More stupid U.S. Marines

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I was hoping to keep this discussion going in a constructive direction but this is starting to get silly. WFS, your posts are starting to smack of Holocaust Denial. You are welcome to share your dissenting opinions here, but the Holocaust and wider Nazi attrocities and the participation of SS troops in both are backed by mountains- literally mountains- of evidence.

Let's get real and address this topic in a mature, responsible way, or this thread will be shut down.

Where did I say the Holocaust didn't happen? Sure it happened and there was personel from the SS formations involved, but that doesn't not make everyone or everything dealing with the SS about the Holocaust. Yes this guy was/is a Holocaust extremist. He eats, sleeps, and shits Holocaust. That is my point. I don't subscribe to the "its ok for these guys to do this, but not these guys over here" camp. Waffen SS were combat troops. It's the media that has lumped them all in the same block cheese and we have swallowed that misconception time and time again.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by ShadoWarrior

I got that it was a joke. Just one in bad taste, and rife with logical fallacies that screamed to be pointed out.

Well that's just too bad, because I thought it was funny, irregardless of the poor logic - which was the point of the humor.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

I'm not going to rehash the arguments already made by posters who can and have done so more eloquently than I can.

but supposedly the runic SS logo has been in use by USMC scout snipers for some time now, have there never been any USMC scout snipers of Jewish descent?

Yes, I remember one from the 7th he was I guess a bad ass- a arrogant dickhead, but they said he was a machine. I never saw a black Marine in STA platoon, but I'm sure there is one out there. Asian I seen and latino too. The Marine Corps in general is white and latino heavy for whatever reason. The sig runes have nothing to do with racist beliefs for these men. It's more a bad ass thing. A killer elite if you will. Snipers install fear and apparently so does sig runes.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Snipers install fear and apparently so does sig runes.

Really? For me the SS runes instill revulsion, not fear.

[Raellus]

WTF, you and I might know what the Waffen SS was, and how they were distinct than the SS that ran the death camps, but the general public does not. Symbols often transcend their origins and, for better or for worse, the SS lightening bolt runes are inseparably linked to the Holocaust, mass murder, and genocide. If you don't understand this, or refuse to accept it, then there's no more that anyone here can say that will convice you of the foolishness and bad taste (...at best; rank racism/anti-semitism at worst) shown by these Marines who chose to use the SS runes as their unofficial symbol.

To those who keep asserting that the Marine scout snipers have been using this symbol "for years", once again, what are you basing this on?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

It's the media that has lumped them all in the same block cheese and we have swallowed that misconception time and time again.

Maybe it is a misconception, but it's the way the vast majority of the population of this planet we all live on perceive it to be. The true reality has little to do with it.

And because of that perception, the symbols associated with the Nazi regime MUST be treated carefully and NOT applied to units, entities and situations that don't want to be lumped into the same group of evil.

Anyone who can't, or refuses to see the truth of the situation is just asking for trouble.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Maybe it is a misconception, but it's the way the vast majority of the population of this planet we all live on perceive it to be. The true reality has little to do with it.

And because of that perception, the symbols associated with the Nazi regime MUST be treated carefully and NOT applied to units, entities and situations that don't want to be lumped into the same group of evil.

Anyone who can't, or refuses to see the truth of the situation is just asking for trouble.

Well, then the world needs to learn the truth, instead of jump on the bandwagon of misconcept. It could also be said for people that dispell the Holocaust. If it wasn't for self thought and studying we still think the colonization was a cute story with John Smith banging Pocahontas and Pilgrims and Indians eating a Thanksgiving turkey. If people keep drinking the coolade it will lead nowhere but down.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Raellus

WTF, you and I might know what the Waffen SS was, and how they were distinct than the SS that ran the death camps, but the general public does not. Symbols often transcend their origins and, for better or for worse, the SS lightening bolt runes are inseparably linked to the Holocaust, mass murder, and genocide. If you don't understand this, or refuse to accept it, then there's no more that anyone here can say that will convice you of the foolishness and bad taste (...at best; rank racism/anti-semitism at worst) shown by these Marines who chose to use the SS runes as their unofficial symbol.

To those who keep asserting that the Marine scout snipers have been using this symbol "for years", once again, what are you basing this on?

I know they used to use them before I was even in. A relative told me of this practice who was in during the early 90's. And this picture confirms that they still must be doing this years after my leaving the Marine Corps. So yeah, it's been there a while and no jews or other non ayrans have been gased or put into ovens. What has this do gooder whistle blower done............. nothing of value.

