The Military Deployments of T2K

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

In the T2K alternate universe by the time the war kicked off the National Guard had punched up their readiness to the point where the round out brigades worked -- not an entirely unreasonable idea given that the Sino-Soviet War would have potentially provided serious motivation to get the NG and USAR ready to go to war. So 24th ID going downrange with 48th Mech Bde in tow is probably reasonable.

Add in the 194th and 197th, with their strategic reserve role being taken over by two or all three brigades from 44th Armored (which I agree, is kind of a silly unit, insofar as that's not how the NG Separate Armored and Infantry Brigades were supposed to be employed -- though to be fair I think it and a couple other divisions like 43rd were depicted as an editorial decision to keep overall length of USAVG down).

Adjusting for the situation, it probably yields something like:

194th Arm'd Brigade -- XVIII Airborne
197th Mech Brigade -- XVIII Airborne

157th Mech Brigade (from 43rd Inf Div) -- To III Corps in USAREUR
187th Inf Brigade (from 43rd Inf Div) -- Iceland Defense Force
205th Inf Brigade (from 43rd Inf Div) -- To 6th ID(L) (their actual round out unit)

30th SIB (from 44th AD) -- Strat Reserve @ Benning
31st SAB (from 44th AD) -- Strat Reserve @ Knox
218th SIB (from 44th AD) -- to III Corps in USAREUR

Or something like that. Putting 30th and 31st brigades at Knox and Benning allows them to pretty directly cover down on the 194th/197th storylines in the T2K timeline, though I suppose by the time XVIII punches out for the desert they could have just taken 30th/31st with them and left 194th/197th in place, though it seems like the combat power of the regular army units would be preferable in a low density theater.

Now that I'm home and have the books!!!! The 2nd Edition Rulebook has PG1 pretty much as it was in 1991. The Sino-Soviet War kicks off in 1995, no mention of month, but the impression I get is Spring. June/July of 1996 is the time period of the initial German attack into Poland with November of that year seeing the first WP counterattacks, this is the period when the US/UK/Canadian forces join the Germans.

Switching to the RDF Sourcebook, the canon has 1988/90 opening with the death of Ayatollah Khomeyni's successor and the Iran Nowin movement gaining control of the country. This is the government that keys down the anti-US stance, ends the war with Iraq and starts to open back up to the West. 1st Edition rulebook had the Sino-Soviet War starting in 1993 with the Soviets invading Iran in 1995. 1996 has CENTCOM sending in a Special Forces Group as well as a ranger battalion. UK sends the MEFF and the French send in the GOLE (Foreign Legion).

1996 kicks off with Israel/Syria going into a stalemate after a bloody round of attack/counterattacks. The Iranian government splinters with the Tudeh/Pasdaran and Iran Nowin going for a short-lived civil war ending when the Soviets invade Iran in July. CENTCOM deploys headquarters to Saudi Arabia along with logistics elements in December. The first combat units enter SA at the start of January, 1997 with the 82nd ABN, another Special Forces Group and the Ranger Regiment (just how many battalions did the rangers raise in the twilight war?).

The US/Soviet forces first meet on the ground in May 1997.

With this timeline, even being adjusted for the offset in between 1st and 2nd Editions; the only possible logical reinforcements would be the 194th/197th brigades and possibly the 40th MID. The real argument then is if the US reactivates any divisions for service.

Damn, I hate giving up cherished plans!!!!!!

I still sat a ACR on the ground would be a hell of a lot more mobile than the 9th!!!!

[HorseSoldier]

Now that I'm home and have the books!!!! The 2nd Edition Rulebook has PG1 pretty much as it was in 1991. The Sino-Soviet War kicks off in 1995, no mention of month, but the impression I get is Spring. June/July of 1996 is the time period of the initial German attack into Poland with November of that year seeing the first WP counterattacks, this is the period when the US/UK/Canadian forces join the Germans.

The 2nd edition timeline is nonsensical. 1st Ed is acceptably plausible from the perspective of 1985 or so, but 2nd edition just doesn't make any sense and was a mediocre attempt at updating the game without anyone having to make any real effort to think things through and provide the same level of internal consistency that made 1st edition such a strong product.

With this timeline, even being adjusted for the offset in between 1st and 2nd Editions; the only possible logical reinforcements would be the 194th/197th brigades and possibly the 40th MID. The real argument then is if the US reactivates any divisions for service.

I can't see any additional divisions scratched together -- pre war there's the very significant task of trying to get the National Guard in a condition to actually fight a war. Once the war kicks off you've got less than a year before it goes nuclear, during which time there will be huge requirements for AFVs and personnel for battle casualty replacements. There's not going to be any significant slack in that mix to generate new divisions, judging by how close to zero combat power the late war USAR divisions are when formed.

