Norfolk Status: Going Home Time Frame

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by RN7

It clearly states a 1 Mt warhead was used on Norfolk/Portsmouth.

No. It doesn't. As indicated by the quotes I made from the books in my earlier posts.
It only says a total of 1MT which it specifically states in the notes "not necessarily as a single weapon". Notice I've once again quoted the books here.

Originally Posted by RN7

The individual yield of Soviet nuclear warheads deployed on their missiles during the Cold War is even today a matter of contention. Many Soviet missiles were MIRV capable, but I only know of one missile which specifically carried a 1.0 Mt warhead, and that was the SS-N-6 with a single warhead.

The R-36 is capable of carrying up to 10 warheads with 40 penetration aids (aka decoys). The warheads could be anywhere between 0.5MT and 25MT.
Note that two 0.5MT warheads adds up to the total 1MT dropped on Norfolk.
Also note that all other targets within the likely area of one of these missiles also received 0.5MT or a multiple of it. This fact reinforces the possibility of several warheads being dropped on Norfolk.
This is just one of several possible missiles which could have been used. There is nothing to say a ground based ICBM was in fact targeted to this area - could have been a boomer with a different set of warheads and payloads.

Originally Posted by RN7

They do but submarines, ships and aircraft...

Originally Posted by RN7

As for an air attack...

I only mentioned them as possibilities.

The whole point of my last few posts is that it's possible within a strict interpretation of the information we have that more than one warhead was used to attack Norfolk. Given a little research I believe that it is likely the missile used was probably an R-36M carrying eight (8) 0.5MT warheads. This missile also delivered warheads as far north as Washington DC. Likely targets in this particular scenario included:
Andrews AFB, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Fort Meade, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Camp David, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Arlington, VA: The Pentagon (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Quantico, VA: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Fort A.P. Hill, VA: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Norfolk/Portsmouth, VA: Atlantic Command Headquarters, port and facilities (1 Mt).

You'll note this adds up to exactly 8 of those 0.5MT warheads the R-36M carries and all those targets are within the likely throw range for the warheads from one missile.

Is this exactly how it happened? Who knows, but it's certainly plausible, and that is the entire point.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

No. It doesn't. As indicated by the quotes I made from the books in my earlier posts.
It only says a total of 1MT which it specifically states in the notes "not necessarily as a single weapon". Notice I've once again quoted the books here.

Howling Wilderness states ' The severity of the attack on each target point is represented by the megaton (Mt) rating of the weapons exploded there (not necessarily as a single weapon).'

So yes it may not have been a single weapon, but then again it may also have been one as the statement is ambiguous. However Howling Wilderness does not state what Soviet missile was launched at Norfolk/Portsmouth, nor does it tell us that it was a MIRV. There is only one Soviet warhead with a yield of 1 Mt and it was deployed on the SS-N-6 SLBM.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The R-36 is capable of carrying up to 10 warheads with 40 penetration aids (aka decoys).

Only the R-36UTTkh carried ten warheads and the yield of the warheads were 0.55 Mt. It was specifically designed and deployed to attack American ICBM silos and hardened targets. From 1988 it began to be replaced by the more accurate R-36M2 which also had ten warheads with yields of 0.55 or 0.75 Mt or higher according to Western estimates. The R-36M2 like the R-36UTTkh was designed and deployed specifically to attack American ICBM silos and hardened targets.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The warheads could be anywhere between 0.5MT and 25MT.

No they weren't. There was ten different models of the R-36 (SS-9 and SS-18) and they were specifically designed with either single warheads of high mega tonnage, or were designed as MIRV's with smaller warhead yields. The Soviets like everyone else did not mix and match the yields of the warheads on their MIRV's, all the warheads were of the same yield.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The whole point of my last few posts is that it's possible within a strict interpretation of the information we have that more than one warhead was used to attack Norfolk. Given a little research I believe that it is likely the missile used was probably an R-36M carrying eight (8) 0.5MT warheads.

