Coolest Camo

[unkated]

Remember, you asked fro coolest, not what we thought was the most effective...

Polish Black Morro; I'll take a medium weight jacket of that any time...

Polish Puma isn't bad either, but it would be better on a leather jacket... (IMHO).

US 1970s Tiger Stripe patters, too.

(And I am very happy that the link to the Campopedia was repeated.)

Uncle Ted

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Coolest? My vote would be the Vietnam-Era Tiger pattern. Not the best pattern, but it does look cool.

..."

Kryptek and Multicam are cool, too, as Tyg and Raellus mentioned. Problem: Not available in the original or even the 2.n timeline.

My choice was not mentioned in the poll. It would be the Italian M1929 telo mimetico. First version fielded in 1929, still in use with certain units in the early 90ies.

Does it work? Hm, not shure. It's been in the field for such a long time, it has to have something. And: You can see a coverall in this scheme in the beginning scenes in the first (pilot-) show of Firefly. If it is still around 500 years in the future, it certainly has to be cool

[StainlessSteelCynic]

So I'm not unhappy to be revisiting this thread and as an Aussie I'm going to wave the flag for the first piece of camo gear officially issued to Australian forces in the Cold War era - the Smock, Tropical.
Aside from using the same material on the hootchie holder **, there were no other items of camo clothing officially issued to Australian forces (the SASR were allowed to get cam but they're special so I'm not including them).

** For those of you not familiar with US & Australian military slang, the word Hootchie refers to a groundsheet that can be used as a single person tent or when clipped to another such groundsheet can form a larger tent. Hootchie is I believe, derived from the American term "Hootch" AKA "Hooch" meaning a hut or simple/crude dwelling and used during the Vietnam War to describe the places soldiers in the field had to live in (the term may have even been used by US troops in the Korean War but I'm unsure of that).
So to get to the point, the Hootchie Holder is just a simple bag that clips onto your web gear to carry your groundsheet.

You can see an example of the pattern here, courtesy of Camopedia http://camopedia.org/index.php?title=Australia



HOWEVER...
Despite what Camopedia says, this rain smock was never designated the "psychological smock", it was the "Smock, Tropical". But Aussies troops being like their counterparts in allied armies, soon came up with a different name for it based on the fact that it was the only item of issued clothing that was camouflaged but it wasn't for general use as it was only for tropical regions.
They mockingly nicknamed it the "Smock, Psychological" because they figured the cam pattern wasn't actually useful unless you were in jungle terrain, anywhere else in Australia it didn't really do anything to hide you, so any perceived benefit of wearing it was all in your head, i.e. psychological.

There were no other items of clothing officially issued in a cam pattern but I am not 100% certain that a rainproof cap in the same cam pattern was not issued. I've never seen one or even photos of one and I don't recall anyone ever talking about them. If there were some floating about, they may have actually been soldier made rather than official issue.
A number of soldiers did modify the tropical smock into other garments - one corporal I knew had a rifle bag made out of the material and I also personally saw a tropical smock that had been cut down and tailored to look more like the US BDU smock.

I vaguely recall in another life that I emailed Camopedia to update the info about the Smock, Tropical but I could be confusing it with another site, it was about 7 or 8 years ago or so.
But anyway, while I don't contend that the Australia tropical smock camo was particularly "cool", it's a nearly forgotten piece of Aussie military gear and an example of Aussie military humour so I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Raellus]

It's not used very much these days, but back in the 1990's, here in the States, "hoochie" was a commonly-used slang term for a woman of loose morals.

Also, saw this a couple of weeks ago. Old meets new. It's a cool-looking combo, IMHO.

http://soldiersystems.net/2019/09/02...ning-exercise/

-

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Aside from using the same material on the hootchie holder **, there were no other items of camo clothing officially issued to Australian forces (the SASR were allowed to get cam but they're special so I'm not including them).

