OT: Seriously????

[Targan]

Wow. That was impressively comprehensive. Thanks Web.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by CDAT

So in closing I would say what is best for self-defense is what you are best able to use to keep you safe and not put undue danger on those around you.

Your logic is hard to argue with but I would point out that the firearm I have put the most rounds through and therefore would be most effective with is the Commonwealth version of the FN-FAL. Let's be honest, as a home defence weapon that would be massive overkill and 7.62N rounds would probably punch through several home invaders, and the front wall of my house, and the front fence, and travel who knows how far through my neighborhood.

Having said that, I'd still love to have one in my possession at home if it was legal.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by CDAT

It is a well done article, I do however disagree with you on this point. A pistol is a terrible home defense weapon, the only thing that it has going for it is that it is easy to carry and or move with, for home defense that does not really apply if you are not trained to move with a weapon odds are you will not do it right regardless of what you have. If you are staying put in a locked room as lots of police departments recommend now how easy it is to carry and/or move with makes no difference. Now the shotgun has most of the advantages that the rifle has and as most people know the sound alone is enough to scare most bad men away, plus it is much easier to hit with as you only need to be pointing in the general direction. Both of these are wrong and if you are depending on them may get you killed. My background I did 20 years in the Army, and a bit over 8 as a Federal Police officer (firearms instructor among other ting I did), our shotguns (bought in the 1960's) will put all of the shot in the face at 75ft. I have also had the opportunity to shoot different things, the shotgun penetrated the best (Slug) and the buckshot was about as good as the AR, we use .40 sidearms and they were the worst. The shotgun also has the most recoil now if you have a one shot stop that does not matter much, they do happen not much but does happen. What about if there are more than one bad guy? Multiple attackers are happening more and more, last stats I saw had home invasions on the rise, they do not have to worry about you coming home and surprising them. So my choice for a home defense weapon is my M4 with suppressor it is more accurate than the handgun, easier to shoot so I am more likely to hit. If I do miss the bullet has less chance to penetrate multiple walls as there is only one not nine every time I pull the trigger. A saying we have is you own the bullet from the time you fire it tell it comes to a stop and the average cost of a miss is about $1 mil. But the biggest reason I pick the AR is that with all the training I have with it, it has become an extension of my body. Every time I pull the shotgun out of the rack I have to look at it as I do not remember if left is safe or is right, and if the fecal matter hits the oscillating blade and I need more ammo that is much easier with a magazine feed weapon the a tube feed. So in closing I would say what is best for self-defense is what you are best able to use to keep you safe and not put undue danger on those around you.

A very good reply, sir. Very reasonable. I almost forget we’re on the Internet.

I must admit that my statement about sense and choosing the AR-15 for home defense is hyperbolic. Point taken on that one. (I’m using you guys as a beta test, so this feedback is very useful.)

That much said, you have a unique comfort with the AR-15 based on your experience. One wonders how many people who might use an AR-15, AK-47, FAL, etc for home defense share your level of training and experience. People who have it and are not well versed in its use indoors are a hazard to themselves and their neighbors. Many who think they are going to be stellar performers in CQB learn otherwise once the real thing comes along. Trigger control under stress requires drill. As you rightfully point out, you own every round that goes downrange. (I wish everyone in Iraq had remembered that.) Based on your observation about the best weapon for self-defense being that which one can use to keep oneself safe without undue danger to those around, I would say that the semi-auto detachable magazine-fed rifle is not the best choice for any but a select few.

I haven't executed CQB with a handgun, so I'm not able to comment on it. I'll readily agree that lack of proper training presents a problem for anyone attempting CQB. I will file your comments about utility for home defense away and think about them some more.

I deliberately left the shotgun out so far because it is so versatile. I think most people would agree with you that the shotgun is far superior to the handgun for almost all purposes. I haven’t gotten to the shotgun in my narrative because this type of weapon defies the easier categorization that marks the handgun v the bolt action rifle v the semi-auto rifle.