Western sources estimated the yield of the R-36M's warheads at 0.6 Mt or 1.5 Mt. Also the R-36M had serious flaws in its post-boost vehicle design and was entirely replaced by the R-36UTTh from 1983.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

This missile also delivered warheads as far north as Washington DC. Likely targets in this particular scenario included:
Andrews AFB, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Fort Meade, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Camp David, MD: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Arlington, VA: The Pentagon (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Quantico, VA: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Fort A.P. Hill, VA: Presidential Emergency Facility (.5 Mt, ground burst).
Norfolk/Portsmouth, VA: Atlantic Command Headquarters, port and facilities (1 Mt).

You'll note this adds up to exactly 8 of those 0.5MT warheads the R-36M carries and all those targets are within the likely throw range for the warheads from one missile.

Not with an R-36M

[pmulcahy11b]

Just to throw a wrench in, the Russians were believed to have armed some of their ICBM warheads with biological warfare warheads.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Just to throw a wrench in, the Russians were believed to have armed some of their ICBM warheads with biological warfare warheads.

The Soviets had a very active and extensive biological warfare programme.

According to Jonathan Tucker of the Monterey Institute of International Studies the Soviets developed smallpox biological weapons that were intended for use against American cities, with the aim of killing the survivors in the aftermath of a nuclear exchange. U.S. intelligence officials said they were unaware of the plan until Soviet scientist Kanatjan Alibek defected in 1992, and is now the executive director of George Mason University’s Center for Biodefense in Virginia. But the U.S. had suspicions that one Soviet missile system had been modified to carry biological weapons; The SS-11 missiles had an oddly shaped warhead, and it was suspected it might be for biological weapons;

Tucker states that the SS-11, SS-13, SS-17 and SS-18 ICBM's were equipped with special biological weapon warheads over a 20-year-period. He also states that many of the missiles were based in silos near the Arctic Circle on a launch-ready status. The cold temperatures in the far north kept the smallpox agent viable for long periods. Tom Cochran of the Natural Resources Defense Council, which maintains a historical database of Soviet missile deployments, said that while there were no Soviet missile fields within 500 miles of the Arctic Circle. Four fields of SS-11, SS-13 and SS-17 missiles were located at northern latitudes of the Soviet Union during the period Alibek says the smallpox warheads were deployed. Those fields no longer exist as of 2001.

Tucker also states that Soviet engineers later developed special refrigerated warheads for the more modern SS-18, to enable the biological payload to survive the intense heat of re-entry through the atmosphere. A senior U.S. intelligence official at the time confirmed that U.S. spy satellites had detected a variant of the SS-11 missile warhead that had raised suspicions about biological weapons.

Alibek said the initial targets were New York, Seattle and Chicago, and that Boston was added to the list later. And American cities were not the only target. After 1968 Chinese cities also were placed on the target list. Alibek said he saw Gorbachev's signature on a Soviet Politburo document authorizing the production of smallpox for use in a war against the United States.

Tucker also states that the Soviet Union may have been responsible for distributing samples of the smallpox virus to other countries, including Iraq and North Korea, following the World Health Organization's eradication of the disease in the late 1970's. Tucker cites a U.S. National Security Council document as listing other possible recipients as China, Cuba, India, Iran, Israel, Pakistan and Yugoslavia.

However a lot of this is speculation. I would be certain that the Soviets did think about developing biological warheads for missiles and maybe even tinkered with a prototype or two. But I don't think there is any real evidence that the Soviet ever really deployed biological warheads on ICBM's.

[Targan]

Yes indeed, and the Soviets' weaponised anthrax production is now widely known of too. Literally dozens of TONS of it right up to the end of the Soviet Union. I'd like to point the finger and say 'evil, evil bastards' but I suspect all of the major powers during the Cold War had active biological weapons programs, and may well still have.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Targan

Yes indeed, and the Soviets' weaponised anthrax production is now widely known of too. Literally dozens of TONS of it right up to the end of the Soviet Union. I'd like to point the finger and say 'evil, evil bastards' but I suspect all of the major powers during the Cold War had active biological weapons programs, and may well still have.