I still sat a ACR on the ground would be a hell of a lot more mobile than the 9th!!!!

An ACR probably has a bigger fuel footprint than all of 9th ID (Lt Mot) combined, and 9th ID's systems are probably more logistically forgiving of wear and tear from operational level manuevers in the Middle East. The whole division combined also lacks the compact buzzsaw elegance of an American ACR, but for screening and economy of force in a theater as big and empty as Iran the light motorized guys would be better than heavy cav (lots of space to trade for time, etc.).

As far as I am aware, Iran and the west didn't have a lot of love for each other in the early to mid 90's. My guess is the late deployment to the area wasn't just due to lack of transportation, but also political manoeuvring - lots of background diplomacy/espionage/assassinations to ensure the government(s) of the day was friendly before putting boots on the ground.

Not so much Iran as Saudi -- the moment the war goes hot, I'd expect to see XVIII headed for Saudi Arabia post haste. The operations in Iran are more of an expeditionary effort after security of the Arabian peninsula is squared away.

[Legbreaker]

That's basically the way I see it as well - the oil fields of proven friendly (or at least not overtly hostile) need securing as soon as possible to allow the war effort elsewhere not to grind to a fueless halt. Once that's done those units in the area (whoever they may be) can be pushed forward towards the enemy in an effort to both increase the buffer zone and with luck acquire control over more fuel production areas (and deny them to the enemy).

[Louied]

Ok all this is what I have for IRL planned deployments circa 1988-1989 gleened from the following: (along with various websites)
1)Strategic Geography : NATO, the Warsaw Pact, and the Superpowers
http://www.amazon.com/Strategic-Geog...6&sr=8-3-spell
2)Inside the US Army
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-US-Army...0333472&sr=1-1
3)MANEUVER AND FIREPOWER: THE EVOLUTION OF DIVISIONS AND SEPARATE BRIGADES
http://www.history.army.mil/books/Lineage/M-F/index.htm

1 ID- VII Corps REFORGER
2 ID- Eighth Army ROK
3 ID- VII Corps
4 ID- V Corps REFORGER
5 ID- III Corps REFORGER
6 ID- TF Alaska, secondary to ROK
7 ID- to Eighth Army ROK
8 ID- V Corps
9 ID- coverting to Mech, SSR (L) POMCUS stocks in Cheshire UK, most likely deployment to Denmark/ Southern Norway
10 ID- AFNorth- Northern Norway
24 ID- XVIII Corps
25 ID- to Eighth Army ROK
82 Abn D- XVIII Corps
101 Abn D-XVIII Corps
1 Cav D- III Corps REFORGER
1 AD- VII Corps
2 AD- III Corps REFORGER
3 AD- V Corps
2 ACR- VII Corps
3 ACR- III Corps
11 ACR- V Corps
193 SIB- SOUTHCOM Panama
194 SAB- XVIII Corps
197 SIB- XVIII Corps
Berlin Bde- US Army, Europe
177 SAB- OPFOR Ft. Irwin

26 ID-I Corps/Strategic reserve
28 ID-I Corps/Strategic reserve
29 ID- Seventh Army
35 ID- VII Corps ?
38 ID- SOUTHCOM Reserve
40 ID- V Corps ?
42 ID- I Corps/Strategic reserve
47 ID- TF Alaska
49 AD- III Corps ?
50 AD-I Corps/Strategic reserve
107 ACR-I Corps/Strategic reserve
278 ACR- XVIII Corps
27 IB- RO 10 ID
29 SIB- to Eighth Army ROK (training association with 25 ID)
30 SIB- Seventh Army
30 SAB-Seventh Army
31 SAB-Seventh Army
32 SIB-TF Alaska
33 SIB- supports Infantry School
39 SIB- XVIII Corps
41 SIB- to Eighth Army ROK (training association with 7 ID)
45 SIB- III Corps (rear battle mission)
48 IB- RO 24 ID
53 SIB-SOUTHCOM Reserve
73 SIB-Seventh Army (rear battle mission)
81 IB- RO 9 ID
92 SIB-SOUTHCOM Reserve
116 CB- RO 4 ID
155 AB- RO 1 Cav D
163 SAB- ?
207 IG- TF Alaska
218 SIB-Seventh Army (training association with 1 ID)
256 IB- RO 5 ID

157 SIB- ?
187 SIB- Iceland Defence Force
205 IB- RO 6 ID

Hope someone can fill this out better or at least fill in what I have missing.