I have a tangential question: when the law enforcement types of the world started the switch away from the 9mm, why was the switch made to .40 caliber instead of the M1911? Time and time again I read that people in the know think the M1911 is the best all-around handgun available. Is there a rationale beyond politics and magazine capacity?

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Targan

Having said that, I'd still love to have one [FN FAL] in my possession at home if it was legal.

So say we all. As I continue to read on the Rhodesian War 80-90% of the commentary about the FAL is positive. One of my room mates in Cork, Ireland was a reservist in the Army of Ireland while we were attending University College Cork. He loved the FAL. He was trained as a sniper, and one of the things he liked about the FAL was that it offered the ability to reach out and touch targets with something approaching the range and power he was accustomed to, compared to the M16 or AK-47, yet with a semi-auto ability. I've never fired one. I've never even held one in my hands. I wouldn't choose it for a primary weapon in the US due to ammunition commonality considerations. But I do hear good things.

It occurs to me that I never addressed your question, Targan, which is whether gun owners in the United States think they are part of a militia by dint of owning a gun. I can’t think of an easy answer to that question, though you’d think there should be one.

Do most Americans think they are part of a militia that would be recognized by their 1780’s counterparts? Goodness, no! Keep the Devil between me and monthly drill.

Do most Americans think they are part of the so-called “unorganized militia”? This is harder to answer. I can say with confidence that many American gun owners believe whole-heartedly in the “unorganized militia”. And why not? Suppressing the cognitive dissonance resulting from using the term “unorganized militia” enables one to believe that one should have access to the weapons of overthrowing tyranny without having any obligations associated with said possession. Blame Title 10 and Alexander Hamilton for this. I rather doubt that very many gun owners who just have handguns believe they are part of a militia, but that’s just speculation on my part.

There’s a fair amount of mythology associated with the “unorganized militia”. Title 10 of the Code of Federal Regulations started the ball rolling on this thing only a few years after the Constitution was ratified. This is the origin of the term “unorganized militia”. Doubtless you will discern my contempt for the term, my friends. I find “unorganized militia” has all the etymological logic of “dehydrated water”. Calling a mass of civilians in possession of firearms an “unorganized militia” is like calling a truckload of lumber and a bucket of nails an “unorganized house”. Suggesting that the republic shall be kept warm and dry by this “unorganized house” is a farce. Yet Title 10 as written has standing.

Belief in the idea of the “unorganized militia” is reinforced by popular mythology about the American Revolution in general and Lexington and Concord in particular. Americans seem to widely believe that farmers ran in from the fields, grabbed their muskets off the wall, and went off to defeat one of the best professional armies in the world as necessary. The expedient of hiding behind trees and rocks, combined with “true patriotism”, is held up as a force equal to organization, training, and discipline on the part of the British and their mercenaries. While this fantasy does not bear up under the slightest scrutiny, it dovetails with the traditional American aversion to militarization. Americans hate the draft. Believing that it is possible to defeat a well-trained, well-equipped, and well-disciplined professional force by employing a few basic tricks and calling on one’s deep love of country helps justify a general refusal to countenance compulsory service.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Targan

Your logic is hard to argue with but I would point out that the firearm I have put the most rounds through and therefore would be most effective with is the Commonwealth version of the FN-FAL. Let's be honest, as a home defence weapon that would be massive overkill and 7.62N rounds would probably punch through several home invaders, and the front wall of my house, and the front fence, and travel who knows how far through my neighborhood.

Having said that, I'd still love to have one in my possession at home if it was legal.

Yes the 7.62N is a powerful round but depending on the laws you can select ammo that will penetrate less (a hollow point that opens quick), and by being more accurate less likely to miss. One round that hits the bad guy and then goes through the next wall is better (safer) than six rounds that miss, in my opinion. Also there are exceptions to every rule, I do not care how much experience you have with the M2HB a .50 on tripod is not a good choice.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I have a tangential question: when the law enforcement types of the world started the switch away from the 9mm, why was the switch made to .40 caliber instead of the M1911? Time and time again I read that people in the know think the M1911 is the best all-around handgun available. Is there a rationale beyond politics and magazine capacity?