America also had a very active biological warfare programme including anthrax among many other diseases, and there are allegations that the U.S used them during the Korean War and against Cuba in 1962, and maybe also in Vietnam. President Nixon ended all offensive aspects of the U.S. bio-weapons program in 1969. In 1975 the U.S. ratified both the 1925 Geneva Protocol and the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention (BWC). However there are allegations that the US Army is evading the BWC by conduction research into non-lethal biological weapons, and has researched the potential of entomological warfare ie. using insects as a weapon.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Targan

Yes indeed, and the Soviets' weaponised anthrax production is now widely known of too. Literally dozens of TONS of it right up to the end of the Soviet Union. I'd like to point the finger and say 'evil, evil bastards' but I suspect all of the major powers during the Cold War had active biological weapons programs, and may well still have.

Also of note to Targan and our Australian friends is that fact that Australia had a biological weapons programme and intended to use it.

Sir Frank Macfarlane Burnet who was the Director of the Walter and Eliza Hall Institute for Medical Research, and won the Nobel Prize for medicine in 1960 stated that...

"Specifically to the Australian situation, the most effective counter-offensive to threatened invasion by overpopulated Asiatic countries would be directed towards the destruction by biological or chemical means of tropical food crops and the dissemination of infectious disease capable of spreading in tropical but not under Australian conditions."

In 1951 it recommended that chemical and biological warfare research should be authorised to report on the offensive potentiality of biological agents likely to be effective against the local food supplies of South-East Asia and Indonesia.

Australia signed the BWC in 1972 and ended all Australian research into offensive biological weapons. However it should be noted that Australia has advanced research programs in immunology, microbiology and genetic engineering that support an industry providing world class vaccines for domestic use and export. It produces microorganisms on an industrial scale to support industries including agriculture, food technology and brewing. The dual-use nature of these facilities mean that Australia could easily produce biological warfare agents. Some disease research laboratories in Australia own strains of the Ebola virus. The Australian Microbial Resources Research Network lists 37 culture collections, many of which hold samples of pathogenic organisms for legitimate research purposes.

[Targan]

Well the CSIRO and associated government-funded bodies are right up there with the world's best scientists so they'd certainly have the capability. Heck, Australia joined the Blue Streak program with the understanding that we'd get our own nukes at the end, but the US thought Australia was a security risk and that we'd hand all the tech specs to the commies so they blocked it.

We've just commenced hostilities on the European carp and we're about to engage in some pretty nasty biological warfare against those scaly, gill-breathing bastards. Prepare for herpes carp-agedon, fishies!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I find a lot of this info quite interesting but ultimately, how does it gibe with the canon information? I haven't read the books for some time but knowing full well that when they were written there wasn't as much information available, I feel that any correct info we have found after the fact still needs to be tailored to suit the gameworld - otherwise we start to lose the flavour of the game that attracted us to it in the first place.

[JHart]

Seeing as I've lived in the Hampton Roads area for 30 odd years I thought I'd add my 2 cents.
In reading previous discussions on the board, my assumption follows.
If it is stated in canon that the fleet returning from "Going Home" makes port in Norfolk, it would seem to me that there is something to return to. It is canon that a nuke was dropped with the intent to hit the Atlantic Command HQ located at the Norfolk Naval base. If it was a direct hit, it certainly wouldn't do the base any good, but there are other port facilities, both military and commercial in the Hampton Roads area. Assuming no other nukes are dropped on military or civilian targets in the area, then it is conceivable the fleet would return to Norfolk rather than another port on the Eastern Seaboard.
If it is more than one weapon, the Soviets could sling nukes at some of the following targets:
Major: Newport News Shipbuilding and Norfolk Naval Shipyard (located across the river from Norfolk in Portsmouth) which are still worth hitting in the non all out nuclear exchange presented in the game. Hitting these two targets and hitting Bremerton effectively ends carrier building and major carrier repair for the foreseeable future.
Minor: Southside - Little Creek NAB, Oceana NAS, Chambers Field (part of Norfolk naval station), Ft Story various civilian shipyards. Peninsula - Langley AFB, Ft Eustis, Yorktown NWS, Camp Perry, various civilian shipyards.