[HorseSoldier]

Part of the problem with the GDW Order of Battle is how casually they just miracled new Corps into existence, when any and all of the various support units and artillery and such just didn't exist anywhere in the US OOB for a lot of them.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The 2nd edition timeline is nonsensical. 1st Ed is acceptably plausible from the perspective of 1985 or so, but 2nd edition just doesn't make any sense and was a mediocre attempt at updating the game without anyone having to make any real effort to think things through and provide the same level of internal consistency that made 1st edition such a strong product.

That's pretty much how I view it. I run my games using the 1st ed timeline as it makes allot more sense.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Part of the problem with the GDW Order of Battle is how casually they just miracled new Corps into existence, when any and all of the various support units and artillery and such just didn't exist anywhere in the US OOB for a lot of them.

They did however have roughly ten years from the moment of writing to when these units were supposed to be deployed. We really have no idea what happened in that period (and really don't need to). All we as players, GMs, etc need is to know they exist where and when they do.
The deployments and existence of certain units doesn't have to make a lot of sense in relation to the "real world" because it's just a game.

[Abbott Shaull]

For once I will go with Leg on this.

The next thing by time we start the game in t2k, many of the units that would of supported those Corps would have been absorbed by other units. Either the Corps or Army directly or spread out to the Divisions and Brigades as replacements.

So that doesn't really bother me much that the units and hardware needed to support all of the extra Corps and Armies didn't exist. Much can be said about the unified German Army and again the Soviet Union military forces to a lesser degree.. By the design of the game Corps, Armies, Army Groups, and Fronts have all lost their meaning in reality. I think this is one of the reason why many of the Divisions were down to such low numbers where they could barely exist as single combat Brigade on NATO side of things let alone as an actual Division.

[Adm.Lee]

To LouieD:thanks for the outline, there were some new things there for me.
- Notably that 9th motorized division had a POMCUS set in UK? That's the first I've heard of it. Do you know if that was for its LM organization, or standard infantry?

Regarding "new" corps HQs written up by GDW.
I was looking at another (massive) NATO OB file that I pulled from this list earlier. Some notes from that:
- IX Corps HQ (and presumably some support elements) are in Japan, I assume to run the ground fight in Korea once the 7th & 25th Divisions are flown in.
- I note that a "standard" corps has 1 brigade each of MP, air defense, and engineers, plus an armored cavalry regiment. In the National Guard & Reserve listings, there are 4 ACR, 3+ AD brigades and 8 MP brigades. Knowing that assumptions aren't worth much, let's work with the Army planned to set up 4 new Corps HQs when at full strength. Seeing as how all of the active Corps had odd numbers, I'd bet on them being II, IV, VI, and VIII Corps, all of which have "good" histories.
- For that matter, I see 21 Reserve and Guard field artillery brigades, when 1-3 are expected to support each corps. I also note 8 active brigades, so that comes close to a planning total of ten corps.

Aside: as I said elsewhere, I am in a PBEM game of GDW's Third World War boardgame. Now I want to try the Norway game with 10th & 9th US divisions.
Adding artillery would be fun, too, but I'd need to do a lot of Soviets, too.

[HorseSoldier]

I don't know. It's pretty clear in USAVG that a lot of the Corps involved weren't pre-planned, but thrown together once the war begins (i.e. X Corps in Alaska). I think this is an artifact of GDW thinking that there had to be a Corps HQ for any conglomeration of two or more divisions. In the case of Alaska, since there just aren't any other assets to the Corps, I'm of the opinion that CG 10th Mountain got handed a second hat as CG X Corps and told to have fun.

For that matter, I see 21 Reserve and Guard field artillery brigades, when 1-3 are expected to support each corps. I also note 8 active brigades, so that comes close to a planning total of ten corps.

A portion of those were intended to provide flexibility to commanders above the Corps level to plus up firepower to units in the attack or defense that needed the extra hitting power.

In the Twilight War a lot of those extra divisions in theater that are tossed into made up Corps would likely have been theater reserves that were attached out to subordinate Corps to allow rotating other units out of the line to reconstitute, etc.

[Louied]

I didn't know about the POMCUS stock in the UK either until I read 'Strategic Geography' , which states only that there was POMCUS stocks for a 18,000 man division. I have also read that the Army could no longer justify the 9th as the HTTB div. as Congress kept cutting weapons systems they wanted.... So the late 80's plan was to convert it to Mech (deleting a active bde & adding the WA ARNG's 81 Bde, 2 Armd/2 mech as a RO) and assign it as SACEUR's Strategic Reserve (Land) based in the UK. The most likely deployments were to reinforce the FRG/Danish corps in Schleswig-Holstein or Southern Norway.

