The location of the Pope during the Twilight War

[firewalker]

i used to have a bunch more links but thay seam to have dispard someware.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/swiss_guard/index.htm


Raellus i once thought about having a militia/proto militant order poop up. The genesis being when the local marauder crew tried there stick on a monastery (and attended refugees and such) were one of the novices was in his previous life a green bary.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The subject of the Vatican and the Swiss Guards has come up before, these threads are worth reading
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=10016
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=517
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=1209

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

A cross in one hand and grenade launcher in the other, he's "THE CONVERTER"!
Don't let the robes fool you...

And he's armed with the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!

[Dog 6]

I had to vote " other " . I'd say he's dead by the year 2000

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

I had to vote " other " . I'd say he's dead by the year 2000

I think you misunderstand. The question isn't about the location of a specific Pope, the question is about the location of whoever the current Pope is during the Twilight War. As long as there are any cardinals left there will be an election to decide a new Pope after John Paul II dies. Unless you're arguing that following the death of John Paul II no new Pope would be elected? If so I think that is a valid position to take but I'd like to see your reasoning.

[Legbreaker]

If JPII was dead, and it occured during or after the nukes, then it's very likely there could be multiple claimants to the title. It's also possible that the individual claimants and their associated group could be unaware of others in existance.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

I think you misunderstand. The question isn't about the location of a specific Pope, the question is about the location of whoever the current Pope is during the Twilight War. As long as there are any cardinals left there will be an election to decide a new Pope after John Paul II dies. Unless you're arguing that following the death of John Paul II no new Pope would be elected? If so I think that is a valid position to take but I'd like to see your reasoning.

But if JPII is killed in the fighting, what are the chances you'll get a conclave together in the near future? Especially if the Vatican is destroyed and travel is impossible?

[Targan]

There were still Popes elected even during the worst of times during the Middle Ages. I agree that there may well end up being multiple Popes all vying for legitimacy but I doubt there would be no Pope at all for very long.

[Rainbow Six]

I agree with Targan and Leg - Regardless of whether a conclave can be formed or not, there will probably be several people claiming the title of Pope, with varying degrees of legitimacy.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I agree with Targan and Leg - Regardless of whether a conclave can be formed or not, there will probably be several people claiming the title of Pope, with varying degrees of legitimacy.

What a world...a world full of popes...

[Rainbow Six]

As was alluded to earlier, I suppose it's not that dissimilar to the situation in the US where Civgov and Milgov are both claiming to be the Government. There would probably be countless other "Pretenders" throughout the World claiming various titles, positions, etc.

For example, I wouldn't be at all surprised if one or more persons in Russia tried to set themselves up as the new Tsar...

[Mohoender]

Hello Everyone, long time no talk for me (Too many real life matters to care for). Glad to see that you are still around.

In my own game I left the Pope in Rome but that's perfectly personnal. Wiith a papal state ruling over Rome, Sardegna and Malta. I like the idea of Switzerland, so.

I can see many place where the pope could reside including Castle Gandolfo, San Marino, France, Malta and (why not) Spain or Portugal.

Something else could be interesting too, then, and that would be a rehearsal of the Middle Ages situation with two Popes. One in Rome (or Italy) and an anti-pope remaining again in Avignon (France) or elsewhere. A schism could be interesting.

Hope that this week and the coming chrystmas will leave me enough time to come back again.

In case, I don't, have some good times for years'end, all of you.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Hello Everyone, long time no talk for me (Too many real life matters to care for). Glad to see that you are still around.

Hope that this week and the coming chrystmas will leave me enough time to come back again.

In case, I don't, have some good times for years'end, all of you.

Mohender,

Glad to hear from you and that you can devote at least a little time to offer your opinion.

I think that a "multiple popes" scenario fits well into T2K. It's sort of how like the Black Madonna (BM) is a powerful instrument to inspire the faithful of Poland for both "good" or "evil". At least in some areas, religion is a real factor in T2K and the pope is therefore an element of political influence.

Instead of oneBM that influences Poland, the pope could wield global influence in the face of weak national governments. Unlike a unique painting, the pope is an office and there could be several of them.

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

I think the pope is in the pizza...old SNL joke...

[Legbreaker]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of JPII swallowing a nuke and there being multiple Popes in 2000 scattered about the planet.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of JPII swallowing a nuke and there being multiple Popes in 2000 scattered about the planet.

Yeah, that is a very plausible scenario.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Targan

Yeah, that is a very plausible scenario.