Most of the minor targets, with perhaps the exception of the shipyards, wouldn't really be worth hitting in a non all out attack. Most personal, equipment and planes would presumably already be deployed. Whether the Soviets care or not is another story, but in might make a difference in tit for tat exchanges.

In an all out bolt from the blue attack, most of southeast Virginia would be glass. In a tit for tat nuke exchange their is some chance of survival.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Targan

We've just commenced hostilities on the European carp and we're about to engage in some pretty nasty biological warfare against those scaly, gill-breathing bastards. Prepare for herpes carp-agedon, fishies!

But think of all the potential gefilte fish you'll be wasting!!!
On second thought, having tried gefilte fish several times with unfortunate reviews each time, go ahead and massacre 'em!

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by JHart

If it is stated in canon that the fleet returning from "Going Home" makes port in Norfolk, it would seem to me that there is something to return to. It is canon that a nuke was dropped with the intent to hit the Atlantic Command HQ located at the Norfolk Naval base. If it was a direct hit, it certainly wouldn't do the base any good, but there are other port facilities, both military and commercial in the Hampton Roads area.

This is all true. The attack was an airburst (canon) so there's a chance some of the facilities not too close to ground zero would be still at least slightly usable (though the radiation might well put paid to that idea).

Originally Posted by JHart

If it is more than one weapon, the Soviets could sling nukes at some of the following targets:
Major: Newport News Shipbuilding and Norfolk Naval Shipyard (located across the river from Norfolk in Portsmouth) which are still worth hitting in the non all out nuclear exchange presented in the game. Hitting these two targets and hitting Bremerton effectively ends carrier building and major carrier repair for the foreseeable future.

Given the information available to the writers at the time (as SSC has pointed out), it would seem very likely two 500kt warheads were used, although it's possible they believed 250kt warheads were a possibility. The two locations you've identified look like prime targets for one of those warheads, and are certainly close enough to be considered part of the one single strike.

T2K was written in the 1980's while the cold war still "raged" and details were hard to come by. We should not be using information gathered since then to try and explain why the books are written the way they are, but as SSC mentioned, alter what we now know to fit the books.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

T2K was written in the 1980's while the cold war still "raged" and details were hard to come by. We should not be using information gathered since then to try and explain why the books are written the way they are, but as SSC mentioned, alter what we now know to fit the books.

Thanks for telling me what I should and should not be doing when it comes to how I play T2K Legbreaker, but I think I'll ignore your instructions and continue to interpret information as I wish.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Thanks for telling me what I should and should not be doing when it comes to how I play T2K Legbreaker, but I think I'll ignore your instructions and continue to interpret information as I wish.

Ah, well... perhaps we should all take a step back here and remember that everything posted here is based on personal preferences/beliefs/experience etc. etc. What's good for one may not be so good for another.
I tend to agree with Leg but I also have the opinion that he is not saying "You must all do it my way!" It seems that Western society has manufactured a culture of offence and people feel a need to take offence at the drop of a hat when none was ever intended.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

...he is not saying "You must all do it my way!"

Exactly right. Play the game the way you want, but in a public forum like this keep in mind that your way is not everyone's way and behave accordingly. Nobody has the right to demand others follow your own interpretation of the published materials, no matter how well you think you've thought it out and written it.