As per Maneuver and Firepower, the 116 ACR & 163 ACR were converted to Armd Bde.'s as there was no need for them in the Army's force structure based on five Corps (I - 107 ACR, IIII- 3 ACR, V- 11 ACR, VII- 2 ACR, XVIII- 278 ACR)

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I don't know. It's pretty clear in USAVG that a lot of the Corps involved weren't pre-planned, but thrown together once the war begins (i.e. X Corps in Alaska). I think this is an artifact of GDW thinking that there had to be a Corps HQ for any conglomeration of two or more divisions. In the case of Alaska, since there just aren't any other assets to the Corps, I'm of the opinion that CG 10th Mountain got handed a second hat as CG X Corps and told to have fun.



A portion of those were intended to provide flexibility to commanders above the Corps level to plus up firepower to units in the attack or defense that needed the extra hitting power.

What a lot of people are not aware of is that the ACRs have extra staff to allow them to control a wide range of attachments. 2ACR in PG1, just to name one example, had an entire field artillery brigade attached to it for the opening breach of the Iraqi lines. It was quite normal in the various REFORGERs to attach a armd, mech or attack helicopter battalion. When 2ACR was pulling border guard duty in Germany, a MI battalion was attached. Doesn't seem much, I know, but a brigade normally was enough staff to control between a max of 4-5 battalions. An ACR has enough to control 8-12 battalions. Yet another reason why ACRs are just so damn useful to have around.

[Panther Al]

Yet another reason why getting rid of the ACR's by making them a cookie cutter battalion is rather insane.

Once again, flexibility is dropped in order to give it... um... "flexibility". Yeah. About that...

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I don't know. It's pretty clear in USAVG that a lot of the Corps involved weren't pre-planned, but thrown together once the war begins (i.e. X Corps in Alaska). I think this is an artifact of GDW thinking that there had to be a Corps HQ for any conglomeration of two or more divisions. In the case of Alaska, since there just aren't any other assets to the Corps, I'm of the opinion that CG 10th Mountain got handed a second hat as CG X Corps and told to have fun.

Well, it is a rule of military thumb that once you have at least two of something, you need a higher commander of some kind, to provide a clear chain of command.

In the case of the X Corps in Alaska, I agree that one was probably thrown together.

And I wonder if the separate brigades that were formed into the 44th division was some idea of USAREUR. When a 4-star general says, "I don't need three brigades, I want a division!"... he gets a division. With a slapped-together staff and supporting arms, of course.

Also, in my previous guesstimate, I overlooked that 1 of the ACRs was already spoken for, as the 107th is allocated to I Corps. FWIW, one of my wargaming pals was a battery commander in that regiment, he thought they were tasked for Korea.

[Legbreaker]

The best laid plans only last until contact with the enemy. From there on it's all about appropriate action and response to the unfolding situation.
Yes some units were slated to go to certain places, but that doesnt' mean that the situation at the time meant that's exactly what happened. An enemy offensive on one place may mean the unit loading up to go another place ends up retasked in transit.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Does anyone know where the 377th Military Intelligence fits? Or what units are based in and around Orlando?

I ask because I'm working on a sort of "Orlando Sourcebook" for my hopefully upcoming campaign. I've got it that most of the fallout from Tampa/St. Pete went south of Orlando, and most of what Patrick got blew out to sea.

This leaves Orlando relatively intact, and a jewel for New America to try and seize.

The Orlando of 2000 has a population right around 22000, most concentrated in the downtown area, near the hospital district, and the rest at the Orlando NTC (and literally right next door is the 377th's headquarters).

Whatever I end up calling the unit - probably it'll wind up as a "Joint Task Force Operations Area" of a few hundred soldiers, here's a very rough TO&E:

375+ troops
1000+ dependents
2x M113A1 (see below)
2x LAV-100
2x LAV-150
2x HEMTT
1x UH1 Iroquois
?x HMMWV

Post strike, the skeleton crew and cadets at the NTC were quickly put on civil support duties as were the skeleton crew of the 377th, and un-deployed personnel stationed at various R&D and support posts near the University of Central Florida and several military contractors based around the city proper, as well as Army reservists and USMC reservists.

Through the looting and riots that followed, coupled with desertions of personnel trying to either reach more distant homes or escape the urban chaos, the provisional "Sunshine Brigade" settled at around 375 personnel plus dependents. The unit is stationed at the Orlando NTC and is a frequent target of harassment by various factions throughout Florida, not the least of which is New America (See Into the Howling Wilderness).