Hmm, I was issued one of those in 91. Never bothered actually using it though.
There's also at least one other item using that pattern - a two litre water bladder carrier which I still have!
Pattern's a bit worn, but I don't think that actually detracts from it's effectiveness (if any). Has a an attached shoulder strap as well (which I've taped up out of the way) as well as a belt loop. Printed on the inside is the year of manufacture (1972), a serial number and manufacturer (Cantas Pty Ltd). Damn thing's as old as I am, if not older by a few months!

Attachment 4366 Attachment 4367

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Ha! I remember the collapsible water bladder now that you mention it! The ones we had in my last unit were straight olive drab but seeing those photos sparks some dim memory in the decaying corners of my mind!
Come to think of it, half the hootchie carriers I saw were olive drab as well.
The material used for those hootchie carriers was utter crap and I'm pretty sure most infantry guys didn't bother carrying it, just one more item of dead weight.

But yeah, as for camo clothing, Australian troops basically had sweet FA until the DPCU was issued and it's ironic that before then, the only items of equipment that did get any sort of cam where small bits of kit that were not common use items.


But as for Cold War era cam uniforms, there's quite a few patterns I like but in terms of coolest, for me I'd choose the 1970s South African Police camo, examples of which can be found in it's various incarnations on Camopedia, here, the last quarter of the page.
http://www.camopedia.org/index.php?title=South_Africa

Generally, it looked like this (again, courtesy of Camopedia)


or this

[wolffhound79]

marine corp desert Marpat

[Adm.Lee]

Huh, never noticed this poll before. USMC digicam was , but I think I have to go with Vietnam-era tiger stripes. In 1985, about, I was super-proud of myself for being able to paint one of my metal figures that way.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well there's nothing stopping you from liking any of the newer cam patterns because the poll is specifically about the "coolest" cam uniforms available during the Twilight War time period (so some of the answers here are out of context of the poll).
Personally, I really like the 1990s South African army cam pattern and the 1990s Polish urban cam pattern as used by their national police as well as the woodlands and urban patterns used by the Polish internal security agency but of all those even though they're all from the 1990s, only the South African pattern is likely to have been available during the Twilight War.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by chico20854

I managed to pick up a couple complete sets of the Danish and Polish camos (including in Goretex) and have been spotted pimping both around town from time to time!

I really like both. Like, enough to change my poll answer.

[wolffhound79]

My brother and I were joking about the 90s and the fashion. I found an old loot table I made for NY. One of the popular items I had was sports cloths. If anyone remembers the parachute pants in NFL team colors in a camo tiger stripe pattern. LOL What were they thinking then lol.

[Legbreaker]

[Raellus]

I probably included the wrong Polish camo in the poll. "Pantera" was adopted in 1993, after the fall of the Communist Bloc and six years before Poland joined NATO. It may or may not have existed in the T2kU, depending on the timeline and personal preference. I should have included wz89 "Puma" (aka Żaba or "frog") pattern instead. It was adopted about a year before the fall of the Berlin Wall. If the Cold War hadn't ended, it probably wouldn't have been replaced as quickly as it was IRL.

Anyway, I can't decide whether "Puma" looks cool or not. These photos don't help (one makes it look pretty badass, the other kind of lame- I'll let you decide which). What do you think about Puma? Cool or not?

[ToughOmbres]

Originally Posted by Raellus

IIRC, the U.S. produced a night-time desert camo suit overlaid with a grid pattern. I can't remember the name for this uni. Supposedly, the grid pattern made the suit harder to pick out by NODs. Haven't seen the suits since the late '80s and early '90s so...

Does this mean they didn't work as advertised? Or what?

I remember those very well but they did not appear often and disappeared relatively quickly-I got the impression it wasn't Supply/QM "Keep the Best and issue the rest" either.

[ToughOmbres]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I really like both. Like, enough to change my poll answer.

The Danish pattern is/was extremely cool and applicable especially for their area of operations.

[ToughOmbres]

By the time of the Twilight War had the Flecktarn completely been fielded in the Bundeswehr? I always imagined the Territorial Heer having a mix of camo until supplies ran out and remaining troops using their old moleskin grey/gray uniforms that were so ubiquitous well into the late 1980's. What say the group?

