Sawed off M79

[Legbreaker]

That's still only 20 pellets.
When was the APERs round developed?

[pmulcahy11b]

That's idea I get about the sawed-off M-79. "IN YOUR FACE! (Boom!) GIT THE F**K OUTTA HERE!"

[Panther Al]

Especially if you have - and you should - a plan in place for some CMA (Cover My Ass) shoots.

Before you go out on patrol, you get with your gunbunnies and pick out a dozen or so points where you are planning to be patrolling. Each pair of points (and they do come in pairs) are about 3 to 5 minutes run from each one, in a nice arrow straight line.

So, lets pick up on our hapless party:

They decided that the company that just got a face full of metal is more than they can chew. A claymore set up like ArmySGT said buys a few more seconds - and more importantly, instills some caution in the chasers - while they haul ass. The RTO gets on the horn, and informs higher, and then as they get near one of the pre plotted points, calls up the guns: "Redleg, greenleg, CMA Shoot!" (Or something to that nature, overseas our calls was pretty much that - we didn't have time for a drawn out procedure in this sort of thing) Because, before hand, they made arrangements that calling for this is a lot like asking for FPF: You get to go to the head of the line. They will respond saying they are getting set up. Once you reach the first of the two points, you call up again, saying that you are passing point Alpha. By this times the guns should be up, oriented on target, and waiting for the word to fire. You haul ass harder: In fact, you don't care of they see you now, because that just draws them closer. You cross Point Bravo.. keep hauling, and call out you passed it. At which point the arty fills a 50m wide rectangle between A and B. If they was close, they are not so close anymore. And if they wasn't close enough to get caught, they are very much stopping to think things over.


Always have a GO To Hell Plan.

[Targan]

No question, a cut down M-79 would be a potent tool as part of spec ops point blank break contact drills. But as I'm sure many here already know, groups like SOG were (and most likely still are) incredibly aggressive when it comes to immediate action drills in the event of close-in ambushes. Their intra-unit tactics are finely honed, they carry much heavier overall firepower than similarly sized regular infantry units and (as has been previously mentioned) their general response to close-in surprise contact is to empty entire mags at the enemy and either withdraw in 2-by-2 fire and movement or push through and close with the enemy with the intent of utterly destroying a small enough opposing force.

Terrifyingly efficient. Now that's how to apply shock and awe on a small unit basis.

[Raellus]

Besides time-delay fuses for frags and Claymores, SOG would often carry CS gas grenades to strew in their wake, and occasionally "toe-popper" anti-personnel mines as well, to disuade/hinder pursuit.

When there's only 7-8 or you in the middle of an NVA regimental staging area, district rest camp, or road-repair unit guard detail, with specially trained NVA hunter-killer teams actively searching for you, no artillery support, and air support (if available) is an hour away, you learn to employ every trick in the book.

IMHO, SOG recon team members were some of the ballsiest warriors ever.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That's still only 20 pellets.
When was the APERs round developed?

40mm M576 APers round - developed in 1966 and used in the Vietnam War.
I believe there is a more modern version but I can't find any info on the net at the moment <Google-fu is not strong today>

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

40mm M576 APers round - developed in 1966 and used in the Vietnam War.
I believe there is a more modern version but I can't find any info on the net at the moment <Google-fu is not strong today>

Hint.

[rcaf_777]

Personally I think this Pump Action M-79 GL made for the Seals in Vietnam would work better for breaking contact, a little heavier but now you can mix and match for 40mm rounds

[DCausey]

Me Likey.

Does it have 1+1 rounds? That would be a surprise for people just expecting one!

[Adm.Lee]

For what it's worth, I copied this from For Your Eyes Only

October 20, 2011: U.S. soldiers and Marines are using a new magazine for the 40mm grenades they fire from their single shot M203 and M320 grenade launchers. The MAG-D looks like a large rifle magazine. It is spring loaded and holds five 40mm rounds. Troops can easily pull a 40mm grenade from the MAG-D and load it into their weapon. A loaded MAG-D weighs less than three kg (6.6 pounds) each and is designed to hang from the webbing of the protective vest, and make additional rounds quickly available to troops carrying a rifle with a M203 or M320 attached (under the barrel). In the past, the 40mm rounds were carried loose or in bandoliers, and often got dirty or damaged. MAG-D also eliminates confusion about where different types of 40mm grenades are (high explosive, flare, smoke, tear gas, fuel-air explosive). U.S. Marines were the first to use MAG-D (which was invented by a former Marine) and want more of them.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Personally I think this Pump Action M-79 GL made for the Seals in Vietnam would work better for breaking contact, a little heavier but now you can mix and match for 40mm rounds

I've read that it was heavy, slow to reload once empty, and just generally didn't work very well (not sure exactly why)- the few that saw field testing quickly got left behind in the team armory during ops.

[bobcat]

the china lake holds 3+1 rounds of M381 HE

sorry can't mix and match plus it weighs almost twice as much as an M79 and as has already been said is slow to reload.

[Panther Al]

Yep, thats the one as Bobcat said.

