Possible Module Followups

[The Dark]

America in 2300 is a significant power, but not a superpower. 2300AD notes that France was "the only global power" by the time of the Saudi War (2010-2013), and was the global superpower from 2060 to 2150. America remained divided until 2045, and was unwilling to fight Mexico in 2103 when California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Baja started the Mexican Civil War, despite wanting to reclaim their original borders. America's noted as being late to return to space ("American-Australian Cooperation"), and it's noted that its domination of the North American continent is "diminished" by the rising power of Canada and Mexico. None of that sounds like America being a superpower in 2300, but rather a strong second-tier player, such as the UK or France in the 1980s - someone you don't particularly want to go out of your way to piss off, but also not an 800-pound gorilla in international relations. Even if one looks at extrasolar colonies, they have 8. France has 16, Germany has 7, Manchuria has 14, Australia and Britain both have 5, Canada and Australia each have 4, even Texas has 3.

[Olefin]

The US is definitely a major power in 2300AD - not a superpower but still a major one. And one thing I definitely dont agree with is them letting Mexico keep a big piece of Arizona and New Mexico and California - for one big reason that the US controls the source of water for the areas they hold in all three states - would have been very easy to drive out Mexico - just turn off the taps.

So that part of the canon I dont see as realistic - Texas going independent - yes that I could agree with even without a Mexican invasion.

However the US being anything like that with what is described in HW - that's not going to happen.

[Olefin]

And have the start of something new I am already several pages into - little taste of the beginning

“Looking back at things, it’s hard to believe with how hopeless things were in April of 2001 that just a few months later the situation could turn around so dramatically. Starvation, disease, Mexican troops or marauders running half the state, the Army falling apart – a litany of disasters on and on. And out of nowhere the three M’s came to save us – a Millionaire, a Miracle and a Movie Star. Sounds like a bad movie that Hollywood used to write before the Soviets nuked LA but this time it was all for real.”

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by The Dark

America in 2300 is a significant power, but not a superpower. 2300AD notes that France was "the only global power" by the time of the Saudi War (2010-2013), and was the global superpower from 2060 to 2150. America remained divided until 2045, and was unwilling to fight Mexico in 2103 when California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Baja started the Mexican Civil War, despite wanting to reclaim their original borders. America's noted as being late to return to space ("American-Australian Cooperation"), and it's noted that its domination of the North American continent is "diminished" by the rising power of Canada and Mexico. None of that sounds like America being a superpower in 2300, but rather a strong second-tier player, such as the UK or France in the 1980s - someone you don't particularly want to go out of your way to piss off, but also not an 800-pound gorilla in international relations. Even if one looks at extrasolar colonies, they have 8. France has 16, Germany has 7, Manchuria has 14, Australia and Britain both have 5, Canada and Australia each have 4, even Texas has 3.

Ding, Ding, Ding. Winner, Winner! Chicken Dinner!

Canon as established by the OWNERS of the CANON material.

Thank you, The Dark.

[cawest]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And have the start of something new I am already several pages into - little taste of the beginning

“Looking back at things, it’s hard to believe with how hopeless things were in April of 2001 that just a few months later the situation could turn around so dramatically. Starvation, disease, Mexican troops or marauders running half the state, the Army falling apart – a litany of disasters on and on. And out of nowhere the three M’s came to save us – a Millionaire, a Miracle and a Movie Star. Sounds like a bad movie that Hollywood used to write before the Soviets nuked LA but this time it was all for real.”

Oh i can not wait for more!!!!!

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Ding, Ding, Ding. Winner, Winner! Chicken Dinner!

Canon as established by the OWNERS of the CANON material.

Thank you, The Dark.