[Higgipedia]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbres

By the time of the Twilight War had the Flecktarn completely been fielded in the Bundeswehr? I always imagined the Territorial Heer having a mix of camo until supplies ran out and remaining troops using their old moleskin grey/gray uniforms that were so ubiquitous well into the late 1980's. What say the group?

It would be YEARS for the Army to catch up Desert Camouflage Uniform pattern accessories (body armor, MOPP suits, etc) with the DCUs worn in Iraq/Afghanistan. I deployed twice with woodland body armor and didn't get my first desert-friendly set until 2005, and that was probably because I was deployed with JSOC. Then it was a couple years of DCU accessories matched with the ACU grey digital pattern and by the time the ACU accessories caught up, they had switched to the Multicams. And that was just in the nine years I was in.

My understanding is that Flecktarn was in use from the late 80s on in a couple of different militaries. I think it'd be pretty reasonable for any units extant at the start of the war to be all uniform with the... uniforms. Mid-to-late war replacements would maybe not have as much, and by 2000, I doubt very many soldiers are 100% matching.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbres

By the time of the Twilight War had the Flecktarn completely been fielded in the Bundeswehr? I always imagined the Territorial Heer having a mix of camo until supplies ran out and remaining troops using their old moleskin grey/gray uniforms that were so ubiquitous well into the late 1980's. What say the group?

That's a good question. The issue is even further complicated if one uses the v1.0 timeline. The Bundeswehr would be absorbing a bunch of former DDR troops (whilst other East German military forces will be fighting against the West Germans/NATO). That means that the Bundeswehr is not only going to have to kit out its own, rapidly expanding organic forces (regular army, territorial, mobilized reserves, etc.), it's going to have to kit out tens, maybe hundreds of thousands former DDR troops as well. Will the Bundeswehr try to outfit them in Bundeswehr fatigues, or allow them to continue to wear their DDR uniforms?

In my T2kU, Bundeswehr regulars wear Flecktarn. Reservists and conscripts mostly wear the old, 1957 pattern Olivfarben (Olive green) combat unis. I think the Bundeswehr would try to kit out former DDR troops in either of those uniforms ASAP, but some might have to retain their DDR kit longer until manufacturing supply catches up to demand. That's going to create IFF issues between Unionist and Loyalist German forces. It's also interesting to note that both Polish and Czech forces used their own version of the East German "Raindrop" pattern camo.

The attached photo shows troops from some former Soviet republic kitted out in East German combat fatigues. It's pretty T2k, IMHO.

[Homer]

I think the Belgian Jigsaw pattern just looks cool, and it’s was issued during the period. That said, it seems a little bright for actual hiding use. I’d have to go with a somewhat faded set of US woodlands in which seemed to work a little better after a few FTXs when they had toned down. Outside of Korea and some schools I don’t recall wearing the heavyweight BDUs much, but spent a lot of time in the cotton and 50/50 ripstop hot weather BDUs.

For field wear during most of the year the cotton ones were awesome since they dried very quickly and kept you as cool as possible. On the downside, they wore out quickly (my cuffs had a habit of coming off!), were almost impossible for garrison wear since they wrinkled so easily, and faded (cook whites) quickly. A set I wore during back-to-back NTC rotations faded into a really subdued color that almost worked in the desert but was good for nothing but DX back home. The rip-stops were a little hotter, but lasted longer and were truly four season (in the south).

Favorite uniform ever is a close contest between the Vietnam-era OG107 jungle fatigues worn at JRTC and the rip-stop coffee stain deserts. Both were exceptionally comfortable, and fairly effective as long as you did your part by staying still, etc. FWIW, my OG’s seemed to get more effective the longer I wore them, as they picked up grass and mud stains which broke up the overall green effect. Some guys in the recon plt were allowed to experiment with spray painting their 107s to achieve a disruptive effect as well.

