Storing Food in T2K

[swaghauler]

One company who's website should be visited is CMG. They produce canned meats with a shelf life of TEN YEARS (this is the same as "old school" MREs boys and girls). I have 4 cases of Bacon stashed away as I type this. Each can has a pound of Bacon in it, and it tastes EXACTLY like Sugardale Bacon. That's right, this "survival ration" is actually EDIBLE. The 10 year shelf life blows away the 2 year shelf life of normal canned goods. CMG has several foods available too.

[WallShadow]

Just thinking aloud--what would be the effect on MREs of being submerged in shallow water for 2.5 years?
At the time of TDM and Northern Jersey's refineries being hit, Bayonne was a major military logistical port. I imagine that ships moored at those docks would suffer major damage and probably sink.
Just how watertight are the MRE outer coverings? Could they withstand a depth of 30-50 feet within a cargo ship's hold? IF so, they would be kept cool and at a fairly even temperature range. And air would be excluded.
Any input from the MRE gurus as to how practical/silly this might be?

[Apache6]

Large numbers of MREs are usually shipped in CONEX boxes (8x20x8), which are usually waterproof. The individual packaging is pretty tough and I believe would survive 2.5 years underwater. The worst threat to MREs being stored is extreme heat, the underwater situation would at least prevent that.

If I'd been living on rat and dandelion stew for 2 years, I think that 3 year old MREs fished out of a sunken ship would be a delight.

I think salvaging a sunken transport could provide all kinds of great treasures for a PC group. The container next to the MREs might contain ammo, radio batteries and all kinds of other stuff.

Or it could be container after container of extreme cold weather gear destined for the Marines in Norway, which is not too useful for the PC group operating their coast guard cutter as a salvage ship out of the Florida keys.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

Just thinking aloud--what would be the effect on MREs of being submerged in shallow water for 2.5 years?
At the time of TDM and Northern Jersey's refineries being hit, Bayonne was a major military logistical port. I imagine that ships moored at those docks would suffer major damage and probably sink.
Just how watertight are the MRE outer coverings? Could they withstand a depth of 30-50 feet within a cargo ship's hold? IF so, they would be kept cool and at a fairly even temperature range. And air would be excluded.
Any input from the MRE gurus as to how practical/silly this might be?

Even normal canned goods (like Campbell's soup) are proofed against salt water immersion IF the food container is uncompromised. The cans can rust after about a year submerged in water but still be edible. The expiration date is a good indicator of how long it will take for a container to fail due to moisture. MREs are proofed HIGHER than canned goods against "moisture corrosion" or spoilage IF the package isn't punctured. They could sit on the ocean floor for 5 years and NOT SPOIL.

[WallShadow]

"Gold? &^%(#&~*@)!% the gold! There's _FOOD_ in them thar hulls!"

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

"Gold? &^%(#&~*@)!% the gold! There's _FOOD_ in them thar hulls!"

This forum needs a damned LIKE button.

[rcaf_777]

Canned Cheeseburger
Canned Rattlesnake
Canned Chicken
Canned Brown Bread
Canned Fried Chicken
Canned Creamed Armadillo
Canned Creamed Possum
Canned Sushi
The Candwich (Sandwitch in a can)
Spam
Spam with Bacon
Spam Turkey
Ribs in a Can
Canned Fish Mouths
Canned Silkworm Pupae
Aerosol Cheese
Canned Autralian Processed Cheese
Canned Butter
Canned Ground Beef
Ova Easy Egg Crystals
Yoder's canned meats
Dry Whole Milk Powder
Canned Chicken Breast
Preserved Dutch Butter (Salted Butter)
Canned Pulled Pork

[WallShadow]

I did a little research, the channels dredged up to the MOTB (Military Ocean Terminal at Bayonne) docks are indeed 50 feet.
And, with a little help from NukeMap v.2, the docks are within a heat flash radius that would cause 3rd degree burns to unprotected skin.
AND just to the south-by-west (that is, to the windward) there is a tank farm that is currently labelled "PDQ Plastics, Inc." A fire here would cast huge clouds of toxic smoke across the area.
If the Linden 1.25 M is off a little to the eastward, the whole thing gets even more ugly for the Terminal.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

Just thinking aloud--what would be the effect on MREs of being submerged in shallow water for 2.5 years?
At the time of TDM and Northern Jersey's refineries being hit, Bayonne was a major military logistical port. I imagine that ships moored at those docks would suffer major damage and probably sink.
Just how watertight are the MRE outer coverings? Could they withstand a depth of 30-50 feet within a cargo ship's hold? IF so, they would be kept cool and at a fairly even temperature range. And air would be excluded.
Any input from the MRE gurus as to how practical/silly this might be?