[waiting4something]

I bet alot of jihadists see western troops as racists or culturally insensitive to muslims. And I would bet a lot of western troops are with or without merit this very thing. But that doesn't mean everyone or symbol associated with this should be seen as such. The guilty by association belief doesn't always turn out so true. It just makes it easier for us to look at our on faces in mirror when we make snap decisions that need justification.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I know they used to use them before I was even in. A relative told me of this practice who was in during the early 90's. And this picture confirms that they still must be doing this years after my leaving the Marine Corps. So yeah, it's been there a while and no jews or other non ayrans have been gased or put into ovens.

Well if nothing else this discussion has shown that some people think the use of the SS rune symbol by US Marines is a matter of concern and others do not. For those of us who think it's a concern, hearing that the SS runes have been used by some Marines for many years doesn't make us think "oh, well, if they've been using it for years it's all ok then, forget my previous objections". For me all it does is make me wonder how the hell it was allowed to continue for so long without someone with some authority putting a stop to it.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

What has this do gooder whistle blower done............. nothing of value.

I (and I suspect a majority of members here) would clearly disagree with you that nothing of value has come out of this situation being dealt with. I think putting a stop to the use of the SS runes by USMC scout/snipers is of great value. And the use of the term "do-gooder" as a pejorative term has confused me for a long time. I admit that I'm a bit of a lefty and definitely what most Americans would term a 'liberal' so maybe that's why I almost always find that the actions of those termed 'do-gooder' by those of a more right-wing bent tend to be actions that I agree with. The part that confuses me is why you'd use those two words as a derogatory term? What is inherently wrong with trying to do good?

I don't know anything about that Dr Beorn guy other than what's written in the article that copeab posted a link to but even if he is some kind of Holocaust obsessive, I didn't find anything wrong with the statements the article quotes him as making. He specifically said he isn't calling for heads to roll or court martials to be instigated for those in the photo. He said the strongest measures he'd like to see taken against them were non-judicial punishment and some remedial education. Help me out here, what am I missing? Why are any of those statements unreasonable?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

Well, then the world needs to learn the truth, instead of jump on the bandwagon of misconcept.

Yeah, good luck with that. Personally I'll content myself with not bashing my brains out on the brick wall of impossibility thanks.

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I know they used to use them before I was even in. A relative told me of this practice who was in during the early 90's.

That just goes to show it's an ingrained problem that's been going on far, far too long in the shadows. It doesn't make it right.

By itself it's just a couple of squiggles and there's nothing wrong with that. BUT it's got one hell of a load of baggage which isn't going to diminish for another few generations. THAT's where the problem lies. What people associate with the symbols isn't going to change in our lifetimes and, has been said time and time again both here in this forum and in the world generally, allowances must be made accordingly.

[Ironside]

The difference between the Waffen SS and the Allgemeine (or General) SS is not clear cut. SS Division 3 Totenkopf was formed from concentration camp guards and its original commander Theodor Eicke was previously Head of the Concentration Camp Inspectorate. Also Waffen SS personel were sometimes posted to camp guard duty while convalesent or as a punishment.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Yeah, good luck with that. Personally I'll content myself with not bashing my brains out on the brick wall of impossibility thanks.


That just goes to show it's an ingrained problem that's been going on far, far too long in the shadows. It doesn't make it right.

By itself it's just a couple of squiggles and there's nothing wrong with that. BUT it's got one hell of a load of baggage which isn't going to diminish for another few generations. THAT's where the problem lies. What people associate with the symbols isn't going to change in our lifetimes and, has been said time and time again both here in this forum and in the world generally, allowances must be made accordingly.

Well I am not gonna disagree on the fact that people like to not consider the possiblity of what has been shoved down their throats their whole lives is not actually the truth. And yeah as long some guy like Mr. Do Gooder is around to preach his version of what is morally right, it won't go away.

[waiting4something]

Targan do you really believe that all that is gonna happen to these STA members is gonna be some reeducation "camp" or a NJP? I don't think so. Now that this dope has put this out in the media the Marine Corps will try to distance themselves as fast and as far as they can. They will fucking derail these guys. This clown that that ratted them out knows this too. He may try to look like he's such a noble hereo, but he is just a wolf in sheeps clothing none the less. And NJP's really aren't a good thing in record book. It's not like it's just parking ticket. Good intentions hhhhmmmmmm. Good intentions are what the road to hell is paved with.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Ironside

The difference between the Waffen SS and the Allgemeine (or General) SS is not clear cut. SS Division 3 Totenkopf was formed from concentration camp guards and its original commander Theodor Eicke was previously Head of the Concentration Camp Inspectorate. Also Waffen SS personel were sometimes posted to camp guard duty while convalesent or as a punishment.