One item I’ve noticed in coverage of the fighting in Ukraine that would likely come into wide use in T2K would be the adoption of some form of tactical recognition sign or symbol, whether it’s a colored arm or helmet band, a contrasting shape, etc. Since uniformity may have long ago fallen by the wayside, and it’s possible to have mixed nationalities, such a system provides a quick and easy method of IFF no matter what “uniform” or kit is being worn. A part of daily security measures could be changing color or location of the sign.

To continue CastleBravo92’s analogy to the late Roman Era, the mobile elements of surviving units (aka “comitatenses”) may be uniformed and equipped in the best possible approximate of their pre-war national issue and appear similar to the group on the v1.0 box cover. Militia or static division base units (aka “limitanei”) may have a substitute standard, captured/civilian kit, or an admixture. Cold weather gear, etc. will likely be a mix of issue, captured, and civilian types. Both military clothing repair (SLCR) and cantonment civilians will be involved in the repair, repurposing, and manufacture of substitute standard clothing and equipment as resources permit. This includes the “harvest” of surplus friendly, civilian, and enemy clothing and kit wherever possible during battlefield cleanup.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbres

By the time of the Twilight War had the Flecktarn completely been fielded in the Bundeswehr? I always imagined the Territorial Heer having a mix of camo until supplies ran out and remaining troops using their old moleskin grey/gray uniforms that were so ubiquitous well into the late 1980's. What say the group?

"Flecktarn B" the camouflage pattern actually ordered by the Bundeswehr was only introduced into active units by 1991. The Danis began using the same pattern, but less colors, from 1978 onwards, since all field tests as well as final choices had been made by 1976 by the Bundeswehr. However, the late 70s and early 80s were full of changes for the Bundeswehr and, while defense spending was enormous, money was still limited.

When the Cold War ended and Flecktarn was finally ordered, it was introduced (IIRC) brigade-wise. Thus, it took some time to roll out the big package of new uniforms to all members of the armed forces. Additionally, the 1990s Bundeswehr Heer (the land component) was a three tier force: First, there were the "Krisenreaktionskräfte" (KRK, crisis intervention forces), which had the best equipment and highest readiness. These forces went to the Balkans and thus got most of the screen time and pictures taken. Then there were the "Hauptverteidigungskräfte" (HVK; main defenseforces), which were active troops, but assigned the defense of Germany proper or NATO allies in a full scale war. These had lower readiness and generally older equipment or received upgrades later. My battalion in 2000 was HVK assigned and we still had G3 rifles well into 2001.

Finally, there was the Territorial Heer, which was much smaller after 1993 than during the Cold War, and only fielded light infantry forces: All heavy units - the tank battalions of the Heimatschutzbrigaden (home defense brigades) or even the tank destroyer platoons of the (dissolved) Heimatschutzregimenter (home defense regiments) had been dissolved already. Still, many new Heimatschutzbataillone (home defense batallions) existed and reservists assigned to them would have received the new uniforms at some point.

All in all, it was probably 1997 or 1998 until everyone got the new gear.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Raellus

The attached photo shows troops from some former Soviet republic kitted out in East German combat fatigues. It's pretty T2k, IMHO.

Good points. Note that these soldiers don't wear GDR-NVA helmets, though, but some other helmet type. I presume, German Bundeswehr leadership would try to change fatigues as fast as possible, to reduce fratricide, if former NVA soldiers fight on both sides. The helmets would probably go first and soldiers be given the Bundeswehr M1 version. Minor items might be retained for some time and at some point the war just dictates everything.

[ToughOmbres]

Originally Posted by Homer

I think the Belgian Jigsaw pattern just looks cool, and it’s was issued during the period. That said, it seems a little bright for actual hiding use. I’d have to go with a somewhat faded set of US woodlands in which seemed to work a little better after a few FTXs when they had toned down. Outside of Korea and some schools I don’t recall wearing the heavyweight BDUs much, but spent a lot of time in the cotton and 50/50 ripstop hot weather BDUs.