I would ask Medic to chime in here as well, but most containers (and people) are pretty resistant to pressure down to 4 atmospheres (about 40 meters or slightly more than 135 ft in depth). Depending on the contents of a can, it could be pressure resistant to VERY SIGNIFICANT depths. As I have stated above, 1 Atmosphere is equal to 10 meters/33.9 (34ft) feet in depth.

[Bullet Magnet]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

As I have stated above, 1 Atmosphere is equal to 10 meters/33.9 (34ft) feet in depth.

Actually, 1.0 atmospheres is sea level. However, you are correct that for each (approximately) 10 meters under the surface of the water, you add another 1.0 atmospheres. So, at 10 meters below water, it would actually be 2.0 Atm.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Bullet Magnet

Actually, 1.0 atmospheres is sea level. However, you are correct that for each (approximately) 10 meters under the surface of the water, you add another 1.0 atmospheres. So, at 10 meters below water, it would actually be 2.0 Atm.

Glad you caught that. I was a little rushed as I was waiting to unload. It should actually be 1 Atmosphere INCREASE per 10 meters of WATER DEPTH. This is important because the Specific Gravity of a fluid can change the pressure (in Atmospheres) at depth. For instance, if you were to dive down a 100-meter shaft filled with a liquid chemical denser than water, the pressure would be greater.

[swaghauler]

Solar dehydrating is the most economical method of preserving food for the long term. Only smoking meat requires fewer resources to preserve food.

The best "homemade" dehydrator I ever saw was comprised of:

1 solar blanket
1 bug net
2 saw horses
2 old aluminum framed screen doors

The screen doors were laid flat on the saw horses to form a rack on which the food was "sandwiched" in between them on wax paper with 1" gaps between the lines of wax paper (for air flow). The solar blanket was attached to the back of the doors (where the hinges had been) and laid to the ground under the feet of the saw horses to reflect the sunlight upwards from underneath the two doors. The bug netting was laid over top of the two doors to act as an extra layer of bug/bird protection. The solar blanket would ramp the temperature up on the screen doors to over 120F degrees. The aluminum would absorb and hold the heat. It would dehydrate tomatoes in a day. It was also used to dry seeds for the following year's garden.

Cars would also make good dehydrators. Just put racks in the cabin, crack the windows and cover them with bug nets to protect the food. The interior of a car will easily exceed the 105F to 118F heat needed for dehydration.

Dehydrating Food In Twilight2000:

Dehydrating food is a skill Easy(2 X Skill): Survival and takes 24 to 48 hours depending on the food item being dehydrated. If stored properly in a dry place at 72F/22C, the food will remain fresh for 1D6+6 months.

Temperature and Food Storage:

Most food using pre-industrial storage/preservation methods will last the longest when stored in a dry place at 72F/22C. A change in temperature of just 20F/11C will double or halve the shelf life of the food in question. At 52F/11C, the food will last TWICE AS LONG. At 92F/33F, the shelf life of stored food will BE HALVED.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Solar dehydrating is the most economical method of preserving food for the long term. Only smoking meat requires fewer resources to preserve food.
<SNIP>
Cars would also make good dehydrators. Just put racks in the cabin, crack the windows and cover them with bug nets to protect the food. The interior of a car will easily exceed the 105F to 118F heat needed for dehydration.

I sometimes dried my sage, basil, and catnip by placing them in the car in paper bags on a hot day. The bags allowed airflow but kept the sun directly off the herbs.