Yes which is why I am saying HW doesnt agree with that canon - because it so completely kills the US off that there is no way they even get that big in 300 years so as to have extrasolar colonies - not when you are lucky if 5% of the population is still alive by the end of 2001

thus the start of possibly addressing some of those discrepancies in new CANON material to expand on the old CANON (Marc does OWN the CANON after all) is so exciting - and that is what I am working on

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by The Dark

America in 2300 is a significant power, but not a superpower. 2300AD notes that France was "the only global power" by the time of the Saudi War (2010-2013), and was the global superpower from 2060 to 2150. America remained divided until 2045, and was unwilling to fight Mexico in 2103 when California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Baja started the Mexican Civil War, despite wanting to reclaim their original borders. America's noted as being late to return to space ("American-Australian Cooperation"), and it's noted that its domination of the North American continent is "diminished" by the rising power of Canada and Mexico. None of that sounds like America being a superpower in 2300, but rather a strong second-tier player, such as the UK or France in the 1980s - someone you don't particularly want to go out of your way to piss off, but also not an 800-pound gorilla in international relations. Even if one looks at extrasolar colonies, they have 8. France has 16, Germany has 7, Manchuria has 14, Australia and Britain both have 5, Canada and Australia each have 4, even Texas has 3.

FYI the 2045 date was changed to 2020 as to when CivGov and MilGov came back together - again multiple releases of the 2300AD game

and if you look at the Kafer War the American ships had a big part in it - and its stated that the US could take back the Southwest if it wanted to but not in the cards with the Kafer War going on

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by Olefin

FYI the 2045 date was changed to 2020 as to when CivGov and MilGov came back together - again multiple releases of the 2300AD game

and if you look at the Kafer War the American ships had a big part in it - and its stated that the US could take back the Southwest if it wanted to but not in the cards with the Kafer War going on

2045 is the number in the last boxed set. CivGov and MilGov "settled their differences" to fight New America in 2020 per the North America section, but the history explicitly states they formed a single nation in 2045. It's possible Mongoose retconned that further, but I haven't read that book closely enough to know.

The US is definitely a major power in 2300AD - not a superpower but still a major one. And one thing I definitely dont agree with is them letting Mexico keep a big piece of Arizona and New Mexico and California - for one big reason that the US controls the source of water for the areas they hold in all three states - would have been very easy to drive out Mexico - just turn off the taps.

So that part of the canon I dont see as realistic - Texas going independent - yes that I could agree with even without a Mexican invasion.

So let me see if I have this right:
1. The T2K canon needs to be changed because allegedly America can't grow enough in 300 years (more time than has passed since the American Revolution) to match 2300AD canon.
2. The 2300AD canon needs to be changed because it isn't sufficiently pro-America.
Anything that "fixes" scenario #2 will make scenario #1 occur by requiring the post-Twilight War United States to be stronger so as to end up with a stronger America, so by insisting on the 2300AD canon being wrong, you end up creating the T2K canon issue that's claimed to be endemic to that setting alone. While there are minor issues with the canon, the claim that the devastation in the United States is excessive is caused by a change to 2300AD canon that would require rewriting that entire setting.

[Olefin]

Actually I never said to change the 2300AD canon because its not pro-American enough - as I said the US would never have let Mexico keep the American Southwest - that's common sense pure and simple - no way does the US let Mexico keep those areas - especially since the water that keeps Southern California and Phoenix alive comes from areas under American control. Cut that off and you can kiss those areas goodbye.

I dont support HW because basically there is no way that CivGov survives the drought let alone joins with MilGov to defeat New America as its written. The loss in population is so large from the drought and happens so quickly that the country would have never recovered in any conceivable fashion that actually has the US able to establish multiple space colonies and spread out as far as it has into the stars.

But I didnt start this thread to have an argument/discussion about HW and I doubt anything I say will convince the hardcore HW defenders - thanks everyone for the ideas for possibly module followups - hope you guys enjoy the new canon material I am working on.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually I never said to change the 2300AD canon because its not pro-American enough - as I said the US would never have let Mexico keep the American Southwest - that's common sense pure and simple - no way does the US let Mexico keep those areas - especially since the water that keeps Southern California and Phoenix alive comes from areas under American control. Cut that off and you can kiss those areas goodbye.