Targan,

Hey, religion has played a surprisingly important part in many T2K adventures or scenarios. Having multiple popes kind of plays to that!

Tony

[natehale1971]

This is something I'm still working on... any suggestions for making it better would be nice!

The Military for the Vatican City-State:

With the growing rift between Italy and the rest of NATO that had started in the years leading up to the Sino-Soviet War, the Pope had become more and more concerned over the safety of the Vatican City-State with the upswing of anti-Papal violence (mostly acts of vandalism and muggings). To counter this, he chose to reestablish the volunteer militia formations of the Palatine Guard and the Noble Guard to assist the Pontifical Swiss Guard in their protective and defense duties.

But the formation of the Mediterranean Alliance and subsequent treaties with the USSR & Warsaw Pact, the Pope quietly ordered the reorganization of the two auxiliary forces.

The Noble Guard was reorganized as a professional military force of modern mechanized infantry, while the Palatine Guard remained as a volunteer militia with its personnel being equipped by the Vatican, whom also instituted a formal training regimen. At first the controversial decision of the Pope caused many to question the action, but it had drew attention away from the expansion of the size of the Swiss Guard, and while the Swiss Guard had been expanded the Pope did not allow for any exceptions or changes in recruitment and training personnel.

While this was happening, the Pope was attempting to work behind the scenes to get the Italian government to change course… but when all of his efforts failed he officially declared that the Vatican was going to enter into a state of Armed Neutrality, much like the Swiss Confederation. The Vatican quietly acquired through various front companies several mega-yachts that were quickly turned into floating Pontifical Palaces that were to be used as a mobile Vatican if anything happened to the Holy See itself.

To protect these floating Pontifical Palaces, the Vatican City-State was able to acquire small combat craft that would become the core of the modern Pontifical Navy. Such as the Swedish designed and built Combat Boat 90 to act as escorts. Each of the mega-yachts had the ability for helicopters to land on a reinforced stern flight deck.


The Ranks of the Vatican City-State:
Generalkapitän (Captain-General)
Oberst (Colonel)
Oberstleutnant (Colonel Lieutenant)
Major (Major)
Hauptmann (Captain)
Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant)
Leutnant (Lieutenant)
Feldwebel (Sergeant Major)
Wachtmeister (Sergeant)
Korporal (Corporal)
Vizekorporal (Vice Corporal)
Hellebardier (Halbardier)/Gardist (Guardsman)


The Corps of the Pontifical Swiss Guard or Swiss Guard (German: Schweizergarde, Italian: Guardia Svizzera Pontificia, Latin: Pontificia Cohors Helvetica, or Cohors Pedestris Helvetiorum a Sacra Custodia Pontificis) is something of an exception to the Swiss rulings of 1874 and 1927. It is a small force maintained by the Holy See and is responsible for the safety of the Pope, including the security of the Apostolic Palace. It serves as the de facto military of Vatican City.
The history of the Swiss Guards has its origins in the 15th century. Pope Sixtus IV (1471–1484) already made a previous alliance with the Swiss Confederation and built barracks in Via Pellegrino after foreseeing the possibility of recruiting Swiss mercenaries. The pact was renewed by Innocent VIII (1484–1492) in order to use them against the Duke of Milan. Alexander VI (1492–1503) later actually used the Swiss mercenaries during their alliance with the King of France. During the time of the Borgias, however, the Italian Wars began in which the Swiss mercenaries were a fixture in the front lines among the warring factions, sometimes for France and sometimes for the Holy See or the Holy Roman Empire. The mercenaries enlisted when they heard King Charles VIII of France was going to raise a war against Naples. Among the participants in the war against Naples was Cardinal Giuliano della Rovere, the future Pope Julius II (1503–1513), who was well acquainted with the Swiss having been Bishop of Lausanne years earlier. The expedition failed in part thanks to new alliances made by Alexander VI against the French. When Cardinal della Rovere became pope Julius II in 1503, he asked the Swiss Diet to provide him with a constant corps of 200 Swiss mercenaries. In September 1505, the first contingent of 150 soldiers started their march towards Rome, under the command of Kaspar von Silenen, and entered the city on January 22, 1506, today given as the official date of the Guard's foundation. "The Swiss see the sad situation of the Church of God, Mother of Christianity, and realize how grave and dangerous it is that any tyrant, avid for wealth, can assault with impunity, the common Mother of Christianity," declared Huldrych Zwingli, a Swiss Catholic who later became a Protestant reformer. Pope Julius II later granted them the title "Defenders of the Church's freedom".
The force has varied greatly in size over the years and has even been disbanded. Its first, and most significant, hostile engagement was on May 6, 1527 when 147 of the 189 Guards, including their commander, died fighting the troops of Holy Roman Emperor Charles V in the stand of the Swiss Guard during the Sack of Rome in order to allow Clement VII to escape through the Passetto di Borgo, escorted by the other 40 guards. The last stand battlefield is located on the left side of St Peter's Basilica, close to the Campo Santo Teutonico (German Graveyard).
The Swiss Guard has served the popes since the 16th century. Ceremonially, they shared duties in the Papal household with the Palatine Guard and Noble Guard, both of which were disbanded in 1970 under Paul VI. Today the Papal Swiss Guard have taken over the ceremonial roles of the former units. At the end of 2005, there were 135 members of the Swiss Guard. This number consisted of a Commandant (bearing the rank of oberst or Colonel), a chaplain, three officers, one sergeant major (feldwebel), 30 NCOs, and 99 halberdiers, the rank equivalent to private (so called because of their traditional Halberd).