Hmmmm...with a little fudging and jackleg mechanic work---cut several panels out of the car roofs and trunk lids, insert scavanged windshields, maybe install a remote watering supply system--IV tubes or aquarium tubing leading to individual pots or beds. You can make mobile greenhouses to extend your growing/seedling-planting season. Mobile in the sense that if you release the parking brake, the greenhouse can be steered out of shadow into afternoon light.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I got that idea from the thread on Cuisine. We are all concerned about what to eat but what about storing it. With electrical power gone, you can forget about fridge.

Here are some methods I can think of:

- Salting or smoking would be the first one but that is working only for fish and meat.

- For the fruits you can make Jam, plunge them in alcohol or dry them.

- You can use canned food but finding the right container might quickly be a problem.

- For some fruits such as apple, you can store them in specific type of buildings (that's fairly simple) under proper conditions (that's also true for potatoes).

- Another interesting thing (providing that the weather gets colder) would be to build an ice well. A well (15-20 meters deep) that you slowly fill with water during winter. Then, you'll have ice during the warm period.

Of course, you also have to protect your storage from all type of scavangers (small animals, insects, humans...)

Do you have any more ideas or do you know any other method?

Initially those Ball jars and lids will probably be the only thing left on the looted or cleaned out store shelves., later, people might be pouring wax on top of food in a variety of bottles and jars, paraffin and the like will be worth their weight to stash away.

[Draq]

https://youtu.be/E7_f-jmmGdQ I'm reposted this from cuisine thread in case someone missed it. There's a tone of these, and he's just one of many ration/nre reviewers. The us Korean war b1&b2 unit episode is the best. Best example of food keeping, and going bad.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Initially those Ball jars and lids will probably be the only thing left on the looted or cleaned out store shelves., later, people might be pouring wax on top of food in a variety of bottles and jars, paraffin and the like will be worth their weight to stash away.

And pressure cookers/canners and extra gaskets and weights. Seeing how food can be quickly cooked in a pressure cooker, this would be helpful in fuel savings. Hmmm...multiple focused solar reflectors plus pressure cooker = fuelless rapid cooker?

Someone has already pointed out that paraffin sealing of jars is only suitable for high-sugar jams and such. You can't preserve veggies that way. Veggies, especially non-acidic ones, need to be pressure canned with good seals. Elsewise, food poisoning or worse: my Junior-High science teacher taught us that the best way to kill yourself is to poorly-can stringbeans, because they have a tendency to generate botullism toxin. Maybe a good way of creating paralyzing poison for a blowgun dart? Or would the required dosage be rather large?

[swaghauler]

Canning is a method of food preservation that has been around since the Napoleonic Wars. It uses a "three piece" jar consisting of a wide mouth mason jar, an inner lid, and a threaded lid that holds the expandable inner lid in place. Everything but the inner lid is reusable. Just increase the item's wear value by 1 for each use until it EXCEEDS 10 (at which point it is unusable).

Water Bath Canning:

This system uses boiling water to seal the canning jars and preserve the food. It requires that the food be acidic in nature to prevent the growth of bacteria as the seal on Water Bath cans is not as strong as pressure canning. Common items that can be Water Bath canned would be:
-Fruit
-Pickles
-Tomatoes

* NEVER use an Aluminum, Copper or Iron pot to boil the jars. A chemical reaction can occur that will ruin your food (or at least discolor it). A Stainless Steel pot is the number one choice here.

To Water Bath can you place the jars in a pot so that water can circulate COMPLETELY around the jars (there are special racks that fit in pots for this) as well as over the top of them. You must leave room in the jars for expansion of the food and water in them. You will boil for about 30 Minutes (varies with altitude) and remove the cans from the pot and let them sit. The jars will "hiss" and "pop" as the inner lids expand and form a vacuum seal. The jars should be allowed to sit and "settle" for 24 hours. This allows the pressure inside the jar to equalize with the outside. You will know if the process was successful if you press on the inner lid (the part that expands) and it DOESN'T move. This means the seal is good. A lid that moves has a bad seal and must be used in just 1D6 days.