I know I got in trouble for it before but I still feel that more women in law enforcement necessitated the move away from higher calibers due to even those with athletic training not having sufficient grip strength.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=10

[kalos72]

My families personal preference for dedicated home defense is the shotgun all the way.

Assuming a pistol backup, nothing like filling a hallway with automatic shotgun fire to deter an enemy. With companies like Saiga and their magazine fed 12ga down to 410ga its down right ugly.

For my wife, muzzle control and aim won't be as much of an issue with the 410, just point it in the right direction and fire. Through in some slugs every couple of rounds and its a done deal.

Now if we are talking about armed organized invaders, a short barreled AR is much better suited. But the average burglar is NOT going to stick around long if they are getting suppressed by automatic shotgun fire...

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by kato13

I know I got in trouble for it before but I still feel that more women in law enforcement necessitated the move away from the M1911 due to even those with athletic training not having sufficient grip strength.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=10

I've heard a rumor that some departments are going back to 9MM because of recoil complaints. I'm a M1911 guy, but an agency with diverse firearms views should get Glocks or revolvers. Same with planning a shelter for SHTF.

[kalos72]

Supposedly the Gen 4 Glocks have very little recoil, I wonder how 45 feels through one now?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by kato13

I know I got in trouble for it before but I still feel that more women in law enforcement necessitated the move away from higher calibers due to even those with athletic training not having sufficient grip strength.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=10

I actually have practical experience here. I was the Range Training Officer for Fidelity Armored and assisted my Department's RTO at the County. It wasn't women who were the problem with high recoil weapons. It was everyone we were getting. America HAD a proud tradition of firearms ownership, but starting around the turn of the century that began to change. We began getting recruits who had never fired a gun at all. Many of these men and women came from urban areas and a large number of them had never even been in a fist fight before they came to us.

The 9mm verses, .40 S&W, verses .45ACP has a couple of issues that cause 9mm dominance. First is the size and weight of the weapon's frame. The 9mm has the smallest frame, lightest weight, and highest capacity (13 to 15) of the three primary police calibers. The .40 falls in the middle with an 11 to 13 round capacity, and the .45 has the largest and heaviest frame for an average round count of just 7 to 8 rounds. Here is the real mindblower in the debate though. The average Energy of a 9mm (no matter the bullet weight) is between 340 ft/lbs and 380 ft/lbs. The average Energy of a 180 grain (but NOT a 165 grain) .40 S&W is just over 400 ft/lbs. The average Energy of a .45ACP in a 230 grain loading is just 360 ft/lbs on average. As you can see from those numbers; There is only about a 50 ft/lb variation between the three calibers. If your getting the same Energy dump from all three calibers; You are better off picking the lightest weapon you can easily shoot. The smaller calibers will cost you less in firearms (initial costs and maintenance) and ammo costs. The fact that 9mmP also recoils less doesn't hurt either. My County adopted the .40 in the 165 grain HP loading because we upped our Energy Dump to 480 ft/lbs out of our Glock 23's and SIG 229's. This round had significant recoil compared to the lighter 180 grain loads though (especially in the Glock). We then upgraded to the .357 SIG round which increased our Energy Dump to well above 500 ft/lbs (depending on whether the 125 or 135 grain bullets were used). There were deputies who had significant issues qualifying with the .357 SIG (especially since we used an older qualification that had a 30 meter target in it). This prompted the sheriff to authorize both the .357 SIG and the .40 S&W.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Supposedly the Gen 4 Glocks have very little recoil, I wonder how 45 feels through one now?

They have the same recoil as the previous generations had. The advantage is that you can configure the backstraps to better fit your hand. This reduces muzzle climb and directs the recoil straight back into your hand (for better recoil control). This allows for faster follow up shots. Considering how light most polymer framed guns are; This is a very important upgrade.