For field wear during most of the year the cotton ones were awesome since they dried very quickly and kept you as cool as possible. On the downside, they wore out quickly (my cuffs had a habit of coming off!), were almost impossible for garrison wear since they wrinkled so easily, and faded (cook whites) quickly. A set I wore during back-to-back NTC rotations faded into a really subdued color that almost worked in the desert but was good for nothing but DX back home. The rip-stops were a little hotter, but lasted longer and were truly four season (in the south).

Favorite uniform ever is a close contest between the Vietnam-era OG107 jungle fatigues worn at JRTC and the rip-stop coffee stain deserts. Both were exceptionally comfortable, and fairly effective as long as you did your part by staying still, etc. FWIW, my OG’s seemed to get more effective the longer I wore them, as they picked up grass and mud stains which broke up the overall green effect. Some guys in the recon plt were allowed to experiment with spray painting their 107s to achieve a disruptive effect as well.

One item I’ve noticed in coverage of the fighting in Ukraine that would likely come into wide use in T2K would be the adoption of some form of tactical recognition sign or symbol, whether it’s a colored arm or helmet band, a contrasting shape, etc. Since uniformity may have long ago fallen by the wayside, and it’s possible to have mixed nationalities, such a system provides a quick and easy method of IFF no matter what “uniform” or kit is being worn. A part of daily security measures could be changing color or location of the sign.

To continue CastleBravo92’s analogy to the late Roman Era, the mobile elements of surviving units (aka “comitatenses”) may be uniformed and equipped in the best possible approximate of their pre-war national issue and appear similar to the group on the v1.0 box cover. Militia or static division base units (aka “limitanei”) may have a substitute standard, captured/civilian kit, or an admixture. Cold weather gear, etc. will likely be a mix of issue, captured, and civilian types. Both military clothing repair (SLCR) and cantonment civilians will be involved in the repair, repurposing, and manufacture of substitute standard clothing and equipment as resources permit. This includes the “harvest” of surplus friendly, civilian, and enemy clothing and kit wherever possible during battlefield cleanup.

I like the Belgian jigsaw pattern as well-looks like it would be more practical in an equatorial environment such as Congo rather than Northern Europe.

Someone gave me a blouse/shirt and pants in that pattern in the 1980's-never saw more repairs on a garment. European nations were/are much more thrifty than the US Army apparently. Cammies in this condition in the US Army would have been DX'ed a looong time ago. Doubt even DRMO would be able to do anything with them. That said they were really neat!

[ToughOmbres]

Originally Posted by Raellus

That's a good question. The issue is even further complicated if one uses the v1.0 timeline. The Bundeswehr would be absorbing a bunch of former DDR troops (whilst other East German military forces will be fighting against the West Germans/NATO). That means that the Bundeswehr is not only going to have to kit out its own, rapidly expanding organic forces (regular army, territorial, mobilized reserves, etc.), it's going to have to kit out tens, maybe hundreds of thousands former DDR troops as well. Will the Bundeswehr try to outfit them in Bundeswehr fatigues, or allow them to continue to wear their DDR uniforms?

In my T2kU, Bundeswehr regulars wear Flecktarn. Reservists and conscripts mostly wear the old, 1957 pattern Olivfarben (Olive green) combat unis. I think the Bundeswehr would try to kit out former DDR troops in either of those uniforms ASAP, but some might have to retain their DDR kit longer until manufacturing supply catches up to demand. That's going to create IFF issues between Unionist and Loyalist German forces. It's also interesting to note that both Polish and Czech forces used their own version of the East German "Raindrop" pattern camo.

The attached photo shows troops from some former Soviet republic kitted out in East German combat fatigues. It's pretty T2k, IMHO.

Good point-hadn't even thought about the NVA. Given the huuuge stocks of NVA surplus that appeared post 1991 I wonder if the newly unified Germany wouldn't issue the rain pattern NVA until supplies were exhausted and give brassards or arm shields for sheer practicality?