The Noble Guard (Ital. Guardia Nobile) was one of the guard units of the Vatican. It was formed by Pope Pius VII in 1801 as a regiment of heavy cavalry. Initially, the regiment was tasked with providing escort for the Pope and other senior Princes of the Church, and missions within the Papal States at the behest of the pope. One of their first major duties was to escort Pius VII to Paris for the coronation of Napoleon Bonaparte. With the unification of Italy and the confiscation of the Papal States in 1870, the Noble Guard became a corps of foot guards.
The corps was a volunteer one - its members were not paid for their service, and had to pay for their own equipment. The commander of the corps was called the Captain. One of the subordinate positions within the corps was that of Hereditary Standard-Bearer, who was responsible for carrying the standard of the Catholic Church. The Noble Guard made its appearance in public only when the pope took part in a public function; when the pope withdrew, he was followed by the Noble Guard. During a vacancy of the Holy See, the corps stood at the service of the College of Cardinals.
During the Second World War, the Noble Guard shared responsibility with the Swiss Guard for the personal security of Pope Pius XII. For instance, when the Pope took his daily walk in the Vatican Gardens, two Noble Guardsmen followed at a distance. The guard was abolished by Pope Paul VI in 1970 as part of the reforms of the Church following Vatican II.

The Palatine Guard (Ital. Guardia Palatina d'Onore) was a military unit of the Vatican. It was formed in 1850 by Pope Pius IX, who ordered that the two militia units of the Papal States be amalgamated. The corps was formed as an infantry unit, and took part in watch-keeping in Rome as well as various battles, including the defense of Rome against soldiers from Piedmont. The Second World War was a high point in the history of the Palatine Guard.
In September 1943, when German troops occupied Rome in response to Italy's conclusion of an armistice with the Allies, the Guard was given the responsibility of protecting Vatican City, various Vatican properties in Rome, and the pope's summer villa at Castel Gandolfo. The guardsmen (mainly Roman shop keepers and office clerks) whose service had previously been limited to standing in ranks and presenting arms at ceremonial occasions, now found themselves patrolling the walls, gardens and courtyards of Vatican City and standing post at the entrances to papal buildings around the Eternal City. On more than one occasion this service resulted in violent confrontations with Italian Fascist police units working with the German authorities to arrest political refugees who were hiding in buildings protected by the Vatican. At the outbreak of the Second World War in September 1939 the Palatine Guard mustered some 500 men, but by the liberation of Rome in June 1944 the corps had grown to 2000 men. The corps was abolished in 1970 by Pope Paul VI as part of the reforms of the Church following the Second Vatican Council. Its former members were therefore invited to join a new group called the Saints Peter and Paul Association (Italian: Associazione SS. Pietro e Paolo), whose statutes were approved by the Holy Father on 24 April 1971.

The Corps of Gendarmerie of Vatican City (Ital. Corpo della Gendarmeria dello Stato della CittÃ* del Vaticano) is the gendarmerie, or police and security force, of Vatican City. The corps is responsible for security, public order, border control, traffic control, criminal investigation, and other general police duties in Vatican City. A small number of the corps' officers travel with the pope to provide close-in security for the pontiff. The corps has 130 personnel and is a part of the Security and Civil Defense Services Department (which also includes the Vatican Fire Brigade), an organ of the Governorate of Vatican City State.