Neat concept, but really, was a solution looking for a problem. Too heavy and bulky to be really useful.

[HorseSoldier]

October 20, 2011: U.S. soldiers and Marines are using a new magazine for the 40mm grenades they fire from their single shot M203 and M320 grenade launchers. The MAG-D looks like a large rifle magazine. It is spring loaded and holds five 40mm rounds

That looks kind of miserable to wear around. I think I'll stick with my individual 40mm pockets if I find myself hauling an M203/320 around.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

That looks kind of miserable to wear around. I think I'll stick with my individual 40mm pockets if I find myself hauling an M203/320 around.

I am with you. Looks kinda bulky. If it is quicker to load from ok. However Bandoliers carry more.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I am with you. Looks kinda bulky. If it is quicker to load from ok. However Bandoliers carry more.

Looks like it's worth trialling anyway. Possibly as a replacement belt mounted ammo pouch...
Looks to be smaller than the 200 round Minimi pouches we were issued, so I'm not seeing bulk as a particularly big issue.

[bobcat]

build me a grenade launcher that takes that as a magazine. then throw together some Merc 2K stats for it.

what i like the idea of a mag fed GL almost as much as the fools in the bulleye building.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by bobcat

build me a grenade launcher that takes that as a magazine. then throw together some Merc 2K stats for it.

what i like the idea of a mag fed GL almost as much as the fools in the bulleye building.

XM25 Grenade Launcher

In Action

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Please note: I'm not criticising the weapon or it's intended use or it's intended users, I'm criticising the stupidity in the statements made about it.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

XM25 Grenade Launcher

In Action

I love the spin (i.e. sensationalist bullshit) reporters put on things and the complete lack of research they do these days and Fox news are some of the best of the worst (and I don't mean that as a compliment)...

"Since the dawn of modern warfare, the best way to stay alive in the face of incoming fire has been to take cover behind a wall. But thanks to a game-changing "revolutionary" rifle, the U.S. Army has made that tactic dead on arrival. Now the enemy can run, but he can't hide."

Yeah I know what they mean, when those pesky badguys hid behind a wall in the past, we were completely screwed! We'd have to "make do" with grenade launchers and mortars or we'd shoot through the wall with machineguns or use a LAW rocket, a passing tank or some other novelty to put a hole in the wall.
Thanks to this "game-changing" rifle I won't have to do that any more... oh, but then again, I'm gonna be screwed if they do the Chechen trick, i.e. hide under fallen rubble and use car jacks to lift the block they're hiding under so they have a firing slit, then drop the rubble when they receive incoming fire

"With this weapon system, we take away cover from [enemy targets] forever," Lehner told FoxNews.com on Wednesday. "Tactics are going to have to be rewritten. The only thing we can see [enemies] being able to do is run away."

Yeah, that's right, cos nobody will have the ingenuity to figure out a way to protect themselves, oh hang on a second, there's still that Chechen trick... It's foolish to downright irresponsible to teach people that sort of rubbish, that one new toy will give them complete power over the enemy. For every system someone develops, there's someone who makes a counter to the system.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Please note: I'm not criticising the weapon or it's intended use or it's intended users, I'm criticising the stupidity in the statements made about it.


I love the spin (i.e. sensationalist bullshit) reporters put on things and the complete lack of research they do these days and Fox news are some of the best of the worst (and I don't mean that as a compliment)...

"Since the dawn of modern warfare, the best way to stay alive in the face of incoming fire has been to take cover behind a wall. But thanks to a game-changing "revolutionary" rifle, the U.S. Army has made that tactic dead on arrival. Now the enemy can run, but he can't hide."

Yeah I know what they mean, when those pesky badguys hid behind a wall in the past, we were completely screwed! We'd have to "make do" with grenade launchers and mortars or we'd shoot through the wall with machineguns or use a LAW rocket, a passing tank or some other novelty to put a hole in the wall.
Thanks to this "game-changing" rifle I won't have to do that any more... oh, but then again, I'm gonna be screwed if they do the Chechen trick, i.e. hide under fallen rubble and use car jacks to lift the block they're hiding under so they have a firing slit, then drop the rubble when they receive incoming fire

"With this weapon system, we take away cover from [enemy targets] forever," Lehner told FoxNews.com on Wednesday. "Tactics are going to have to be rewritten. The only thing we can see [enemies] being able to do is run away."

Yeah, that's right, cos nobody will have the ingenuity to figure out a way to protect themselves, oh hang on a second, there's still that Chechen trick... It's foolish to downright irresponsible to teach people that sort of rubbish, that one new toy will give them complete power over the enemy. For every system someone develops, there's someone who makes a counter to the system.

I barely even watch Fox News anymore....there's only so much bullshit I can digest in 5 minutes, let alone an hour.

With THAT said....I'd be interested to see how this weapon performs. I don't think it's a bad concept at all. It may or may not be a "game changer" as they say, but still looks to have potential. I think it'd be bad idea to just dismiss the whole idea out of hand, but that's just me.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

I barely even watch Fox News anymore....there's only so much bullshit I can digest in 5 minutes, let alone an hour.

