Captured Vehicles & Battlefield Recognition Symbols

[Slappy]

Side point here. I used to impose penalties to using captured vehicles, particularly for recently captured and for PCs that didn't have the appropriate language skills. Don't expect that you can just jump in a foreign vehicle and operate it at normal effectiveness immediately. We had several "oops! so that's what that lever does!" moments.

[Legbreaker]

Sounds a little like the aircraft (specifically helicopters) piloting rules from 1st ed (in Free City of Krakow). Your skill level dictated how many aircraft you were familiar with and you had penalties for trying to fly unfamiliar ones. Machines labelled in foreign languages the character was not familiar with attracted greater penalties.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Sounds a little like the aircraft (specifically helicopters) piloting rules from 1st ed (in Free City of Krakow). Your skill level dictated how many aircraft you were familiar with and you had penalties for trying to fly unfamiliar ones. Machines labelled in foreign languages the character was not familiar with attracted greater penalties.

Yes indeed. Just last night I was watching an episode of Air Crash Investigations in which a crash that killed everyone on board was 100% due to the senior pilot having been trained in Soviet aircraft where the appearance of the artificial horizon instrument is very different to the western configuration.

[Blink_Dog]

I'd strip the weapons out of the turret and put red cross symbols on it, make people at first think it's a medical vehicle.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Slappy

Side point here. I used to impose penalties to using captured vehicles, particularly for recently captured and for PCs that didn't have the appropriate language skills. Don't expect that you can just jump in a foreign vehicle and operate it at normal effectiveness immediately. We had several "oops! so that's what that lever does!" moments.

I can see that for tanks and fighting vehicles, but not so much for wheeled vehicles like trucks and Jeeps

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

I can see that for tanks and fighting vehicles, but not so much for wheeled vehicles like trucks and Jeeps

I would have a problem with Pact jeeps and suchlike: I never learned how to drive a standard. Some PCs may have this problem as well.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Blink_Dog

I'd strip the weapons out of the turret and put red cross symbols on it, make people at first think it's a medical vehicle.

Legally speaking, could that act be treated like wearing enemy uniforms? Regardless, that sort of dirty trick, should you be caught, would likely result in a summary execution.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I would have a problem with Pact jeeps and suchlike: I never learned how to drive a standard. Some PCs may have this problem as well.

After being in Japan, I can shift with my left! Hated the 1/4T column shift pick ups.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Blink_Dog

I'd strip the weapons out of the turret and put red cross symbols on it, make people at first think it's a medical vehicle.

I think that if you have combat troops in it and/or non medical troops this could be a war crime. Do they care at that point that is a different question.

[Legbreaker]

Easy fix. Make it a black cross.
The vehicle is still classed as an ambulance, however it is allowed to actually use it's weapons for more than just self defence.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I would have a problem with Pact jeeps and suchlike: I never learned how to drive a standard. Some PCs may have this problem as well.

Auto cars, manual cars, trucks with split shift gear boxes, motorcycles - bring it on. I can drive them all.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Easy fix. Make it a black cross.
The vehicle is still classed as an ambulance, however it is allowed to actually use it's weapons for more than just self defence.

I do not think that would work either, any ambulance can not have a weapon on it. The Black cross is what we used from battalion aid station forward, red battalion aid station rear. The weapon is one of the things That makes a difference between Medivac (Medical Evacuation), and Casevac (Casualty Evacuation).

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

Auto cars, manual cars, trucks with split shift gear boxes, motorcycles - bring it on. I can drive them all.

Most non-Americans have no problem with manual gearboxes. Quite common.
I for one refuse to drive an automatic unless I absolutely have to - less control over the vehicle and no good for towing. They also tend to be about 5-10% more expensive.

[aspqrz]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Legally speaking, could that act be treated like wearing enemy uniforms? Regardless, that sort of dirty trick, should you be caught, would likely result in a summary execution.

Treachery and Perfidy. There's specific rules for abusing Red Cross and Truce signs ... but summary execution is not normally allowed, there has to be some sort of judicial proceeding (there are probably exceptions or legal caveats, but I can't remember any offhand).