I will not dispute that Waffen SS members at Camps. They were some, but that no way makes it accurate to make the entire Waffen SS as mad man hell bent immoral practices, like so many people believe.

[Ironside]

That's true; and indeed towards the end of the war many surplus Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine personel was drafted en-masse into the Waffen SS.

The trouble is, that while people who have studied the subject know that truth is rarely simple, the Man on the Clapham Omnibus (or American equivalent), doesn't. Unfortunately in the current educational and intellectual climate he's unlikely to want to find out either.

My opinion though, is that the original photo-session is at best, an error of judgement.

[Grimace]

Now there's even more people "on the bandwagon". I saw an article this morning that talked about a growing public outcry over a combat post in Afghanistan named "Aryan".

The Military Religious Freedom Front (MRFF) has started smearing the Army now, claiming they have soldiers from the U.S. and from Afghanistan that have complained about a combat post named Aryan. An official complaint was lodged against the military, who looked into the matter and released a statement saying that there was no ISAF combat base by that name. They did say that the Afghanis have a combat outpost named Arian, and went on to explain that the Afghanis also have a news outlet and an airlines named Arian. There are also Arian tribes in the general geographic region.

The MRFF has said that the military's response was "inadequate".

Of course, in the article, they mentioned several times about the "Marines that displayed a flag that appeared to be from the SS". Pretty safe to assume that every little misconception is going to be blown way out of proportion now.

Even when our military doesn't do anything, they still get blamed for being politically incorrect. Only this time, it's the Army and not the Marines.

[copeab]

I've thought this over for a few days and come to the opinion that this was very poor judgment on the part of the Marines involved. While I think that can be forgiven for enlisted/junior NCOs, it can't be tolerated in senior NCOs or officers. I'm not saying they should go to prison but I don't think their careers should last longer. Those in positions of leadership must show better judgment than was exercised here.

[cavtroop]

tangentially related: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/0...trage-021312w/

*faceplam*

[copeab]

Unless some soldier deliberately changed 'Arian' to 'Aryan' I'd tell the foundation to bugger off.

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by copeab

Unless some soldier deliberately changed 'Arian' to 'Aryan' I'd tell the foundation to bugger off.

yes, but its the LAST thing the military needs hitting the front page right now.

[Raellus]

Waiting For Something, your argument that the Waffen SS "wasn't so bad" seems to overlook several very troubling facts. The Waffen SS were involved in numerous war crimes unrelated to the death camps. The Malmedy massacre is the most famous example here in the U.S. There are several other notable examples as well. IIRC, 12th SS Panzer Division (Hitler Jugend) troops massacred a score of Canadian prisoners in Normandy. The 2nd SS Panzer Division (Das Reich) also massacred hundreds of French civilians on their way to Normandy as "reprisals" for Resistance sabotage attacks). And finally, Waffen SS units routinely participated in the unlawful killing of Soviet prisoners and civilians on the Ostfront.

Although not ALL individual Waffen SS men participated in war crimes, the Waffen SS organization as a whole is not without taint. To claim that the Waffen SS was above the sort of barbarity routinely displayed by the camp guard SS or Sonderkommando units is completely disingenous.

And I'm sorry but "my buddy told that the scout snipers have been using the SS runes for a long time" is just not credible.

[Legbreaker]

Okay, I'm just going to come out and say what I'm sure plenty of others are thinking. It appears a poster or two may have nazi leanings or at least be a nazi appologist.
Maybe it's just me, maybe it's just the way they've expressed themselves, but it's an impression I at least have been getting.

If true, it's not really a surprise. After all, this is a community of people with an interest in warfare and killing and all that which goes with it. We're bound to attract the odd nut from time to time.
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to express themselves either. They, just like everyone else only need to back up their arguements with checkable facts and evidence.

And if worst comes to worst, there's always the block feature.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by cavtroop

yes, but its the LAST thing the military needs hitting the front page right now.

True, but I'm not the military so I can tell them to sod off

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Waiting For Something, your argument that the Waffen SS "wasn't so bad" seems to overlook several very troubling facts. The Waffen SS were involved in numerous war crimes unrelated to the death camps. The Malmedy massacre is the most famous example here in the U.S. There are several other notable examples as well. IIRC, 12th SS Panzer Division (Hitler Jugend) troops massacred a score of Canadian prisoners in Normandy. The 2nd SS Panzer Division (Das Reich) also massacred hundreds of French civilians on their way to Normandy as "reprisals" for Resistance sabotage attacks). And finally, Waffen SS units routinely participated in the unlawful killing of Soviet prisoners and civilians on the Ostfront.