Raw/Cold Packed Vegetables: These vegetables will have air trapped inside the food that can escape and cause spoilage. You may store cold packed vegetables for 1D3 Months before they will begin to spoil.

Hot packed Vegetables: These are vegetables that have been cooked (eliminating the air inside the food) and then Water bath canned. These vegetables will last for 1D10 Months before spoilage will begin to set in.

Pressure Canning:

This can be used for ALL foodstuffs as the pressure creates a MUCH STRONGER SEAL than Water Bath Canning. The preparation is exactly the same for Water Bath Canning but you must boil the food in a pressure cooker at a pressure based on your altitude for 10 Minutes. The jars must then settle like those above. They can be checked just like Water Bath jars BUT BE CAREFUL! PRESSURE SEALED JARS CAN EXPLODE IF JOSTLED TOO MUCH. I let them sit for at least 30 minutes before handling them. Any "exploding" food jars will be spectacular but not really capable of causing injury to anyone at least a meter away. The food will be ruined by glass shards, though. Pressure Canned foods will last for 1D6+6 Months when stored in a cool (72F/22C) dry place.

Canning: This is a task Easy(2 X Skill): Cooking, or Routine(1.5 X Skill): Survival. Failure means the food is cooked and must be consumed before it spoils.

Canning Kits:

21 Quart Water Bath Canning Kit: Contains 1 Stainless Steel Pot, 7 Jar Rack, a Wide Mouth Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $60 (V/V), Wt: 4kg, Bulk: 10.

10 Quart Pressure Canning Kit: Contains 1 Pressure (4 1-Quart Jars/7 Pint Jars) Vessel, Rack, Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $259 (V/V), Wt: 6kg, Bulk 10.

30 Quart Pressure Canning Kit: Contains 1 Pressure Vessel (14 1-Quart Jars/19 Pint Jars), Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $379 (C/C), Wt: 12Kg, Bulk 30.

1-Quart Canning Jars With Lids (1 dozen): Price: $25 (V/V), Wt: 2Kg, Bulk: 3 each jar.

1-Pint Canning Jars With Lids (1 dozen): Price: $14 (V/V), Wt: 1Kg, Bulk: 1 per jar.

as always, use what you will and ignore the rest.

Swag.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Apache6

If I'd been living on rat and dandelion stew for 2 years, I think that 3 year old MREs fished out of a sunken ship would be a delight.

I'll remind you that according to Traveller:2300, one of teh dew positive outcomes of the Twilight War was that humanity discovered how tasty rat was; it was still a favored dish in 2300 - well after the Twilight War.

Uncle Ted

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by unkated

I'll remind you that according to Traveller:2300, one of teh dew positive outcomes of the Twilight War was that humanity discovered how tasty rat was; it was still a favored dish in 2300 - well after the Twilight War.

Uncle Ted

And the meat farms on Aurora (Kafer Dawn) were stocked with rabbits, and guinea pigs, which are enormously efficient in meat to bone percentage. Rats, I'd imagine, are pretty close.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

The Candwich (Sandwitch in a can)

I would be afraid to let her out. Unlikely that she went in willingly.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

And pressure cookers/canners and extra gaskets and weights. Seeing how food can be quickly cooked in a pressure cooker, this would be helpful in fuel savings. Hmmm...multiple focused solar reflectors plus pressure cooker = fuelless rapid cooker?

Someone has already pointed out that paraffin sealing of jars is only suitable for high-sugar jams and such. You can't preserve veggies that way. Veggies, especially non-acidic ones, need to be pressure canned with good seals. Elsewise, food poisoning or worse: my Junior-High science teacher taught us that the best way to kill yourself is to poorly-can stringbeans, because they have a tendency to generate botullism toxin. Maybe a good way of creating paralyzing poison for a blowgun dart? Or would the required dosage be rather large?

Also MRE's found at 29 Palms by civilian cleaning crews have poisoned more than a few.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Also MRE's found at 29 Palms by civilian cleaning crews have poisoned more than a few.