Pro tip: You should never "resist" recoil (try to hold down the muzzle during recoil) or "lock" your wrist against recoil. You should hold your weapon as firmly as you would hold a hammer when driving nails. Firm enough to prevent "side to side squirm" but not with a "death grip." You should allow a pistol to "ride up" through it's recoil and concentrate on returning your wrists/hands to their "prefiring position." By not resisting the recoil and focusing on the return of your hands (and the weapon) to your initial "point of aim," you will suffer less "discomfort" in your hands and recover from shot to shot faster.

[kalos72]

Never owning a Glock myself...but I am told that the double springs in the new Glocks make for a reduced felt recoil. Not sure...

[swaghauler]

I have produced an Energy Dump chart for Twilight2000 that uses the caliber's Energy Ratings (determined by bullet weight in grains multiplied by Velocity, then by velocity again, then by the constant 0.000002218) to determine the number of Damage Dice per Range Band in game. I have yet to type it up (It's my trucking co's busy season since we haul pipe). I'll try to post it for your use. All you have to do is look up a round's Energy (both the Shooters Bible and Gun Digest have printed charts in their books for my fellow "Old Schoolers"). You can find these at all of the ammo manufacturers' websites. You then compare the round in question's Energy at a given Range Band to the chart. This tells you the number of damage dice that round does in a given range band. I have ONE set of Energies for pistol and SMG rounds and a second for rifles. Be prepared to be surprised by the chart AND the Energies listed for various rounds. Preparing the chart was an "eye-opener" for me.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Never owning a Glock myself...but I am told that the double springs in the new Glocks make for a reduced felt recoil. Not sure...

I does have a small effect on both felt recoil AND also reliability; As Glock can tell you from their recall of the gen 4 models (mostly 9mm's). They put .40 S&W springs in the gen 4 G19 and the guns wouldn't run. There was just too much spring strength for the 9mm. Everyone who had a recalled gun did say it was the "lightest" recoiling pistol they had ever shot. Too bad they wouldn't function properly.

[Webstral]

All very interesting. I have no experience with the .40 caliber or the .357 SIG. I have some experience with the M1911, and I find it very manageable. I had a girlfriend who went shooting with me and found the M1911 very manageable once I showed her how to hold it properly. She was a little lady, too. She struggled with .357 Magnum, even though my large frame revolver has a fair amount of inertia. Her feedback was that she felt she could fire an M1911 all day, whereas after 7 rounds of .357 Magnum from a revolver she was done.

In any event, I would not care to try to provide the security of a free state with any handgun as my primary weapon.

[Raellus]

The last decade saw a huge swing away from 9mmP to .40 cal S&W as the prefered "self-defense" caliber here in the U.S.A. There are "scientific" and opinion pieces ad-nauseum online supporting the latter as the better self-defense round. There are probably an equal number championing the 9mmP round. During this time, law enforcement, both federal and state migrated en masse to .40 cal S&W. It appears, however, that a swing back to 9mmP is underway. There are a couple of reasons why but one of them is apparently the stress that the 40mmS&W cartridge places on the working parts of most modern handguns. Slide cracks and other damage occurs in .40 cal S&W handguns much sooner than it does in those firing 9mmP. The U.S. Army has been looking, on and off, at potential replacements for the M9 pistol during this last decade, specifically at larger calibers, but the greater wear and tear exerted by .40 and .45 caliber rounds has, so far, held it back. We shall see.

I've only ever fired 9mm handguns so I can't personally comment as to felt recoil and controlability vis-a-vis other pistol calibers.

[Webstral]

I have an open-ended question for this crew. What would distinguish a shotgun design intended for self-defense or hunting from military applications? I understand that some shotguns can serve in all three roles. More so than with other firearms, a shotgun’s roles are like a Venn diagram. However certain characteristics, like automatic fire, probably distinguish shotguns optimized for combat from shotguns for self-defense or hunting. I’m curious what this crew thinks.

[kalos72]

choke, tube capacity, gauge and stock.

In no particular order...

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I have an open-ended question for this crew. What would distinguish a shotgun design intended for self-defense or hunting from military applications? I understand that some shotguns can serve in all three roles. More so than with other firearms, a shotgun’s roles are like a Venn diagram. However certain characteristics, like automatic fire, probably distinguish shotguns optimized for combat from shotguns for self-defense or hunting. I’m curious what this crew thinks.