Although not ALL individual Waffen SS men participated in war crimes, the Waffen SS organization as a whole is not without taint. To claim that the Waffen SS was above the sort of barbarity routinely displayed by the camp guard SS or Sonderkommando units is completely disingenous.

You show me a military that has not commented some type of bad act. I bet you can't. You keep coming at me like I have said the Waffen SS were some kind of angels that never did some bad stuff. I never once said that. I merely pointed the fact they have along with everyone else it's just everyone makes a huge deal out of them while giving everyone less lightning on the stage.

And I'm sorry but "my buddy told that the scout snipers have been using the SS runes for a long time" is just not credible.

While Raellus on that last comment all I can say is I was not doing interviews on research on matter. I simply do not see it as a big and don't really care. If I would have know some guy named Raellus years later would be so upset and want to doubt my story I would have built a case file for you.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Okay, I'm just going to come out and say what I'm sure plenty of others are thinking. It appears a poster or two may have nazi leanings or at least be a nazi appologist.
Maybe it's just me, maybe it's just the way they've expressed themselves, but it's an impression I at least have been getting.

If true, it's not really a surprise. After all, this is a community of people with an interest in warfare and killing and all that which goes with it. We're bound to attract the odd nut from time to time.
But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to express themselves either. They, just like everyone else only need to back up their arguements with checkable facts and evidence.

And if worst comes to worst, there's always the block feature.

Let me guess I'm a Nazi appologist. Just because I don't run with the crowd and say what is the PC thing to say. Everyone today is supposed to go "Oh my god" the SS is so evil." " A evil like that has never existed ever before." How the in the world are they any worse they any group that has done horrible things in the past, present, or future. That is my point. How they fail to see this I have know idea? Of course through out life people have been shown the evils of Nazi Germany in the spotlight. Was there evils there, yeah fuckin A there was, but for some reason they are the only ones that take the brunt. They are like the Charles Mansion on evil military doings. There maybe be bigger slaughters that happen but everyone only remembers there name.
Maybe it's because the SS was such sharp dressers? tThe black uniforms, skulls, lightning bolts, jack boots, etc. Maybe it was all the experiments on people or new equipment? And watch out he's a really dangerous comment I will make. Maybe it's, because Hollywood keeps the thing alive. Alot of of Hollywoods elite are Jewish. Oh my god I said it. But yeah people of Jewish faith where targets of the Nazi system, so of course they will keep it alive and focus more on that then anything else. How's that for pc? My point is just because a system has bad people doesn't mean the system is a whole is bad. For some reason people can't deal with that fact. I don't appolize anymore for one bad apple over the other. Unfortunately that is not the case with others.

[Targan]

So basically you're saying that the Nazis were naughty but no naughtier than lots of other people and in any case were terribly misunderstood? I'm not sure if humour was what you were aiming for, waiting4something, but you've given me a belly laugh on an otherwise boring day for me so I thank you!

[waiting4something]

Yes that's right they were naughty just like a lot of groups in history. Misunderstood? What do you mean by that you Jolly old soul?

[Ironside]

I don't know if I am thought a Nazi (or at least SS) apologist. As it happens, I'm not. I have studied the subject somewhat and I like to get facts across as well as I can.

The Waffen SS routinely committed atrocities; apart from those already mentioned, British soldiers were massacred at Esquelbecq/Wormhout and Le Paradise in 1940. The sum total of murders committed by them will doubtless never be known. Not every individual member of the SS took part in such things, but the organisation most certainly did.

Please remember also, that it wasn't just the Jewish people who suffered. Gypsies, homosexuals, the disabled, Jehovah's Witnesses, political opponents and anybody the Nazis didn't like very much were exterminated too.

What makes the Nazis different from previous tyrannies was that they controlled a modern, 20th century industrialised society and their extermination campaign was carried out on an industrial scale using industrial methods.

The Nazis irrevocably altered world history and this needs to be studied and remembered if only to try and stop it from happening again.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Ironside

The Waffen SS routinely committed atrocities; apart from those already mentioned, British soldiers were massacred at Esquelbecq/Wormhout and Le Paradise in 1940. The sum total of murders committed by them will doubtless never be known. Not every individual member of the SS took part in such things, but the organisation most certainly did.

I think mentioning the shooting of prisoners by the SS is only going to invoke a response that lists off the times when allied troops massacred unarmed prisoners or civilians in equally cold blood. The nazi regime, and therefore the SS, can be criticized for their ruthless barbarity easily enough without such references.

Otherwise this will be going in an endless spiral... even more so than it is now.