The Papal Zouaves (Zuavi Pontifici) were an infantry force formed in defence of the Papal States. The Zuavi Pontifici were mainly young men, unmarried and Roman Catholic, who volunteered to assist Pope Pius IX in his struggle against the Italian Risorgimento. They wore a similar style of uniform to that of the French Zouaves but in grey with red trim. A grey and red kepi was substituted for the North African fez. All orders were given in French and the unit was commanded by a Swiss Colonel, M. Allet.
Nonetheless, the regiment was truly international, and by May 1868 numbered 4,592 men. At that time the unit was composed of 1,910 Dutch, 1,301 French, 686 Belgians, 157 Romans and Pontifical subjects, 135 Canadians, 101 Irish, 87 Prussians, 50 English, 32 Spaniards, 22 Germans from beyond Prussia, 19 Swiss, 14 Americans, 14 Neapolitans, 12 Modenese, 12 Poles, 10 Scots, 7 Austrians, 6 Portuguese, 6 Tuscans, three Maltese, two Russians and one volunteer each from the South Sea Islands, India, "Africa", Mexico, Peru and Circassia.
A British volunteer, Joseph Powell, noted in his account of his service with the Papal Zouaves, Two Years in the Pontifical Zouaves that at least three "blacks" (doubtless Africans) and one person from China served in the Zouaves.
Between February 1868 and September 1870 the number of Canadian volunteers, mainly from the francophone and Catholic province of Quebec, rose to seven contingents numbering some 500 men in total - with a contingent of 114 turning back to Canada because news had reached them of the surrender of the Papal States in September 1870.

[Adm.Lee]

I'll bet the Pope spent at least some time here:
http://www.comune.castelgandolfo.rm....Imc=14&IdSec=2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castel_gandolfo

This is the Pope's summer residence, in the Alban Hills, and also home of the Vatican Observatory, and its astronomy library. If you believe the Da Vinci code, this is where a lot of the secret books are.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I'll bet the Pope spent at least some time here:
http://www.comune.castelgandolfo.rm....Imc=14&IdSec=2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castel_gandolfo

This is the Pope's summer residence, in the Alban Hills, and also home of the Vatican Observatory, and its astronomy library. If you believe the Da Vinci code, this is where a lot of the secret books are.

Oh. this is nice. Definitely one of the places that he'd need to set up a method of protecting the place!

[pmulcahy11b]

The Vatican Library might be something worth defending...perhaps hustled out of town in special trucks in the dead of night.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

The Vatican Library might be something worth defending...perhaps hustled out of town in special trucks in the dead of night.

yup... that fits with what happened in our campaign. The Vatican had evacuated a LOT of the stuff out in the middle of the night via the underground railway they had... They got as much out to scattered locations that they felt would be safe from nukes and looting. And looting was one of the biggest reasons the Pope gave for increasing the security for Papal Properties around the globe (and the growth of the Papal Defense Force).

It was the establishment of that security that provided cover for the arrivals of various priceless artifacts. But also the use of front organizations to purchase land in out of the way areas.

It's why i like the slow build up better.. It gives a lot more RP opportunities. Especially with NATO tasking a group of PCs on a mission like Black Madonna, but all over the globe.

[Stich2.0]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

It was the establishment of that security that provided cover for the arrivals of various priceless artifacts. But also the use of front organizations to purchase land in out of the way areas.

Ooh nice! Out the way areas so the buggering of little boys will have an added layer of security and privacy.

[James Langham]

This is the background note from my history:

The Vatican and the Papal State
Joseph Stalin was once told that the Pope would be upset by an action retorted “how many divisions does he have?� In this he was correct that the papacy (the world's smallest country) had little military power. What he overlooked was the influence that was held over church members.
When the Sino-Soviet War erupted the Pope tried to act as an intermediary. Links with the Orthodox Church were used but little was achieved. As the conflict spread to Europe the Catholic Church had more of an influence with the Poles in particular (Poland was the only Pact country that had a military chaplains department). Nothing was achieved but many worried Poles seeing the Polish Pope trying to promote peace turned to the church for solace. The strain of all the effort (including flights to Washington and Moscow) was too much for the ailing pope. In 1996 as a fake alert of a nuclear attack resulted in his flight by helicopter to the papal retreat at Castle Gandolfo, he suffered a major heart attack (the 1982 bomb shelter was not felt to be secure enough unless evacuation was impossible in the time available). Despite the best efforts of his doctor and the escorting Swiss Guard (including an ex-special forces medic) he was pronounced dead shortly after arrival.
With the death of Pope John Paul II, the conclave met to elect a new pope. After much debate the compromise candidate Italian Cardinal Camilo was elected Pope. Taking the name Pope John, he considered his position. A conservative theologian he was a practical man who had spent much of his early pastoral work in the rural parts of Italy. In his youth he had been called up by the army and had spent six months fighting in Russia before a leg wound sent him home. Feeling that the Church needed to act decisively he took the opportunity to act when the nuclear exchanges devastated Italy. Appealing to the remnants of the police and military to join him, he also expanded the Swiss Guard (an offer many Swiss were eager to accept). This force was one of the few organised groups in central Italy. Combined with the network of small churches, monasteries and nunneries which form the backbone of a welfare state, the Vatican easily fills the power vacuum.
Using the Church network the Vatican had developed an excellent intelligence network (in particular the Jesuits were active in this). Hit by the communication difficulties of the present this network is less effective as information is difficult to get back to the centre. This is balanced by an ease of gathering information as most priests and many lay members feel a loyalty more to the church than state (especially in these troubled times when life is short and brutal).
Portrayals of Pope John provide an interesting contrast. To supporters he is seen as a stabilising influence on a shattered world and a leader of one of the few places where order can still be found. To detractors he is portrayed as an opportunist militarist who is betraying the spiritual legacy of the Church for temporal gain. His quiet non-public life prior to becoming pope leads to much discussion as to his character.
He has since coming to power spoken out against the Communists and in particular the Italian government. Critics have said that this is purely an attempt to discredit his biggest rival for power (indeed many Italians have flocked to his banner), others however have suggested that this is due to his service in World War Two.
His long term goals are also unknown. At present he controls the central part of Italy centred around Rome. Movement north would gain control of the more industrial Po region (although it has been thoroughly devastated) whilst movement south would probably bring conflict with the Mafia. What is known is that the French have offered him a home in France but as yet no response has been made to these offers.
As an interesting aside rumours persist that the body of Pope John Paul II has been returned to his home county of Poland under the escort of a select team of Papal Guard. It is unknown if this rumour is accurate.
At least one alternative Pope with a reasonable claim is known to exist. This is Pope Alexander who is currently based in France. He claims that the election was flawed as few cardinals from places such as South America could get to the election in time and that this was his main block of supporters. The French have carefully trod a line that means they back him without offending Pope John (at least until the results of offering him a home are apparent. Other popes are known to exist but none have any real claim to legitimacy.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Stich2.0

Ooh nice! Out the way areas so the buggering of little boys will have an added layer of security and privacy.

I'm not gonna feed the troll, but i do think someone should point to them and say "let's shut them up before they grow"

[Fusilier]

I don't think this one is entirely a troll post.

[Panther Al]

Have to say JL- your point of view is really rather good. Its a logical way for the Holy See to have an Army again, without having to do a lot of hand waving- in fact, if you don't mind I'll steal it for my own timeline if you don't mind?

On the care and feeding bit... I wasn't going to say, but if you take that post and others, well...

[natehale1971]

JL's ideas for why the Pope does the build-up of the Papal Defense Forces, and they fit perfectly for a slow build-up to the Twilight War.

As for Trolls... popping in like that, with something totally off-topic and really asinine makes you Troll Bait in my book.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Taking the name Pope John, he considered his position.

James,

A great body of work! There is one noticeable error: Popes are named sequentially. Pope John XXIII died in 1963, therefore the next Pope named "John" would be called Pope John XXIV. Popes are never referenced without the number.

Regarding the troll-bait comment, as a Catholic I don't even notice any more, much less get a rise. Now, I wonder if the Church's rules on marriage would be relaxed, perhaps to facilitate alliances with other churches, but somehow I think that would be too much to hope for!

Tony

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Regarding the troll-bait comment, as a Catholic I don't even notice any more, much less get a rise. Now, I wonder if the Church's rules on marriage would be relaxed, perhaps to facilitate alliances with other churches, but somehow I think that would be too much to hope for!

Tony

Tony, I'm not a Catholic and thats not what is making me say something... but throwing in that kind of asinine comment for no good reason does nothing but cause thread drift or kill it. THAT's why I'm pointing it out. We are talking about something totally unrelated to what they threw out there, thus drawing us away from our topic.