This is an interesting question when you consider the weapon's tactical application. The primary advantage of the shotgun is in its flexibility of payload. The US military has determined that the only effective role for the shotgun is in CQB or breeching operations. The shotgun IS being evaluated as a "specialist weapon" for Marine Corps FAST teams where the scattergunner will have breeching rounds, the new TASER rounds, ILLUM, and beanbag rounds to deal with varying shipboard threats. There's even a small grenade round in development. This is the best role for the shotgun. With an effective range of just 25 to 35 meters with buck (50 meters with flechette) and a range of only about 100 meters with a slug (150m with a Sabot); your going to have a tough time in normal small unit engagements.

The flexibility of the shotgun's ammo package is only effective IF the operator can change ammo types with a minimum of effort. This is why the Army dropped the CAWS (Close Assault Weapons System) program. The applicants could produced a large volume of fire at short range but really didn't provide the "order of magnitude" increase in firepower the US sought.
The Army found magazine fed shotguns too cumbersome to use in CQB and too slow to swap ammo for flexible use.

The "Security" and "Military" shotguns share some common traits that "Operators" consider necessary for flexible CQB employment:

1. Pump or RELIABLE Semi-Auto operation of the weapon. The military is gravitating to Semi-autos because of the faster rate of fire they possess. I prefer the Bennelli M4, the Beretta 1200/1300 series, the Remington 1100 Tactical, or the Mossberg 930. Police and Security agencies tend to gravitate towards pump actions because of Cost and because some commonly used LE rounds like the Beanbag and TASER will not cycle even the best semi-auto. Some common shotguns are the ubiquitous Mossberg M500 and the more robust M590 (the US issues this to all branches in both 18" 7+1 shot and 20" 8+1 shot models), the Remington 870 (a USMC issue too), the Ithaca Model 37 bottom ejector, and the Winchester 1200/1300. Ironicly, the SPAS-12 was rejected because of reliability issues and the fact that the safety would allow the weapon to discharge while activated.

2. Extended magazine capacity in tube magazines. The military is evenly split between 18" to 20" cylinder bored guns with 7 to 8 round tube mags AND 3" Magnum chambers and identically equipped 14 to 15" guns with 4 to 5 round tube mags. These guns are most common with CQB or entry teams.
The Security and LE community is embracing short barreled "entry guns" due to their maneuverability in tight quarters. Both parties prefer tube magazines for one reason. If you have to transition from buck to slugs rapidly; the operator only has to slide a slug into the tube and "rack the action" (which is what the action release is for) to be ready to engage a target beyond the effective range of buckshot. This holds true for specialty ammo too. Since the default load for most users is 00 Buck; You may find yourself doing this often.

3. Simplicity of action. This is the problem with a large number of the mag fed and bullpup pump guns today. The Keltec KSG has reliability issues and requires a very complex "manual of arms" to top off its tube mags. The shell lift tab is in the way when trying to "top off" a magazine. This forces the operator to move the pump handle slightly forward and invert the gun for reloading with a partial tube mag. The UTAS UTS-15 bullpup pump is completely unreliable.

When I took my tactical shotgun course in the 90's; We were told the following about "The Big Dog on the Street."

Rule #1: Run "cruiser ready" (full mag, empty chamber). No modern shotgun is equipped with a "drop safety" and even a 3 foot drop onto concrete can set one off. It also requires "operator's knowledge" of the controls to find the action release and safety in order bring the gun into action.

Rule #2: Leave the tube mag ONE ROUND DOWN upon bringing the weapon into action. This is to facilitate a change of ammo in an emergency. The last round you insert into your mag WILL BE THE FIRST ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER. You can either fire the weapon to advance a round change OR use the action release to eject the unfired round from the chamber and advance the desired round.

Rule#3: "Feed your puppy!" at every opportunity, you should top off all BUT the last round of the magazine. If you are doing one of those "fancy slap a round through the ejection port reloads; Your already in it deep OR just wrong" (this is the instructor's phase). You should NOT have to be reloading a completely empty gun.