Now this particular thread started as a question on who, if anyone, was known to be stationed in the Norfolk region. The published materials on that are sparse at best and wide open for interpretation. This has led to a discussion on how many nukes were targeted at the area, and again, the information is limited to listing only a total payload delivered (1MT). Some disagree with my proposition that it was likely (I've never said definitely) multiple warheads, and that's their right, however the limited evidence seems to lean towards two 500kt warheads (nearby strikes are listed as 500kt, a likely launch vehicle carried 8 warheads of this yield, RN7 has stated to his knowledge differing yields were not carried on the same rocket, the 8 warheads fit very neatly into locations on the map with no overlap).

Now if somebody wants to say a single missile delivered a single 1MT warhead to Norfolk, I'm not going to flat out say they're wrong - could well be the case - but from my reading of the available information, two warheads are more plausible. There is nothing in the books to say either scenario is wrong.

If however somebody were to say (for example) twice that yield was dropped and then try to convince the rest of us they were right and the books totally wrong, well, then we'd have a problem wouldn't we...

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Exactly right. Play the game the way you want, but in a public forum like this keep in mind that your way is not everyone's way and behave accordingly. Nobody has the right to demand others follow your own interpretation of the published materials, no matter how well you think you've thought it out and written it.

You know Legbreaker I find all of this ironic considering it is you who has been arguing for a multiple nuclear strike against the Norfolk region.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The published materials on that are sparse at best and wide open for interpretation.

There is a detailed target list with the severity of the attack on each target represented by the megaton.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Some disagree with my proposition that it was likely (I've never said definitely) multiple warheads, and that's their right, however the limited evidence seems to lean towards two 500kt warheads (nearby strikes are listed as 500kt, a likely launch vehicle carried 8 warheads of this yield, RN7 has stated to his knowledge differing yields were not carried on the same rocket, the 8 warheads fit very neatly into locations on the map with no overlap).

Not quite here are the targets listed across this region...

Delaware City, DE (0.75 Mt)
Andrews AFB, MD (0.5 Mt)
Fort Meade, MD (0.5 Mt)
Camp David, MD (0.5 Mt)
Linden, NJ (1.5 Mt)
Perth Amboy, NJ (1 Mt)
Paulsboro, NJ (0.5 Mt)
Westville, NJ (0.5 Mt)
Arlington, VA (0.5 Mt) ground burst
Quantico, VA (0.5 Mt) ground burst
Norfolk, VA (1 Mt)

Also when I stated that the R-36M which carried 8 warheads was entirely replaced by the R-36UTTh from 1983, what part did you miss?

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Now if somebody wants to say a single missile delivered a single 1MT warhead to Norfolk, I'm not going to flat out say they're wrong - could well be the case - but from my reading of the available information, two warheads are more plausible. There is nothing in the books to say either scenario is wrong.

If however somebody were to say (for example) twice that yield was dropped and then try to convince the rest of us they were right and the books totally wrong, well, then we'd have a problem wouldn't we...

So the book says Norfolk was hit by a 1.0 Mt warhead, and then clearly list other targets that were hit by 0.5 Mt warheads. But I was wrong to quote GDW and have been trying to convince the rest of us about what the book stated which was totally wrong, and we should ignore what GDW stated to fit your idea that Norfolk was hit by a multiple MIRV strike carried on an ICBM which was retired in 1983.

[Targan]

Far be it for me to inject some logic into this increasingly tedious conversation, but might some of the disparity between the published T2K materials and the actual capabilities of the Soviet Union's nuclear arsenal and delivery systems lie with the fact that the writers were writing about fictional events in their (at the time) future, we now know far more about the Soviets' nuclear weaponry than the writers did, and there were changes and advancements in real-world Soviet nukes and delivery systems in the intervening time between the writing of the T2K materials and the future time in which they were set?

Given that situation, a GM is left with a number of options: ignore canon; assume that for the published materials to remain canon, only the weapons and delivery systems that the writers knew about can be assumed to have been in use during the T2K timeline; or integrate what we now know about the Soviets' real-world weapons and delivery systems into the timeline.