The Brigade is, curiously, "armor heavy": Florida State Troopers maintained a barracks in south Orlando and the motor pool included a crisis response unit consisting of two LAV-150s. Likewise, the Orlando Police Department maintained two LAV-100s. Both are now in possession of the Brigade, traded in exchange for the Brigade's assistance and overwatch in keeping the city safe. But even more curious than these four armored cars are the two M113s. Three weeks and four days after TDM, these two vehicles (at the time in NASA emergency vehicle livery of white and pale green) arrived at the NTC carrying personnel and dependents from the now ruined Patrick AFB. The drivers had risked serious radiation exposure to retrieve the two APCs and escape the devastation to reach Orlando.

While the Commando scout cars and HMMWVs operate regularly, the M113s are kept under wraps. Both have had pintle-mounted .50 caliber guns installed. While threatening radio propaganda from New America have directly mentioned the Commandos, they either choose to ignore or do not know about the M113s.

Finally the Sunshine Brigade is in possession of a true treasure: a working helicopter. A single UH1 is based on the NTC grounds. The UH1 came from the Lockheed-Martin facility in East Orlando. It is still flightworthy as on the day of the initial strikes, it was in a specially designed hangar undergoing EW testing on the airframe, and was thus insulated from the EMP. Many of the personnel who stayed on with the Brigade are Army Aviation and thus there is no shortage of qualified crew. The UH1 has a door-mounted M134 mini-gun on the portside, and a sling-mounted M60 starboard. There is plentiful avgas at Herndon Municipal Airport, although it has to be trucked a few miles through hostile territory. New America sorely wants the aircraft intact, as well as the avgas, and attempts take Orlando have been mounted before. The Sunshine Brigade's mobility and resources have thus far won out, however.

Be gentle, this is an alpha copy.

[dragoon500ly]

A lot of the units in the FL/GA area are assigned to Third Army/CENTCOM if they are Regulars or NATO reinforcement if they are Reserve/National Guard. Tampa, at one time, was CENTCOM headquarters. Hope this helps!

[dragoon500ly]

Now that we have pretty well hashed out the Middle East, let's take a look at
Korea.

According to the American Combat Vehicle Guide, the Eight U.S. Army consists of:

II Amphibious Corps
4th Marine Division (23rd Marines only) [400 mne, 7 M60A3]
5th Marine Division [2,000 men, 9 M-60A3]
6th Marine Division (16 Marines only) [600 men, 4 M-60A3]
II Corps
7th Light Infantry Division (1st Brigade only) [500 men]
26th Light Infantry Division [5,000 men, 13 LAV-75]
45th Infantry Division [2,000 men]
VI Corps
2nd Infantry Division [2,000 men, 4 M-1]
25th Light Infantry Division [600 men]
41st Infantry Division [2,000 men]
163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment [300 men, 4 LAV-75]

or a total of 3,000 Marines and 12,400 Soldiers in nine divisions and one ACR.

Anybody running any OOBs for the Korean Peninsula?

[Abbott Shaull]

Eighth US Army

II Amphibious Corps
3rd Marine Division [1,200 men, 5 M1]
5th Marine Division [2,000 men, 9 M60A3]
6th Marine Division [1,600 men, 8 M60A3]
II Corps
7th Light Infantry Division [1,500 men, 3 M60A3]
23rd Infantry Division [1,500 men, 5 M1]
45th Infantry Division [2,000 men, 2 M60A3]
4th Armor Cavalry Regiment[500 men, 2 M60A3]
VI Corps
2nd Infantry Division [2,000 men, 4 M1]
25th Light Infantry Division [1,200 men, 5 M60A3]
41st Infantry Division [2,000 men, 3 M60A3]
163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment [300 men, 4 M60A3]

I feel that the 3rd Marine Division would of been committed to Korea before sent to the Middle East.

Also replaced the 26th Light Infantry with the 23rd Infantry Division which would be formed in Japan before moving to Korea.

The 4th Armor Cavalry Regiment would be new formation that would be rushed to Korea to give both Army Corps their heavy formation.

Just some thoughts.

[Legbreaker]

For Korea, Australia might be able to send over one infantry Brigade which would likely be 9 Brigade. It's current IRL strength is only about 35% but given 12 months it should be ready for action. I picked 9 Bde because it contains the southernmost units in the country and most acclimatised. Most other units train in the tropics while at least 12/40 Bn and 16 Field Battery know all about mountainous terrain and sub zero temps being drawn from Tasmania.

The heaviest armour is the 9 M113A1 MRVs (M113s with Scorpion turrets) although I'm tempted to add a troop of Leopard 1s.