Rule#4: Zero your gun to your Slug of choice. Most shotguns will have a different point of aim between buckshot and slugs. Keep any holdoffs for the buckshot which is a short range area effect load. A gun which shoots to point of aim with both buck and slugs is ALWAYS A KEEPER (unless it's unreliable). GhostRings or Rifle sights are a godsend when shooting slugs at range (although Bead sights can get the job done). A good weaponlight like a Surefire is also of benefit.

Rule#5: Segregate Buck and Slugs. I prefer Slugs to go into vertical belt carriers like the ones Midway reloading sells and put my buck into the horizontal carriers sold there. "Ammunition Management" is the one skill that separates the pros from the "wannabes" in Tactical Shotgunning.

Don't discount the 20 gauge versions of these shotguns either. They will provide on average 74% of the stopping power of a 12 gauge with only 66% of the recoil.

[Apache6]

Webstral:
Like you said, most shotguns can serve either function, and on many shotguns you can easily change barrels to make it more effective for other type of work.

Most 'duck' hunting shotguns have fairly long barrels (26 - 28" not being uncommon) and at least in the US are normally limited to 3 rounds (due to laws), though many shotguns can carry 5 rounds but use a 'limiter' (which is just a plastic piece that takes up space and can be removed during normal cleaning.

"modern" Home defense shotguns will likely have short barrels (18 - 20") and be pump or semi auto having five shot magazines.

Depending on who is likely to be defending against what, you might run into other calibers of weapons. I've given 3 female friends/relatives shotguns chambered for .410 shells, since they were both 'slight and relativey unfamiliar with weapons. In two of the three cases, the weapons were far more likley to be used against racoons but gave them peace of mind. In the third instance a friend had an ex who was 'stalking her.' We got her a pump action .410 shotgun and I made her go to the range five or six times over about a year. (We also got her a concealed carry license and a .38 revolver but thats irrelevent to your question.) It was not what I would chose to go into combat with, but it was the right weapon for her, my 12 ga Rem 870 was too big and kicked too much for her.

Most military tactical shotguns will have shorter barrels (18-20") larger magazines, and may be able to accept bayonets or lights. Shotguns are not used all that often by miltary (I think T2K plays makes them seem more effective at long range then they are)

During T2K era the USMC used remington 870s with 18 or 20 inch barrels and bayonet lugs, equipped with magazine extenders that let you carry 8 rounds (7 in tube, 1 in chamber IIRC). Some but not all of them had a collapsable stock. They were not a particularly common weapons, being used primarily for 'less lethal' situations. Combat Engineers and Recon Marines often had them for urban breaching operations (i.e. blowing either the locks or the hinges off of doors). These ones were more likely to have the collapsable stock as they were a mission specific 'secondary' weapon.

[swaghauler]

Shotguns in Twilight are entirely too powerful when compared to real life shotguns (especially when using buckshot). I have made some changes to the rules which I will list here. Use them or ignore them as you choose:

Range of Shotguns:

The Range Bands for Shotguns ADD the base range bands instead of DOUBLING the base range band. A shotgun which has a base (Short) range of 20 meters with a slug will have a 40 meter Medium Range, a 60 meter Long Range and an 80 meter Extreme Range with that slug.
The Exception to this rule is if the shotgun is using a Rifled Barrel. Rifled Slugs fired from a Rifled Barrel double their Base Range Bands just like all of the other weapons in the basic Twilight2000 rules. "Added Range bands" are indicated by brackets like this, [20m], to differentiate them from doubled range bands.

Ghost Ring or Rifle Sights: These add 5 meters to the Base (Short) Range of Slugs and Sabots (both smoothbore & Rifled) and 2 meters to any Buckshot or Flechettes.

Chokes: I only use three chokes in my game. They are;
Cylinder Bore: This is the "base" choke for all shotguns in the game.
Modified Cylinder Choke: This choke adds 1 meter to the shotgun's Short/Base range.
Full Choke: This choke adds 2 meters to the Short/Base Range of the shotgun. Full chokes also make it unsafe to fire slugs through the gun (due to increased pressures from the choke). This choke is unpopular for Military and LE applications because of this.