Hell I'm a conservative and I think FN is bullshit.

This is/was stupid and basically product placement for ATK, nothing else. The aforementioned "lift up rubble with a car jack" trick is SORTA KINDA IMPERVIOUS to some dinky little 20-mm BB round.

Now a GPS locked SDB lofted from a passing F15E? Yeah that's more like it.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Hell I'm a conservative and I think FN is bullshit.

This is/was stupid and basically product placement for ATK, nothing else. The aforementioned "lift up rubble with a car jack" trick is SORTA KINDA IMPERVIOUS to some dinky little 20-mm BB round.

Now a GPS locked SDB lofted from a passing F15E? Yeah that's more like it.

Go back and read how it operates again.

[Webstral]

I think sensible people of any stripe are wary of rah-rah press. "We're so awesome!" is a dangerous thing to say and an even more dangerous thing to believe.

[HorseSoldier]

Has the XM25 been demonstrated to have killed anyone in combat yet?

On the early combat trials the powers-that-be declared it to be a game changer but the data on the ground was that it hadn't actually helped any Taliban types rendezvous with toe tags. Bad guys broke contact in several firefights involving the -25, but that may have just been scary-new-gun-itis. Until it starts making corpses it isn't getting the job done.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

It may or may not be a "game changer" as they say, but still looks to have potential. I think it'd be bad idea to just dismiss the whole idea out of hand, but that's just me.

As mentioned, I wasn't criticizing the weapon or its intended use. I think it has a lot of potential and probably should be issued as a platoon level support weapon.

Some anecdotal reports from its combat trials in Afghanistan have made their onto Military.com and so far most of them have been very positive
http://www.military.com/news/article...e-to-hide.html

There's also this report from ArmyTimes
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/0...-test-021411w/

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

There's also this report from ArmyTimes
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/0...-test-021411w/

^^^From this Article.

n one engagement, an enemy machine gunner was “so badly wounded or so freaking scared that he dropped [his] weapon” and ran, said Lt. Col. Christopher Lehner, Program Manager Individual Weapons.

There were no casualties among units carrying the XM25 in those nine engagements, Lehner said.

“No longer can the enemy shoot at American forces, then hide behind something,” said Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller of Program Executive Office Soldier. “This is a revolutionary weapon. This is a game-changer.”

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Thanks to this "game-changing" rifle I won't have to do that any more... oh, but then again, I'm gonna be screwed if they do the Chechen trick, i.e. hide under fallen rubble and use car jacks to lift the block they're hiding under so they have a firing slit, then drop the rubble when they receive incoming fire

Locate target with Thermal viewer. Lase rubble. tap key for minus one meter. set cross hairs on firing slit. Fire round. Round travels distance. Round detonates one meter in front of firing slit. Enemy combatant take grenade fragments to the face.

Enemy combatant engages from hard cover (walled compound).

Lase wall. Tap key for plus one meter. Aim cross hairs on a position enemy combatant is popping up from. Fire round. Round travels distance. Round detonates one meter past wall and directly over combatants head. Combatants takes fragments to the head and torso.

It is a better tool in the tool box. Sure things were made do before, now it can be done better, Day or night.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Locate target with Thermal viewer. Lase rubble. tap key for minus one meter. set cross hairs on firing slit. Fire round. Round travels distance. Round detonates one meter in front of firing slit. Enemy combatant take grenade fragments to the face.

Enemy combatant engages from hard cover (walled compound).

Lase wall. Tap key for plus one meter. Aim cross hairs on a position enemy combatant is popping up from. Fire round. Round travels distance. Round detonates one meter past wall and directly over combatants head. Combatants takes fragments to the head and torso.

It is a better tool in the tool box. Sure things were made do before, now it can be done better, Day or night.

Only works if you actually know where the enemy is - the Chechens didn't show themselves all the time. Instead they'd raise the rubble just enough to allow a firing slit, take the shot then drop the rubble if they thought they were in danger.
Again, I'm not criticizing the weapon or it's intended employment, I was criticizing the way that Fox news reported on it.

[ArmySGT.]

I think it is going to be a game changer. Atleast as far as counter insurgency fighting in Afghanistan goes.

The Taliban are don't dig fighting positions , I have heard. Secondly the don't wear helmets and flak vests.

The opposition is going to have to adapt this time.

Next it forces the Taliban to give up the open country and go primarily urban. Since any wall or open ditch is no longer cover.

Takes away the range advantage. The Allies will be able to reach out to past the effective ranges of PK Machineguns and Enfield rifles.

May not be a "game changer" in a conventional war, but I think it is going to change the game in Afghanistan once deployed in large numbers.

[waiting4something]

After doing little research I was shocked to find out how anemic the buckshot load for the 40 mm is. It's only like 20 #4 buckshot pellets. Your average 12 gauge 2 3/4 shell hold 27 pellets by comparison. I always believed the round had 00 buckshot, but that is not the case. In theory a 12 gauge round is more lethal. I'm not sure about the flechette rounds, but the buckshot load isn't so hot.