Must have been GEN 1 MREs. They were REALLY HORRENDOUS!!! The drill Sergeants would give us C-Rations with them because you would open them up and 50% of the time mold spores would "explode" from the package. The "pork patty" and the "beef patty" BOTH tasted EXACTLY THE SAME...like Soy.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Must have been GEN 1 MREs. They were REALLY HORRENDOUS!!! The drill Sergeants would give us C-Rations with them because you would open them up and 50% of the time mold spores would "explode" from the package. The "pork patty" and the "beef patty" BOTH tasted EXACTLY THE SAME...like Soy.

Didn't you pay attention to the "Front--Toward Enemy" label on those Biological Warfare units?

[aspqrz]

Some of you may (or may not) know of the following two actual cases -

1) A London based Providore had taken over an older company (late 80's or early 90's IIRC) and was clearing out its old warehouse. At the very back (or in an out of the way corner) were a quantity of rough packing crates. On opening them, they found rusty cans ... but ones that had not popped (aka 'blown' ... gone off) ... but no labelling.

No one knew their provenance. But, after some searching, they discovered the cans were of Crimean War vintage. They had one of the London based Universities open some of the cans to run tests ... they found that inside was a Beef Broth which, though it was a bit rusty (these were iron cans, not galvanised or plastic coated on the inside) it was perfectly safe.

No. None of the scientists were game to eat it, but they were sure it wasn't contaminated ... they also weren't sure how much caloric value it had, but figured not all that much.

A lot of 'use by' dates are polite fictions ... Chocolate, for example, has one (here in Oz, anyway) ... but Chocolate that's foil wrapped doesn't go off within your lifetime or mine. Worst that happens is that it goes rock hard and develops a milky brown surface skin, but remains perfectly edible.

So you can assume that properly (or fortuitously) stored canned goods will last a lot longer than the Use By date would suggest ... a heck of a lot longer.

2) In Darwin during WW2 a new officer was taking over as Supply Officer on a Bathurst class Corvette and (either a really dumb move or a really smart one, depending) insisted on doing a full inventory before he signed off on receipt.

In one of the vessel's storerooms was a wooden keg. Marked with a broad arrow (aka 'HMG issue'). With what they thought was a serial number. 1815. Couldn't figure out what the heck it was, so they opened it ... inside was salt meat in brine. Still looked good, though the bits that stuck up over the then level of the brine were ... well, mummified. They realised that they '1815' was the YEAR it had been laid down.

As far as they could figure it had been kicked from ship to ship as an old one decommissioned and a new one took on stores ... since 1815.

So don't assume that preserved foods of any sort will go off as fast as the Use By date regime in your country implies they will.

Phil

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Canning is a method of food preservation that has been around since the Napoleonic Wars. It uses a "three piece" jar consisting of a wide mouth mason jar, an inner lid, and a threaded lid that holds the expandable inner lid in place. Everything but the inner lid is reusable. Just increase the item's wear value by 1 for each use until it EXCEEDS 10 (at which point it is unusable).

Water Bath Canning:

This system uses boiling water to seal the canning jars and preserve the food. It requires that the food be acidic in nature to prevent the growth of bacteria as the seal on Water Bath cans is not as strong as pressure canning. Common items that can be Water Bath canned would be:
-Fruit
-Pickles
-Tomatoes

* NEVER use an Aluminum, Copper or Iron pot to boil the jars. A chemical reaction can occur that will ruin your food (or at least discolor it). A Stainless Steel pot is the number one choice here.

To Water Bath can you place the jars in a pot so that water can circulate COMPLETELY around the jars (there are special racks that fit in pots for this) as well as over the top of them. You must leave room in the jars for expansion of the food and water in them. You will boil for about 30 Minutes (varies with altitude) and remove the cans from the pot and let them sit. The jars will "hiss" and "pop" as the inner lids expand and form a vacuum seal. The jars should be allowed to sit and "settle" for 24 hours. This allows the pressure inside the jar to equalize with the outside. You will know if the process was successful if you press on the inner lid (the part that expands) and it DOESN'T move. This means the seal is good. A lid that moves has a bad seal and must be used in just 1D6 days.

Raw/Cold Packed Vegetables: These vegetables will have air trapped inside the food that can escape and cause spoilage. You may store cold packed vegetables for 1D3 Months before they will begin to spoil.