Shotgun Short Ranges Based on Barrel Length:

For ease of game play; The Short Range of any gauge of shotgun is based on barrel length. The gauge of a shotgun only affects the number of pellets or size of the slug that shotgun shoots. Consult the list below to determine your Base/Short Range and then add any "Range Bonuses" to this Short Range. While this really "oversimplifies" real world shotguns; It is easy to apply in game.

Shotgun BUCKSHOT/SLUG Range By Barrel Length Chart:
8" Barrel or Less: 5 meters/8 meters
9" to 12" Barrel: 6 meters/14 meters
13" to 15" Barrel: 7 meters/18 meters
16" to 18" Barrel: 8 meters/20 meters
19" to 21" Barrel: 9 meters/22 meters
22" to 24" Barrel: 10 meters/24 meters
25" to 27" Barrel: 11 meters/27 meters
28" to 30" Barrel: 12 meters/30 meters

Remember that Rifled Slug barrels are treated like normal rifle barrels.
Add 1 meters to this base range, and 1 to Recoil for a 3" Magnum Shell
Add 2 meters to this base range and 2 to Recoil for a 3 1/2" Magnum Shell

Buckshot in the Game:

Buckshot in the real world expands at a rate of one INCH per YARD (or meter) of travel. Because of this, most buckshot will hit only a single location at ranges out to 10 meters (a 10" spread of the shot). Shorter barrels tend to "open up" the pattern of the buckshot they fire sooner (although this isn't always the case). This is why range is the primary tool I use for demonstrating the difference between barrel lengths. To simulate this behavior; in game Buckshot behaves as follows:
At Short Range: Buckshot is considered a single shot for the listed damage to ONE location.
At Medium Range: Buckshot is rolled like a 9 shot burst from a rifle. Each hit causes 1 Die of damage. *As an optional reality rule you can roll the first hit normally and then roll each additional hit location by rolling either 1D6 for an initial upper body hit or 1D6+4 for an initial lower body hit depending on whether the FIRST hit was upper or lower body oriented. This would represent the "pattern" being either high or low on the target's body. This rule would be implemented at the Gm's discretion.
At Long Range: The Buckshot would now be rolled as a 5 round burst. and the shooter would have a +1 bonus to hit due to the shot spread. Each hit does 1D6 damage.
At Extreme Range: The Buckshot would now be a 3 round burst with a +2 to hit bonus due to shot spread. Damage would be 1D6 per round that hits
Bird Shot:
Bird shot has a very bad reputation for poor penetration in human tissue. Most bird shot won't penetrate 4" of Ballistic Gel. The FBI states that 12" of penetration in Ballistic Gel is needed to reach the vital organs of a human being. That being said; If all you have is Bird shot, then Bird shot IS what you will use. This poor effect can be modeled in game by treating Bird Shot
as Buckshot; BUT each hit does only ONE POINT OF DAMAGE (not one die) to the target. Birdshot would give bonuses of +1 at Medium Range, +2 at Long Range, and +3 at Extreme Range due to the number and density of pellets in the load.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I have a tangential question: when the law enforcement types of the world started the switch away from the 9mm, why was the switch made to .40 caliber instead of the M1911? Time and time again I read that people in the know think the M1911 is the best all-around handgun available. Is there a rationale beyond politics and magazine capacity?

A little with trying to stay out the politics part too much. The FBI was involved in a shootout that did not go well for them. They were looking and found a pair of bank robbers, who they then got in a shootout with. In the about five minute shootout about 150 rounds were fired. In the end both robbers were killed and two agents. The agents were packing a combination of .357 Mags (shooting .38+P), some 9mm, and a pair of shotguns (with buckshot). The robbers one used a shotgun but he was taken out early so not really in the fight. The other used a Mini-14 rifle and he fired about 40 rounds. In the post investigation it was found that of the about 100 rounds fire by the agents they did not have the take down needed. This is were the FBI came up with there testing that is used today, they also made the 10mm as the "perfect" round. However it had to much recoil for most of their agents, was too large for there smaller stature agents. Smith and Wesson took the 10mm and made the .40 S&W. This started the trend in law enforcement to switch over to the .40. here is a link to the wickipedia page about the shootout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

As for the M1911 this was almost all politics, when law enforcement started switching over from the revolver they wanted to stick with the same basic size round (the .38 special and 9mm are basically the same). Some interesting things that I have read from actual shootings, those who have low capacity magazines ran out in the middle of gunfights less then those who had large capacity, as they keep better track of how many rounds they had.