Probably isn't worth the time and effort. It isn't lily white and pure Anglo Saxon protestants with good English or German names. It is near complete Roman Catholic Latinos from Mexico all the way to Argentina. Millions upon millions of them that flooded north to get out of their home countries. It would be another war all over again. Any attempt to cut off the water starts another war again. A war the U.S. would fight, but cannot really afford too.

Simple answers really are the best. The population of Latinos in Arizona, New Mexico, and California post T2K is greater than the population of the surrounding border states.

Originally Posted by Olefin

I dont support HW because basically there is no way that CivGov survives the drought let alone joins with MilGov to defeat New America as its written. The loss in population is so large from the drought and happens so quickly that the country would have never recovered in any conceivable fashion that actually has the US able to establish multiple space colonies and spread out as far as it has into the stars.

Can you establish this with a quote from the soure material? As was pointed out.... 2300 is three hundred years post T2K and longer than the USA was established prior. An evolution that went from 10 million with windmills and water mills to 300 million with nulear power.

Originally Posted by Olefin

But I didnt start this thread to have an argument/discussion about HW and I doubt anything I say will convince the hardcore HW defenders - thanks everyone for the ideas for possibly module followups - hope you guys enjoy the new canon material I am working on.

It is something your going to have to address if your think you material will sell. These are the people that would be purchasing the book. If you can't make a strong case for it now; how will you after sinking time and money into a product?

[Olefin]

Have sold 200 so far so I would say my writing and approach has definitely appealed to a lot of people.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Have sold 200 so far so I would say my writing and approach has definitely appealed to a lot of people.

This isn't about Kenya.
1. Little or no material written about the region.
2. No published modules for the region.
3. No later released like 2300 to contradict.

The subject is Howling Wilderness and your attempt to enlist (for free) persons to supply material for a rewrite to the V1 and V2 timelines of T2k and rewrite the timeline of 2300 AD.

Side stepping isn't getting it done. Support your argument with sources if you can.

The U.S. (in 2300 AD) is a second tier power, like modern day France or India. Not able to project power really outside their region and still not someone your going to fight or beat easily either.

The U.S. in 2300 AD is not a super power. So your going to have to convince the fan base why it is necessary to rewrite the history of two games.

I don't really think you have made a single convincing argument yet.

[Olefin]

US in 2300 AD is a major power - not a super power - and never said they were a super power. And they can project power outside their region or they wouldnt have colonies or a space fleet or been a crucial part of the Kafer War.

Also much of the fan base has a lot of objections to HW and the drought - which can be addressed very easily without having to make the US a super power again.

The fallacy of many of the canon defenders is that unless you screw the US totally up they win the war and become a super power again.

That is incorrect - and 2300AD already addresses that and no need to change it all. The US from its inception until the Spanish American War really didnt stick its nose into other people's business outside of the Western Hemisphere. It was a regional power - not a super power and not a world power. It really wasnt until WWII that it became a true super power.

The Twilight War brings that to culmination and the US afterward rejects interfering in the world as a whole - it goes back to being a regional power as it was for most of its existence. Thus it allows the French to take the reins and is content to sit back and concentrate on itself and its own area.

And taking back the Southwest from Mexico doesnt change that in any way - still a regional power, still a major power but only regional and not super power. And Mexico still has its expansion to the South and into the Caribbean as seen in the canon.

So a few minor changes to HW make for a much more playable NA game where its not Aftermath, its not Fallout, its not Gamma World with human beings rare and far between - instead its the US of the first few NA modules that actually showed a very damaged country trying to recover - which is why it gave up hundreds of armored vehicles, artillery pieces, planes, etc.. in Europe to bring those men home to do so.

As for wasting my time and money - I am not wasting any money writing and what I do I do because I love it and its a labor of love - and also because it gives people new material for a game that I love.