Hot packed Vegetables: These are vegetables that have been cooked (eliminating the air inside the food) and then Water bath canned. These vegetables will last for 1D10 Months before spoilage will begin to set in.

Pressure Canning:

This can be used for ALL foodstuffs as the pressure creates a MUCH STRONGER SEAL than Water Bath Canning. The preparation is exactly the same for Water Bath Canning but you must boil the food in a pressure cooker at a pressure based on your altitude for 10 Minutes. The jars must then settle like those above. They can be checked just like Water Bath jars BUT BE CAREFUL! PRESSURE SEALED JARS CAN EXPLODE IF JOSTLED TOO MUCH. I let them sit for at least 30 minutes before handling them. Any "exploding" food jars will be spectacular but not really capable of causing injury to anyone at least a meter away. The food will be ruined by glass shards, though. Pressure Canned foods will last for 1D6+6 Months when stored in a cool (72F/22C) dry place.

Canning: This is a task Easy(2 X Skill): Cooking, or Routine(1.5 X Skill): Survival. Failure means the food is cooked and must be consumed before it spoils.

Canning Kits:

21 Quart Water Bath Canning Kit: Contains 1 Stainless Steel Pot, 7 Jar Rack, a Wide Mouth Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $60 (V/V), Wt: 4kg, Bulk: 10.

10 Quart Pressure Canning Kit: Contains 1 Pressure (4 1-Quart Jars/7 Pint Jars) Vessel, Rack, Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $259 (V/V), Wt: 6kg, Bulk 10.

30 Quart Pressure Canning Kit: Contains 1 Pressure Vessel (14 1-Quart Jars/19 Pint Jars), Funnel, Ladle, Lid Wand, and Tongs. Jars are NOT included. Price: $379 (C/C), Wt: 12Kg, Bulk 30.

1-Quart Canning Jars With Lids (1 dozen): Price: $25 (V/V), Wt: 2Kg, Bulk: 3 each jar.

1-Pint Canning Jars With Lids (1 dozen): Price: $14 (V/V), Wt: 1Kg, Bulk: 1 per jar.

as always, use what you will and ignore the rest.

Swag.

What is your thought on the reusable canning jar lids? I do not can, but know some who do, and they are about 50-50 on saying they suck, or are the best thing ever.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by CDAT

What is your thought on the reusable canning jar lids? I do not can, but know some who do, and they are about 50-50 on saying they suck, or are the best thing ever.

My wife and I took a canning and preserving class presented by the Penn State Agricultural Extension, and their take on the matter was one lid, one use. If there's a reuseable form of lid, they didn't mention it.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

My wife and I took a canning and preserving class presented by the Penn State Agricultural Extension, and their take on the matter was one lid, one use. If there's a reuseable form of lid, they didn't mention it.

There are, here is the first link I found to it (also I think a photo of it.)
https://www.lehmans.com/product/reus...FRSEfgodqVYLjA

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Must have been GEN 1 MREs. They were REALLY HORRENDOUS!!! The drill Sergeants would give us C-Rations with them because you would open them up and 50% of the time mold spores would "explode" from the package. The "pork patty" and the "beef patty" BOTH tasted EXACTLY THE SAME...like Soy.

No, it still happens since MRE's are "wet pack", the temperature turns their shelf life to months. A few supply sergeants have been jailed for failure to rotate stock and poisoning troops also. I think they are getting the message, the citizens, don't listen. A cache of bad food can start any number of plots. Stolen bad rations being used to undermine reconstruction efforts, looking for medical help, etc.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

My wife and I took a canning and preserving class presented by the Penn State Agricultural Extension, and their take on the matter was one lid, one use. If there's a reuseable form of lid, they didn't mention it.

I've never used them either. I knew they existed because I've seen ads for them. I Pressure Can just like Mom and Grandma taught me to as a kid. If it's not broken, I don't fix it.

[LT. Ox]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I've never used them either. I knew they existed because I've seen ads for them. I Pressure Can just like Mom and Grandma taught me to as a kid. If it's not broken, I don't fix it.

GOLDEN RULE