Unless all the participants in a debate such as this are on the same page with one of those options, the discussion is very likely to go round and round in circles with no-one feeling satisfied at the end. Ya feel me?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by RN7

You know Legbreaker I find all of this ironic considering it is you who has been arguing for a multiple nuclear strike against the Norfolk region.

Have you not read what I wrote? I have not claimed there absolutely were multiple warheads, just that's it's plausible!!!

Originally Posted by RN7

There is a detailed target list with the severity of the attack on each target represented by the megaton.

And in the accompanying notes, which I have already quoted several times, it states not necessarily as a single weapon.

Originally Posted by RN7

Not quite here are the targets listed across this region...

Delaware City, DE (0.75 Mt)
Andrews AFB, MD (0.5 Mt)
Fort Meade, MD (0.5 Mt)
Camp David, MD (0.5 Mt)
Linden, NJ (1.5 Mt)
Perth Amboy, NJ (1 Mt)
Paulsboro, NJ (0.5 Mt)
Westville, NJ (0.5 Mt)
Arlington, VA (0.5 Mt) ground burst
Quantico, VA (0.5 Mt) ground burst
Norfolk, VA (1 Mt)

Delaware city, Linden, Perth Amboy, Paulsboro, and Westville are all outside the probable area which one missile can deliver warheads. They are almost certainly a separate issue not relevant to Norfolk.
You will note that every other strike on your list is a multiple of 500KT - this fact lends weight to the possibility of them coming from one missile.

Originally Posted by RN7

Also when I stated that the R-36M which carried 8 warheads was entirely replaced by the R-36UTTh from 1983, what part did you miss?

The part where the GDW writers had access to updated information we do today?
The part where anything more modern is utterly irrelevant with respect to canon?

Originally Posted by RN7

So the book says Norfolk was hit by a 1.0 Mt warhead, and then clearly list other targets that were hit by 0.5 Mt warheads. But I was wrong to quote GDW and have been trying to convince the rest of us about what the book stated which was totally wrong, and we should ignore what GDW stated to fit your idea that Norfolk was hit by a multiple MIRV strike carried on an ICBM which was retired in 1983.

And again I quote for what must be the sixth time in this thread, and certainly the second in this post alone:

not necessarily as a single weapon

Yes, you are correct that the listing states 1MT, but you're ignoring the above quote in order to deny the possibility of a second (or even third, etc) warhead being used on the Norfolk area.
As previously stated there is no evidence to say there was more than one, just as there is no evidence to say there wasn't! It's a personal choice for the individual GM to decide. I've stated my belief with evidence as to why that it makes sense for two, you believe otherwise yet we're still to see anything from you besides cherry-picked information from the books, and irrelevant information available only after the books were written.

Please, if you've got something relevant and meaningful which doesn't rely on post publication information, lets hear it. Otherwise, lets just let this one go shall we?

[kalos72]

Ummm, hate to break up a good argument but...

We still have no clue what units/troops/equipment might be there to receive TF34.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

We still have no clue what units/troops/equipment might be there to receive TF34.

Correct. My guess is whatever Milgov managed to scrounge up and convince to occupy a location that still probably glows in the dark.

[kalos72]

Well, even that is not exactly consistent.

You have groups living in locations that have been nuked all through canon, why would Norfolk be any more irradiated then San Antonio for example?

Air bursts, to my limited knowledge, don't create much ground radiation.

How come I don't think this line of conversation will go any easier?

[Olefin]

Considering they brought them there when they could have sent them to the bases they have in New Jersey there had to be troops and facilities there that could support feeding and housing that many troops, let alone getting them re-organized back into fighting units.

Most likely were logistic units of various types along with military police units to keep order as well.