[ArmySGT.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lprGoEpDXJQ

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Swaghauler, your answers to questions about shotguns have been great, very informative.
I'd like to add something about the SPAS-12 from personal experience - it's 0.5kg to 1kg (1.1lbs to 2.2lbs) heavier compared to all the other semi-auto shotguns I've ever seen and that extra weight feels like it's all sitting on your off hand.
For all the "cool" it might have for being Arnie's shotgun in The Terminator, it handles "big & heavy" -- A bit like Arnie I suppose haha

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I have an open-ended question for this crew. What would distinguish a shotgun design intended for self-defense or hunting from military applications? I understand that some shotguns can serve in all three roles. More so than with other firearms, a shotgun’s roles are like a Venn diagram. However certain characteristics, like automatic fire, probably distinguish shotguns optimized for combat from shotguns for self-defense or hunting. I’m curious what this crew thinks.

If Mossbergs survived decades with USMC units, it should work nicely, unlike the Mod 870, one must remove the mag tube to take out the hunting block that limits a sporting shotgun to 3+1 configuration or to convert it to trench or riot version.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by kato13

I know I got in trouble for it before but I still feel that more women in law enforcement necessitated the move away from higher calibers due to even those with athletic training not having sufficient grip strength.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...9&postcount=10

My first MP unit has M10 .38spl revolvers, M1911A1s, and M16A1s in 1991.

Several females and a few males qualified on M10s because the M1911A1s grips were to large. The 70 round MP quals has stages with one handed firing.

[stormlion1]

When I was a SP in the Air Force in the mid-90's it was primarily M-16A1's and later A2's with the dog handlers getting CAR-15's and everyone having an assigned M9. The Armory had other weapons available but unless you worked in there you never saw them. I know we had a few AK's, some Shotguns, and a locker full of M1911's that no one ever shot.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

When I was a SP in the Air Force in the mid-90's it was primarily M-16A1's and later A2's with the dog handlers getting CAR-15's and everyone having an assigned M9. The Armory had other weapons available but unless you worked in there you never saw them. I know we had a few AK's, some Shotguns, and a locker full of M1911's that no one ever shot.

Your post reminded me of something I had completely forgotten. White Sands Missile Range, NM for whatever reason had a small armory of national match weapons run by post headquarters. The best shooters from the three active duty units would be tried out on some of these in the hopes that a post competitive team could be formed. I know it had M21s, M1Cs, M1 Rifles, M1911A1s (.45acp and .38super), and M10 .38s along with spotting scopes, rifle scopes, and all other competition gear. That was in the early 90's.

[Schone23666]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

When I was a SP in the Air Force in the mid-90's it was primarily M-16A1's and later A2's with the dog handlers getting CAR-15's and everyone having an assigned M9. The Armory had other weapons available but unless you worked in there you never saw them. I know we had a few AK's, some Shotguns, and a locker full of M1911's that no one ever shot.

And to think I started this thread as a sarcastic rebuttal to moronic conspiracy theories. I love this forum!

I'm curious, what were they doing with AK's in the SP armory? Were they for OPFOR exercises?

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Schone23666

And to think I started this thread as a sarcastic rebuttal to moronic conspiracy theories. I love this forum!

I'm curious, what were they doing with AK's in the SP armory? Were they for OPFOR exercises?

I remember most of those when I was waiting to check out my privately owned pistols, no AK's or 1911's except my own. Alsoremember seeing the M249's in plastic sitting on the bench.