And FYI - Africa is in 2300AD - and if you look at what I did in Kenya I basically set up the creation of Azania with the expansion of South Africa and thus presaged the canon for that area. And also the French expansion into Africa as well mentioned in the RDF and in 2300AD

As for convincing argument - I am not here to convince those who wont be convinced - I tried that several years ago and let myself get talked out of contacting the owner of the canon to see if he was interested in new material because I had several members state that what I was doing was a fool's errand. And thus I abandoned the effort as I couldn't convince others about the validity of the idea until I decided last year on my own to do it - and now we have new material.

Thus I will write and if Marc publishes it those who enjoy it will buy it and support it and those who wont will not - and that's ok - as was said in literally every module published originally in the 80's and 90's the material published was up to the GM if he wanted to use it or change it - and they will do so again

Oh and I dont intend to enlist others in what I am doing - I am encouraging others to write new canon material of their own and get it published - frankly I would love to see a tidal wave of new canon material not only revitalize the game but expand it and make it as popular as it ever was before. If that happens I will be totally happy even if what they write and publish goes against any possible ideas I have.

If not and I turn out to be the only writer of new canon material then so be it - but based on what Raellus posted here I am betting I am wrong.

[Raellus]

Something that might be cool is a write-up of units that never were but that probably should have been. For example, the U.S. 13th Airborne Division. It was formed during WWII but never saw action. It was dissolved shortly thereafter.

It stands to reason that it was resurrected during WWIII. If so, where did it go? What did it do? What was it's TOE? How was it different than similar pre-war units... So-on-and-so-forth. Just in the United States Army, there are probably quite a few WWII-era divisions (especially infantry divisions) that, for whatever reasons, were not included in T2K canon. A sourcebook devoted to them would be neat. That said, it would have to be done really well in order not to unbalance canon.

[Olefin]

You can see one aspect of this in the East Africa Sourcebook

I.e. the attempt to reactivate the 106th Infantry Division - they only got the 422nd fully formed and trained in time but the rest of the division never got fully formed - basically just the HQ and the 422nd.

The 1st Battalion got sent to Kenya

The 422nd Infantry Regiment was formed in early 1997 as part of a plan to reactivate the 106th Infantry Division. However the nuclear attacks on the US ended those plans, with only the 422nd Regiment fully formed and trained.

[Raellus]

Nice. And I'd like to see more of that sort of thing. Why didn't the architects of the T2K U.S. military include the 29th ID of D-Day fame (the US Army Vehicle book includes reference to a 116th ACR but it doesn't clarify its pedigree) or the 79th ID, or the 83rd ID, or the 4th MarDiv? Perhaps it was easier to make up units out of whole cloth than to research the lineage of RL ones. What we can sometimes forget is that the creators of the original T2K material didn't have easy access to the digital mountains of information that we do today.

[Rainbow Six]

Missing formations isn't a uniquely American challenge when it comes to the original material. There's no mention anywhere in any published material of the West German Territorial Heer (12 Brigades and a larger number of separate Regiments) or the British Territorial Army (off the top of my head around 40 Infantry Battalions, two thirds of which would have formed the 2nd (UK) Infantry Division, the real life version of which bears no resemblance to its T2K equivalent).

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Missing formations isn't a uniquely American challenge when it comes to the original material. There's no mention anywhere in any published material of the West German Territorial Heer (12 Brigades and a larger number of separate Regiments) or the British Territorial Army (off the top of my head around 40 Infantry Battalions, two thirds of which would have formed the 2nd (UK) Infantry Division, the real life version of which bears no resemblance to its T2K equivalent).

Absolutely. I didn't feel qualified to mention this- my knowledge base has its limits- so I am pleased that you did.

[Olefin]

They did have some missing formations - i.e. the 4th, 5th and 6th Marines are mentioned - but very cavalierly exposed to Soviet naval forces during deployment - and their PacFlt wasnt anything as strong as their Atlantic one

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

They did have some missing formations - i.e. the 4th, 5th and 6th Marines are mentioned - but very cavalierly exposed to Soviet naval forces during deployment - and their PacFlt wasnt anything as strong as their Atlantic one

Where are they mentioned?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Where are they mentioned?