And can see one big reason to send them to Norfolk - which would be either for operations against CivGov troops in the Carolinas or possibly to move against the CivGov troops that were in Frederick - MilGov was previously lacking in troops to do anything about that but 43,000 troops would go a long way towards giving them a power base again in the Mid-Atlantic and Southern states

As for glow in the dark - if Warsaw is habitable and crops can be grown there after how many nukes it took then Norfolk definitely is as well - I don't see there being any lasting radiation in the area - especially with an airburst instead of a ground explosion

Also keep in mind just how big the area is around Norfolk and that we don't know the exact ground zero for the nuke - depending on where it went off there could be a lot of facilities that are still very useable

look at the tank plant in Ohio - if you look at HW that plant should have been nuked and gone - but if you look at the article on the tank plant in Challenge it survived intact - meaning that the nuke that hit the area was significantly off target or ground zero was nowhere near the plant -

and the base is huge - it wouldn't take much of a deviation for the nuke to leave large parts of it useable - if it went off right on top of the base it would leave the Naval Air Station and Virginia Beach untouched for instance

on the other hand if it went off over the Air Station then the naval base Is untouched - either way one single detonation is going to leave a lot of overall base area useable

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Have you not read what I wrote? I have not claimed there absolutely were multiple warheads, just that's it's plausible!!!

Yes I have and to be honest I don't really have a much of a problem with a multiple warhead strike on Norfolk, but I would prefer if it was a plausible one.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And in the accompanying notes, which I have already quoted several times, it states not necessarily as a single weapon.

And it doesn't state that it was not a single weapon, and why give a list of targets with different megaton yield used against them if they were trying to imply that they were all being deployed from one missile?

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Delaware city, Linden, Perth Amboy, Paulsboro, and Westville are all outside the probable area which one missile can deliver warheads. They are almost certainly a separate issue not relevant to Norfolk.

They are all located in the Middle Atlantic States according to Howling Wilderness. And yes they are all outside the probable area which one missile can deliver warheads, but they are in the same region as Norfolk.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The part where the GDW writers had access to updated information we do today?
The part where anything more modern is utterly irrelevant with respect to canon?

I haven't seen any reference by GDW that states that an R-36 (SS-18) missile was used on Norfolk, so why are you using the fact that GDW writers had access to updated information we do today when dismissing actual facts?

The missile (R-36M) which you are using as basis for a MIRV strike on Norfolk simply didn't exist by the time of the Twilight War. The reason it didn't exist was because its engineering design was flawed and the Soviet Union scrapped it and replaced it with the R-36UTTh in the mid-1980's and the R-36M2 from 1988. Both the R36UTTh and the R-36M2 were MIRV capable. But even if we ignore that the yields of the later two models warheads were not 0.5 Mt, both of these missiles were designed to hit hardened American ICBM silos not soft targets like Norfolk.

The rest......

You know in this post and the previous one your imply everything that you do yourself. In a post before that you used Wikipedia about the R-36 missile and Wikipedia didn't exist in the 1980's.

Norfolk is listed as been hit by a 1 MT strike. The Norfolk region is a big area and there are many other military and strategic targets in the Norfolk region but they are not listed as been hit by nuclear weapons. A 1 Mt warhead is a big nuclear warhead, it would have done enough damage on its own to destabilise the whole region.

[Raellus]

Hey guys, let's all just chill-the-ef-out, please.

These canon "debates" rarely lead to consensus. They've often led to user bans.

Sometimes you have to choose between being right and being a member of this community. Capiche?

Seriously, the game designers did the best that they could with the information that they had at the time. If it doesn't work now, it's up to the GM to "fix" it for his/her game world. Leave it at that. If one or two opinion posts don't change someone's mind, another dozen surely won't. Please leave the dead horse alone.

The Moderator Team

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

It seems that Western society has manufactured a culture of offence and people feel a need to take offence at the drop of a hat when none was ever intended.

How DARE you impugn Western Society's alleged oversensitivity! Flamethrowers at Dawn, Sir!

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Considering they brought them there when they could have sent them to the bases they have in New Jersey there had to be troops and facilities there that could support feeding and housing that many troops, let alone getting them re-organized back into fighting units.