There was a case just after the war where a German soldier was tried for firing on US troops from a clearly marked red cross/ambulance, convicted, and sentenced to 6 months gaol time.

http://www.worldcourts.com/imt/eng/d..._Hagendorf.pdf

is the report on that case,

Phil

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Most non-Americans have no problem with manual gearboxes. Quite common.
I for one refuse to drive an automatic unless I absolutely have to - less control over the vehicle and no good for towing. They also tend to be about 5-10% more expensive.

The family cars were mostly automatic; my stepmonster tried to teach me on a manual, but he gave up in less than an hour after much gear-grinding. He never tried again.

As far as I know, in my family only my ex-brother-in-law knows how to drive a standard. And the stepmonster.

Many have tried to teach me standards over my time in the Army, on various jeeps and old deuce-and-a-halfs. All have failed -- I just can't get the use of the clutch and shifter down. Luckily, the Army started to move to automatic transmission for all its vehicles not long after I enlisted.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Most non-Americans have no problem with manual gearboxes. Quite common.
I for one refuse to drive an automatic unless I absolutely have to - less control over the vehicle and no good for towing. They also tend to be about 5-10% more expensive.

I can .......... it depends upon what you do for a living though in the U.S.

I can, and do drive a manual. I can drive a split too, in dump trucks or tractors.

Years ago I bought a manual transmission and taught myself. I like my manual for the fuel savings and no one wants to borrow it!

[Silent Hunter UK]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Treachery and Perfidy. There's specific rules for abusing Red Cross and Truce signs ... but summary execution is not normally allowed, there has to be some sort of judicial proceeding (there are probably exceptions or legal caveats, but I can't remember any offhand).

In T2K, that judicial proceeding is probably a Soviet Major saying "I find you guilty of perfidy and sentence you to death..." then shooting you dead.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK

In T2K, that judicial proceeding is probably a Soviet Major saying "I find you guilty of perfidy and sentence you to death..." then shooting you dead.

I agree completely. I'm reading a history of WWII from D-Day to the Fall of Berlin and its filled with accounts of summary executions carried out by both sides. It's not like anyone needed much of an excuse when the blood was up...

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Targan

Auto cars, manual cars, trucks with split shift gear boxes, motorcycles - bring it on. I can drive them all.

Most military vehicles have manual transmission, if your PC has a wheel vehicle skill than he should know how to drive with a manual transmission

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Most military vehicles have manual transmission, if your PC has a wheel vehicle skill than he should know how to drive with a manual transmission

Except, apparently, in the US military... :/

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Except, apparently, in the US military... :/

I don't think so your forgeting the M939 5 Ton

[Legbreaker]

One out of how many types of vehicles in the US inventory?

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

One out of how many types of vehicles in the US inventory?

I think it started in '85 and slowly spread, The final M151's And M35's were being automatic variants before being replaced. An M36 2 1/2T is REO's designation. Same with the 5T trucks. "M" series tractors weren't altered yet, I don't know if it ever started.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

One out of how many types of vehicles in the US inventory?

The US Army had/has? over 20,000 in this inventory, given it's many variants, the number made and its many uses, many soldiers would received training on it.

It's also found in basic rule book of Twilight 2000 V 2.2, probably due to it being produce in huge numbers in the US

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Except, apparently, in the US military... :/

In the US Military of 2016, yes most are automatic. In the Military of TW2000 I think only the Hummer was automatic.

[Legbreaker]

Anyway, I'm sure ex/current US military members amongst us can give us a clearer picture of the prevalence of automatic/manual vehicles than either of us. We can look at statistics all day long, but there's nothing like hearing from somebody who's been there, done that.

[unkated]

Given the number of skills listed in the game vs the number of skills available/used in RL, I'd call this a difference not worth noting for the sake of granualrity, and assume that somewhere before you leap behind the wheel of a vehicle in T2K that if you have wheeled vehicle skill, someone taught you to drive a stick.

Or, in Paul's case, no wheeled vehicle skill :-)

You could mark the skill with an asterisk (for a driver without manual transmission training) and make the maintenance roll for the vehicle one level more difficult after being driven by with only automatic transmission skills...

Personally, I can use a manual transmission; I taught my wife, and my son (who picked most of it up himself, but he's an automotive wunderkind).

To me, a more important division within "Wheeled vehicle" is the difference between driving something car/lt truck sized (up to a 1-ton truck) and something bigger - say a 5-ton....

