing are based on a 2000 man-hour year. So 1 labor year = 2000 man-hours. But if discipline, curiosity or organization is high, then a single worker produces more than 2000 man-hours in a year. I did one example of a TL B town that was organized by members of one branch of the armed forces. I gave them organization and discipline both of 80%. This resulted in each worker producing 2360 man-hours annually rather than 2000. The traits also affect the number of workers from the population, again higher discipline giving a boost.

As an example, let's use the hypothetical ranch we have been using. If we up the discipline to 85%, we get a 14% Labor bonus (number of workers) and a 14% Labor hour bonus. Rather than the 5 workers producing 2000 man-hours per year each, this change gives us 6 workers producing 2280 man-hours per year each. It doesn't really change the fact we need 2 farmers with the extra productivity per worker, but we do get an additional worker.

Ok, I was wondering what percentage they were talking about...I though that the text was talking about the labor distribution percentage.

They mean the community traits, as listed, per each encounter group establishing that settlement..... Aka Krell, Ballooners, Badges, Frozen Chosen, etc.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

They mean the community traits, as listed, per each encounter group establishing that settlement..... Aka Krell, Ballooners, Badges, Frozen Chosen, etc.

Yes, though I get the feeling that those are average values for those groups and that there may be some variability in them. For instance, not all townspeople will be straight 50% across all traits everywhere.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

What do you think of this suggestion?

Milk goats?

Dairy goat 75L for 0.5Kg equivalent of corn.

I haven't been ignoring this, just doing some research. I did find data to support the bovine dairy numbers. In tropical regions with cow density at 1 per hectare grazing on pretty poor grass give between 120-300 Kg of milk per year (Milk is typically measured by weight wholesale), using 180 seems low but not total unreasonable. My data on goat production gives me about 1248 Kg per goat, but this is for goats in Oklahoma eating a high nutrition diet. Also, I am not sure how many goats per hectare is reasonable.

So I am still at odds what sounds good here.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

I haven't been ignoring this, just doing some research. I did find data to support the bovine dairy numbers. In tropical regions with cow density at 1 per hectare grazing on pretty poor grass give between 120-300 Kg of milk per year (Milk is typically measured by weight wholesale), using 180 seems low but not total unreasonable. My data on goat production gives me about 1248 Kg per goat, but this is for goats in Oklahoma eating a high nutrition diet. Also, I am not sure how many goats per hectare is reasonable.

So I am still at odds what sounds good here.

http://extension.psu.edu/business/ag...oat-production

http://www.milkproduction.com/Global...oatfarmers.pdf

[mmartin798]

That second PDF was really helpful. But my bovine research, to get a reference point, says the numbers in the chart for milk are no where near real world. Even if I were to assume 1 cow per hectare (real world is in the 2-4 range), we get 50Kg feed per cow per day and get annual milk yields of 1500-2300 Kg. That's ONE COW! Granted, we are assuming decent feed, but we are growing corn for them, so...

Ok, Goat can graze at a rate of about 6:1 compared to cows.
Goats eat about 2Kg/day
Goat give about 3Kg milk per day for 300 days, for about 900Kg/year
Goat are more prone to parasitic disease, so would require more care.
Bovine are under rated for yield in the book by about 10:1.
Bovine density in the book is 0.5 vs. about 3 rl.

For dairy goats, how does yield/hectare of 90Kg with 0.6 Kg corn to help account for the extra care they take to avoid disease?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

That second PDF was really helpful. But my bovine research, to get a reference point, says the numbers in the chart for milk are no where near real world. Even if I were to assume 1 cow per hectare (real world is in the 2-4 range), we get 50Kg feed per cow per day and get annual milk yields of 1500-2300 Kg. That's ONE COW! Granted, we are assuming decent feed, but we are growing corn for them, so...

Ok, Goat can graze at a rate of about 6:1 compared to cows.
Goats eat about 2Kg/day
Goat give about 3Kg milk per day for 300 days, for about 900Kg/year
Goat are more prone to parasitic disease, so would require more care.
Bovine are under rated for yield in the book by about 10:1.
Bovine density in the book is 0.5 vs. about 3 rl.

For dairy goats, how does yield/hectare of 90Kg with 0.6 Kg corn to help account for the extra care they take to avoid disease?

The less feed can account for goats are browsers and prefer leaves to grass stems.

Cows should be putting out more but, are dependent on grain for max yields. So maybe the 180 is a middle figure assuming more pasture and less grain?

Though why force you to grow corn? BTW cattle eat turnips and cabbage too.... also there is no in game factor for sillage, a bi product of raising corn which should reduce consumption by 1/3 of grain.

For cabbage and turnips you do (or should) grate the vegetable like you would for coleslaw...... there was even a foot powered tool that spun like a grinding wheel and you fed in cabbages from the side like a deli slicer.

[ArmySGT.]

Atleast Extraction goes together pretty simply....

Assuming you have any laborers... pick something that is reasonable for your location.

Laborers x Tech level output x material conversion factor.

Our tech level G homestead is struggling with everyone working night and day just to eat. The tech level D homestead make enough food that they have laborers engaged in other things.

So how about ..... Wood cutters supplying river boats with firewood for the steam boilers.....

2x5x0.125=1.25 or 625Kg of firewood per day.

Edit..... 500kg = a cubic meter.. The conversion factor for this is 1/8 or one eighth..... that just seems really, really low.... given saws, axes, mauls, and wedges have been around since antiquity. People fell, cut, split, and stack multiple cords in a day with unpowered tools. A cord of wood is 8 feet long by 4 feet wide by 4 feet high.. or 2.44m x 1.22m x 1.22m .... A rick is half a cord or 8 long x 2 by 2.