9 Brigade
HQ 9 Brigade (Army Reserve)
3/9 Light Horse (South Australian Mounted Rifles) (APC) (M113) (Army Reserve)

M113 Regimental HQ Troop (M577)
Sabre squadron, A (M113AS4 x14)
Sabre squadron, B (M113AS4 x14)
Combat Support Squadron (M113A1 MRV x9, M113AS4 x3)

6/13 Field Regiment (Army Reserve)

16 Field Battery (M2A2 105mm howitzer x6, Unimog 1700L LWB x6)
48 Field Battery (M2A2 105mm howitzer x6, Unimog 1700L LWB x6)

3 Field Squadron (Combat Engineers) (Army Reserve)

144 Signal Squadron (9 Command Support Regiment) (Army Reserve)

10/27 Battalion, The Royal South Australian Regiment (Army Reserve)

12/40 Battalion, The Royal Tasmanian Regiment (Army Reserve)

A Company
B Company
C (Training) Company
Support Company

Mortar platoon (F2 81mm Mortar x4)
Heavy Weapons platoon (M60 SFMG x 6, M2 Carl Gustav x6
Assault Pioneer Platoon (weapons as per rifle platoon plus specialist equipment)

9 Combat Service Support Battalion (Army Reserve)

Transport Company
Health Company
Supply Company
Maintenance Company
Logistic Support Company

Still working on the orbat, but enough to get an idea of capabilities I think.
The rest of the Australian forces (besides a handful of naval assets) would be fully engaged against Indonesia or occupied in civil duties.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Eighth US Army

II Amphibious Corps
3rd Marine Division [1,200 men, 5 M1]
5th Marine Division [2,000 men, 9 M60A3]
6th Marine Division [1,600 men, 8 M60A3]
II Corps
7th Light Infantry Division [1,500 men, 3 M60A3]
23rd Infantry Division [1,500 men, 5 M1]
45th Infantry Division [2,000 men, 2 M60A3]
4th Armor Cavalry Regiment[500 men, 2 M60A3]
VI Corps
2nd Infantry Division [2,000 men, 4 M1]
25th Light Infantry Division [1,200 men, 5 M60A3]
41st Infantry Division [2,000 men, 3 M60A3]
163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment [300 men, 4 M60A3]

I feel that the 3rd Marine Division would of been committed to Korea before sent to the Middle East.

Also replaced the 26th Light Infantry with the 23rd Infantry Division which would be formed in Japan before moving to Korea.

The 4th Armor Cavalry Regiment would be new formation that would be rushed to Korea to give both Army Corps their heavy formation.

Just some thoughts.

Or simply swap 3rd and 4th Marine Divisions. Intresting idea. As for an ACR, there was talk in some of the old Armor Journals about adding additional ACRs to the Army in the late 80's; the numbers they were talking was 6th, 10th and 14th. No idea if these were the planned numbers, but all three have been former ACRs through the 50s-60s...so, reasonable assumption would go for those three.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

For Korea, Australia might be able to send over one infantry Brigade which would likely be 9 Brigade. It's current IRL strength is only about 35% but given 12 months it should be ready for action. I picked 9 Bde because it contains the southernmost units in the country and most acclimatised. Most other units train in the tropics while at least 12/40 Bn and 16 Field Battery know all about mountainous terrain and sub zero temps being drawn from Tasmania.

Still working on the orbat, but enough to get an idea of capabilities I think.
The rest of the Australian forces (besides a handful of naval assets) would be fully engaged against Indonesia or occupied in civil duties.

So Australia might commit a brigade, reinforced by anything from New Zealand?

Don't see any British commitment, short of moving the 6th Division over from Chinese control when Eighth Army reached the Yalu River. We were reacing to get something meaningful for the MEFF.

It is possible that Canada might furnish a battalion/brigade group, but we run into the same thing as far as force structure goes.

A member of my local gaming group suggested Japan might furnish a division or two for Korea, aside from the issues with the Japanese constitution, there is also the memories for the Koreans of the last time the Japanese were on the peninsula so I really doubt any troops from that source....any thoughts?

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

A member of my local gaming group suggested Japan might furnish a division or two for Korea, aside from the issues with the Japanese constitution, there is also the memories for the Koreans of the last time the Japanese were on the peninsula so I really doubt any troops from that source....any thoughts?

IMO, the Japanese could easily do that, and perhaps the Koreans have forgiven them enough to let it go, but are the ROKs really that hard-pressed? From what little I've read, the South Koreans can handle the North Koreans in a straight-up fight. The two US corps may even be overkill?