Uncle Ted

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Targan

Auto cars, manual cars, trucks with split shift gear boxes, motorcycles - bring it on. I can drive them all.

I'M RIGHT BEHIND (BESIDE?) YOU! Just came back from out West and jumped out of my 18 speed PETE with both a ranger and a splitter. I was going to climb on the bike but we still have goddamned snow on the ground in northern PA! There is no ground vehicle I am not licensed to drive (CDL A with HAZMAT, Passenger, tanker, doubles, and triples, and a motorcycle endorsement too). I'm also licensed to "bare boat" both sailboats and powerboats (US Sailing Academy and the Power Squadrons). I have started the booklet for my ground school for Fixed Wing, but I have to get my physical for actual flight training. That requires seeing a doctor with a 3-month waiting list. I WILL be flying before I'm 50.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

I don't think so your forgeting the M939 5 Ton

Except that the M939 is a five-speed automatic with a 240hp CUMMINS diesel. I have driven all three of the US Army's post WW2 5-tons and all of them in a single year.

Fresh out of Boot, I was given the oldest truck in the motor pool for RSOP duty. The M39A2 was made in 1967 (a year before I was born). It was a "rust bucket" with a leaky canvas roof and the older ring mount for an AA machine gun. The MACK V8 Diesel was a copy of the older two-stroke Detroit with a turbo and a 5 speed Spicer Hi and Low range manual transmission. It had ALL of the characteristics of a Detroit. It ran best when held against the governor (2K rpms), and leaked oil like a Detroit does. It only had 200 hp and a top speed of 50 mph. It had a load of torq at 600 lbs, so you could push through most terrain when loaded. The Vietnam vets swore by that truck because you could shoot off an entire cylinder bank and it would still run as long as it could get compression to detonate the fuel. It also had air over hydraulic for the brakes. Losing air pressure didn't entirely rob you of your breaks. My truck was actually a 7 cylinder because one of the pistons had blown its rings and the mechanics couldn't get a replacement kit.

Two months later I graduated to an AM General M809 5-Ton and the old M39 went off to the Surplus Market. The M809 was also a 5-speed manual (CUMMINS) with a CUMMINS NHC250 V6. It had a Hi-Lo tranny, Air over Hydraulics for brakes, and WORKING air driven windshield wipers (Yaa!). With 250 hp and 400 ft/lbs of torq it was a bit faster to speed, but maxed out at 55mph.

At the beginning of the next year, I got my AM General M939 5-Ton. CUMMINS V6 Diesel with 240hp and 500 ft/lbs of torq mated to a CUMMINS 5-speed AUTOMATIC with both Hi and Low range. Central Tire Inflation System, mated to Super Duty fully articulated Super Single tires (no more duals). 6X6 wheel drive IN ADDITION to a Split Differential to ensure no more "winching" or "towing" out of mud pits at Ft. Drum. The only thing they screwed up was the air system. It was redundant Air over Air but it was supplied by ONLY ONE compressor located on the driver's side of the engine block. Lose your compressor...Lose your breaks and ranging. The shifter would still work if you muscled it. We would drive these like a "clutchless stick shift." I still remember the shift points in my old M931 Tractor at the 475th Qm Co. 6mph, 17mph, 31mph, 45mph. Top Speed was governed to 65 mph but it would do 80 mph with the governor backed off. Tires were "squirmy" at those speeds though.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by CDAT

In the US Military of 2016, yes most are automatic. In the Military of TW2000 I think only the Hummer was automatic.

The Army went all Automatic in 1983. They finally got it done in the early 90's. The M939, M931 tractor, HEMMETT, and Hummer were all automatic with Central Tire Inflation System and Self Leveling Suspension for the big trucks. The Hummer graduated from the naturally aspirated 6.3L Diesel found in Chevy pickups to the larger 6.5L Diesel to the "High Output" Turbo Diesel (pre- Duramax) that was chipped. These "High Outputs" would NOT have survived the Exchange (EMP). The newer "eco-friendly" 5-Tons and 10-Tons bought after the First Gulf War were "chipped" too. I'm guessing the US would have lost half its logistics support in the Exchange. They would have had a lot of "parts trucks" to cannibalize from though....