Another option-The Bundeswehr would have top priority for the new Flecktarn pattern while passing the old moleskin gray/grau to NVA formations. Flecktarn smocks, Jackets and shirts/blouses would be issued to NVA formations as supplies became available so the NVA forces would resemble British Paras in World War 2-Camo Denison Smocks on top and green pants-if that makes sense.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Homer

I think the Belgian Jigsaw pattern just looks cool, and it’s was issued during the period. That said, it seems a little bright for actual hiding use.

Agree on both counts. That Belgian camo wasn't even particularly effective in Belgium's former African colony.

Originally Posted by ToughOmbres

Another option-The Bundeswehr would have top priority for the new Flecktarn pattern while passing the old moleskin gray/grau to NVA formations. Flecktarn smocks, Jackets and shirts/blouses would be issued to NVA formations as supplies became available so the NVA forces would resemble British Paras in World War 2-Camo Denison Smocks on top and green pants-if that makes sense.

That's a really great point. I can't believe I'd never given consideration to the stopgap measure of mixing-and-matching that early on in the war. The Wehrmacht were great practitioners of that during WW2, but I'd always seen the practice in T2k as an exigency type measure as the manufacturing of new kit ground to a near halt. Putting NVA troops in Flecktarn smocks would do a great deal to help with IFF.

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

Note that these soldiers don't wear GDR-NVA helmets, though, but some other helmet type. I presume, German Bundeswehr leadership would try to change fatigues as fast as possible, to reduce fratricide, if former NVA soldiers fight on both sides. The helmets would probably go first and soldiers be given the Bundeswehr M1 version. Minor items might be retained for some time and at some point the war just dictates everything.

Yeah, in my T2k head cannon, the two soldiers in the pic were wearing captured US K-Pots with NVA covers. I agree that the first item of NVA kit the Bundesewehr would replace is that hideous East German helmet. Its silhouette is super distinctive, and it doesn't offer much protection to the wearer. Issuing former NVA troops fighting in the Bundeswehr with M1960 (US pattern M1 helmets) would be a good start to improving battlefield IFF. A good number of M1960 helmets would be available, as the Bundeswehr had started replacing it (IRL) with a more effective model made of ballistic composts (the Gefechtshelm M92) in 1992. Combine M1960 helmets with TO's point, and the issue of differentiating between Pro-Unification and Loyalist NVA troops would be pretty much solved.

@All: What do you think about the use of Tiger Stripe patterns by T2k US forces in the CONUS? Back in the IRL 1990s, army surplus stores were filled with Tiger Stripe BDUs, boonie hats, etc- most of it was new production as opposed to true US Army surplus. I can see some State Guards adopting it. It might even be unofficially adopted by one of the two dueling gov't factions as an IFF measure. IRL, it's making a comeback of sorts with US Special Forces (i.e. Green Berets), as evidenced by these recent picks:

[Homer]

I’d figure that by fall of 1998 units in CONUS would be trying to put clothes on the backs and shoes on the feet of any new “draftees” or “volunteers” they took in and you’d probably see a hodgepodge of uniforms, from the OG507 “pickle suit” all the way up to the newest type of BDU. The prospect of safety, and basic needs (food, shelter, clothing) being met is likely a big draw once the Mexican invasion, government schism, and rise of NA put paid to initial attempts at recovery.

I’d imagine disciplined units would make some attempts at uniformity, by at least insisting on a common article of clothing for recognition; for example, one organization I worked with didn’t care what you wore as long as you had a pair of DCU pants or silkies on. Less disciplined units or militia may adopt an even more informal standard going with headgear, a marker, or a brassard (“Everbody on duty wears a calumet high football jersey.”). In inclement weather, I could see this breaking down completely if issue type cold/wet weather gear is not available; a friend of mine was part of a unit that ended up being committed 3 weeks on a 72 hour tasking- when the weather turned cold they bought civilian sweaters, etc. and integrated them as best they could into their current attire!

There’s a psychological benefit to being able to keep your troops in the prewar uniform, or at least a standardized uniform. When you move into a new area, a unit in well maintained prewar kit or even standardized older kit will give the impression of being well supplied and disciplined given the ragtag nature of most forces by 2000. This can go a long way towards quietening an area.