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

IMO, the Japanese could easily do that, and perhaps the Koreans have forgiven them enough to let it go, but are the ROKs really that hard-pressed? From what little I've read, the South Koreans can handle the North Koreans in a straight-up fight. The two US corps may even be overkill?

The problem is the Japanese Constitution, they are forbidden to dispatch military units outside of Japan. The unit that went to Iraq was a medical/engineer/security task force....and its deployment almost caused the fall of the government at that time, only its humanitarian mission saved it.

The deployment of a Japanese Destroyer to take part in the anti-piracy patrols also caused a lot of debate. The ROE it has to operate under is supposed to be the toughest one of any naval unit deployed, or so I'm told by a squid just returning from his reserve deployment there.

As for the ROK armed forces...tough little bastards by all accounts, discipline is high, training is strict and as realistic as possible...and the South Koreans outnumber the North Koreas by almost 2.5 to one, especially once all the reserves get called up. The sole purpose of the 2nd Infantry Division was as a symbol of UN/US commitment to maintain South Korea...at least in the timeframe of the game.

While I acknowledge that the North Korean goverment certainly marches to the beat of its own, insane drummer...would they try an attack on the ROK? Their biggest supporter is China with only limited Soviet support. If anything, I would think that the PRK would try to maintain a more neutral stance, at least until they could see a clear winner in the Sino-Soviet match.

And that means why would so many divisions be committed to Korea when they are so badly needed elsewhere? Food for thought...

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

The problem is the Japanese Constitution, they are forbidden to dispatch military units outside of Japan.

Sorry, I wasn't thinking clearly-- by "easily" I meant that they didn't have any pressing use for those forces on their own islands. I can't remember reading of any invasion there. {Probably lots of NK/Soviet commando hits, though.}

And that means why would so many divisions be committed to Korea when they are so badly needed elsewhere? Food for thought...

Indeed. If anything, the ROKs could be sending divisions to the Chinese.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Or simply swap 3rd and 4th Marine Divisions. Intresting idea. As for an ACR, there was talk in some of the old Armor Journals about adding additional ACRs to the Army in the late 80's; the numbers they were talking was 6th, 10th and 14th. No idea if these were the planned numbers, but all three have been former ACRs through the 50s-60s...so, reasonable assumption would go for those three.

Yeah I know I have heard of the 10th and 14th ACRs in the past.

Any ideas what the the Army plans were for their 6th and 21st Air Combat Cavalry Brigade. Did they have ground dismounts? The reason I ask is that US Vehicle guide shows the 6th ACCB with an Artillery Battalion. I know the 6th ACCB was more of the active unit of the two Brigade while the other was filled from other units. Both were based out of Fort Hood, until the 6th ACCB was moved to Korea as part of the 8th US Army.

Then with this Brigade how did they compare to the Aviation Brigades such as the 11th and 12th Aviation Brigade that were based with V and VII Corps in Germany and the 66th Aviation Brigade which I recall was largely a NG/Reserve formation for I Corps. I am assuming the the 6th ACCB had similar role being assigned to the III Corps. Ironically I can't recall the XVIII Airborne Corps aviation brigade...

[HorseSoldier]

14th ACR was, I believe, the last active duty ACR on the books besides the ones everyone is familiar with (when 11th ACR's colors came out of Vietnam, 14th ACR in Europe was reflagged as 11th).

Personally, I'd scrap VI Corps entirely and put all the troops in theater under II Corps and II MAF. Army units can serve under USMC higher headquarters and vice versa without drama, has been happening regularly since way before the current modularity vogue.

I can't see 3rd MarDiv going to Korea -- the war is won or lost based on possession of Middle Eastern oil. If the North Korean screaming hordes overrun South Korea and do a lemming job right on into the ocean it really means very little in the big picture, but Soviet airborne forces dropping on Riyadh means folks in Iowa either start learning the words to Internationale or the war goes very nuclear very quick to stave off inevitable defeat.

In addition, there's unlikely to be any rush to saturate Korea with foreign forces in terms of the circumstances anyway. On full mobilization the ROKA fields something like 40 divisions in the Twilight timeline, with all the bells and whistles of Corps/Army assets and SOF units. As I've stated previously, 2nd Korean War won't be a replay of the 1st War, and the North Koreans won't be rolling hellbent for leather for Pusan with the only hope being US or UN forces. With the Russians churning through China they're not going to be able to spare large concentrations to help the North Koreans until China completely collapses (and even then their hands will be tied to an extent holding anything they try to keep).

A reinforcing role for US/UN forces would likely only come into play if the plan was to go over onto the offensive against the DPRK, with at least some intent to change the Chinese/Russian equation and pull some Russian troops off the Chinese. This only matters at all after the Middle East is secured and if Europe is relatively stable.