US Army Guide. All Three were sent to Korea so very few details.

That might be the next ripest fruit for a source-book.

One of the 4th Battalions (2-24th) was 2 blocks from my high-school and I spent some time there so I felt connected to them. Kinda funny, it was also about a half mile from our Korea town. So maybe they picked up a few phrases before they shipped out.

[Olefin]

Raellus - do you have the US Army Guide - if not I can put up a quick description after I get home - and I agree with Kato - Korea definitely needs a sourcebook

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by kato13

US Army Guide. All Three were sent to Korea so very few details.

OK, I found them. I was just skimming and 3rd MarDiv was the last division listed before it seemed to switch to regiments. I didn't notice that those regiments were still part of active divisions.

Korea is indeed fertile ground for a T2K Sourcebook.

[cawest]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Raellus - do you have the US Army Guide - if not I can put up a quick description after I get home - and I agree with Kato - Korea definitely needs a sourcebook

don't forget all of those island north of Soul, and the ones down south. those are each ripe to be little kingdoms all by themselves.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

OK, I found them. I was just skimming and 3rd MarDiv was the last division listed before it seemed to switch to regiments. I didn't notice that those regiments were still part of active divisions.

Korea is indeed fertile ground for a T2K Sourcebook.

It switched to regiments due to losses in the three divisions who seemed to take a hell of a lot of casualties getting over to Korea - which is something I find highly curious due to that fact that they arrived after the Soviet fleet should have been destroyed - and you would figure the Navy would do everything they could to protect the Marines - they belong to the Navy after all

One thing that doesnt make sense is how the Soviets kept their navy going in the Pacific as late as they did - i.e. look at Satellite Down - they still have a group of six destroyers going very late in the game - ones that somehow have the fuel to operate off the coast of Mexico (which I would think they got from Mexico and opens up another interesting idea on possible additional Soviet units in Mexico - i .e. did the Soviets not only help Mexico with Division Cuba but also with Pacific Fleet units sent there to operate out of Mexican ports) - and even the one very old DD that the Virginia sinks after its grounded for good at Haven

[cawest]

i was thinking this might fit better in you Africa section but not for sure.

I was reading a jane's post about the Argentine Army TAM's and the long over due to be updated to the TAM2C.

Argentina was not hit that bad in the war (i think) they built these tanks and have the production lines still. So you have countries that are losing tanks faster than they can be replaced.

Why not buy a unit full, the locals would replace the lost older TAMS with new built TAM2Cs.

now what it they were to trade them to the middle east or Africa? what would they want them.... oil and raw ores like uranium?

what do you all think?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by cawest

Argentina was not hit that bad in the war (i think) they built these tanks and have the production lines still.

I think it's unlikely. Argentina fought a War with Brazil that ended up with both countries nuking each other. From the BYB V2.2, pg 241

Argentina itself withdrew [from the Falkland Islands] when war broke out with Brazil in 1998, and a smallscale exchange of low-yield nuclear weapons between the two countries completed their slide into chaos. Central government in both countries has broken down.

[Olefin]

it also comes down to if you want to adjust the timeline - V1 has both nations as intact after the war - V2.2 has them fighting a nuclear war - but neither nation ever developed nukes - so it may be a question of ignoring V2.2 and going with the V1 timeline - or making adjustments per se

And frankly that is another part of the timeline that makes no sense - if Argentina is going to war with anyone its Chile - they had major issues with Chile and came close to war several times in the last few decades - one reason Chile bought upgraded M109's from BAE when I was there was to offset improvements in the Argentine Army

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

it also comes down to if you want to adjust the timeline - V1 has both nations as intact after the war

Does it? Can you point me in the direction of where that's stated?