Not necessarily.
When a force is sent overseas, they don't expect to have food and lodging ready and waiting for them do they?
It's possible TF34 included the logistical support they'd need for a month or so, although my guess is there was at least some sort of support already in place, otherwise they'd have probably landed somewhere less irradiated.
It's also worth noting from the mission orders:

Upon arrival Norfolk, selected units will remain in service, and the remainder stood down for muster out.

Sounds to me like the majority would be demobilised and sent on their merry way. Of course how many is completely up to individual interpretation.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Most likely were logistic units of various types along with military police units to keep order as well.

These are probably the most likely to remain active the longest.

Originally Posted by Olefin

... 43,000 troops would go a long way towards giving them a power base again in the Mid-Atlantic and Southern states.

Except as we know 43,000 were not kept in service. This issue has been discussed in quite a bit of depth in other threads.

Originally Posted by Olefin

As for glow in the dark - if Warsaw is habitable and crops can be grown there after how many nukes it took then Norfolk definitely is as well - I don't see there being any lasting radiation in the area - especially with an airburst instead of a ground explosion.

Yes, but the main reason people were living in Warsaw was the radiation - it scared other, more predatory types away. Also those who remained generally had a pre-nuke attachment to the area.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Also keep in mind just how big the area is around Norfolk and that we don't know the exact ground zero for the nuke - depending on where it went off there could be a lot of facilities that are still very useable.

Very true.
Take a look at the nuke effects map I linked to earlier in the thread and you can see the likely damage areas. Outside those areas there's still quite a few useful facilities, although it's likely many people would have fled in the immediate period after the nukes from fear of fallout and follow up strikes. Some may have filtered back if food, etc supplies could be guaranteed, but most would probably either die of starvation, disease, radiation, exposure, marauders, etc, or have resettled in a better area.

Originally Posted by Olefin

on the other hand if it went off over the Air Station then the naval base Is untouched - either way one single detonation is going to leave a lot of overall base area useable

Another reason why multiple warheads are more plausible than a single one. What Soviet commander would leave half of the home port for the Atlantic fleet still intact?

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the nuclear strike that the Soviets launched had a lot of holes in it - there were a lot of facilities that were never touched, a lot of targets left off the list - in other words it dovetails with a limited war as the creators of the game stated

This wasn't an all out strike hitting every target there was - if that was true then places like Niagara Falls and Hoover Dam would have been gone for sure just to take out the huge hydro facilities there, let alone the big list of army and navy bases that were never hit

As for what Soviet commander would leave the port possibly intact? Keep in mind what we know from Last Submarine as to an oversight - that's a pretty big base for subs and it was left intact

[Legbreaker]

Last Sub doesn't actually give us any information on Norfolk though, just that the sub is to be transported there once recovered.

[Olefin]

Which shows that Norfolk is operational enough to base the sub there and prep her for the European mission - its a priceless asset as are the people who are manning her - they aren't going to risk them to radiation poisoning - so that pretty much shows Norfolk as being relatively radiation free, at least to where the sub is.

You don't bring that sub to an area full of radiation, expose priceless nuclear techs to that as well as the last crew you have and the strike team going with it when you could have it go somewhere else instead.

By the way what I was really referring to was the fact that the Soviets never nuked the sub base in Connecticut - as per Last Submarine it was intact till a mob overran it and destroyed it - way past the TDM

[Olefin]

Oh and by the way I am not saying the base is mostly intact or the nuke missed big time or whatever - that base is huge - and you aren't looking at being able to operate a lot of ships by 2001 - you are probably looking at small to medium area of the base that is radiation free that was unaffected by the nuclear strike and still able to support operating a few destroyers and smaller craft and has at least a few piers that can take unloading and docking ships the size of the Omega Task Force ships - which would also be able to handle one nuclear sub as well

but not one that if the Atlantic Fleet was still as big as it was pre-war could be supported in any way from that remnant of the base