It is possible that Canada might furnish a battalion/brigade group, but we run into the same thing as far as force structure goes.

I think that was mentioned in the Challenge article about Canada, with a brigade group being readied for service in Korea getting diverted to Alaska. I don't see Canada going in for a two front war with the dual burden of battle casualty replacements for Europe and bringing their reserves into a workable state. And, in a universe where the Soviets have the capability to actually mount an invasion of Alaska, a Canadian brigade group being opconned to USARAK seems rather more likely than lobbing them across the Pacific to Korea.

[Legbreaker]

Currently Australia has only two Divisions, with the 2nd made up of about 99% reservists and the 1st about 30% (give or take). Neither is intended to be deployed as a whole.
9 BDE could have been sent to Korea even though likely needed at home to defend against Indonesian landing efforts in an attempt to bring the US on board at least diplomatically (yes, I am aware of the ANZUS treaty obligations) - the US teetering on the bring of abandoning the treaty due to their entanglement on multiple pre-existing fronts (Europe, Korea, Middle East). 9 BDE may have freed up US assets more suited to the tropics than the Australian brigade (perhaps a few warships, a squadron of fighters, etc).

It's a stretch I know, but I like the idea of Australians involved in both rounds of the Korean War. The Koreans make fairly good substitute Russians too for those back home interested in the idea of payback for nuking the world.

I don't know much about the New Zealand military, however my thoughts are they are more likely to be involved against Indonesia than Korea (ANZUS treaty obligations). Their FV101 Scorpions would prove a match against the fairly light armour of the Indonesians but chewed up and spat out by North Korean T-55s.

[atiff]

I'm not an expert on the NZ military either, although I am a Kiwi so I know where to look for info. From recent historical evidence, a large deployment out of NZ is unlikely. We simply don't have the capabilities to support a large operation out-of-country; we generally piggy-back off of others.

The way I see it, the first Asian front to kick off (say, Korea) would get some NZers, especially if Aus sent troops. First in would be the SAS, and probably a medical detachment, and some Hercs doing support work. If there was a larger need, regular troops would come a bit later (would likely need training and reserve call-up).

Then if Indonesia went off, much of that might get called home, or to Australia, to support from there. The Navy would lend some support, likely a frigate joining the Aussies. And we still had a combat airforce then, so No. 2 Squadron (upgraded Skyhawks) would probably be helping too (No. 2 was equipped with ex-Royal Aus. Navy A4s, and based in NSW, Aus. in the 90's).

All up, I would say a squadron of SAS, a battalion of regulars (after training), some support troops, a few Hercs, a frigate and No. 2 Squadron would all that would end up outside of NZ.

Oh, and we kinda got booted out of ANZUS over that whole "no nukes" thing Wonder if Marsden Point oil refinery received some attention nevertheless.....

Andrew

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Yeah I know I have heard of the 10th and 14th ACRs in the past.

Any ideas what the the Army plans were for their 6th and 21st Air Combat Cavalry Brigade. Did they have ground dismounts? The reason I ask is that US Vehicle guide shows the 6th ACCB with an Artillery Battalion. I know the 6th ACCB was more of the active unit of the two Brigade while the other was filled from other units. Both were based out of Fort Hood, until the 6th ACCB was moved to Korea as part of the 8th US Army.

Then with this Brigade how did they compare to the Aviation Brigades such as the 11th and 12th Aviation Brigade that were based with V and VII Corps in Germany and the 66th Aviation Brigade which I recall was largely a NG/Reserve formation for I Corps. I am assuming the the 6th ACCB had similar role being assigned to the III Corps. Ironically I can't recall the XVIII Airborne Corps aviation brigade...

GDW dropped the ball on the artillery battalion attached to 6ACCB, the only place I could anywhere that even mentions doing this was an article in the Field Artillery Journal that talked about assigning a MLRS battalion to them for Deep Strike Missions. This is the only place this has ever been mentioned.

The make up of 6ACCB during the Twilight period was four "cavalry" squadrons (none of which had 6th Cavalry) that were renamed attack helicopter battalions. Unlike the 11th/12th Aviation Brigades which have General Support (OH-58C), a Combat Support (UH-60), a attack helicopter (AH-64) and a medium helicopter (CH-47) battalions.

III Corps for the REFORGER role was always intended as the counter attack force, thats why it had two armored divisions (1st Cavalry and 2nd) as well as the 6ACCB.

Evil Grin...the name of the XVIII Airborne Corps Aviation Brigade, is the 18th Aviation Brigade.....setup was the same as 11th/12th, but lacked the CH-47 battalion.