Cavalry in Twilight 2000

[bobcat]

the US does have a small breeding program located at Fort Sill. other units may also have informal horsemanship programs. by the 90's its is probable that most US special forces have their own horsemanship and breeding programs to support their operations.

also Mules will likely be used more than horses to transport material. and in some cases men. while they are slower than horses the amount they can move is much higher thereby allowing a mule unit to move more supplies faster than an equally sized horse unit.

[Targan]

James, I just thought of an appendix you could include in your PDF for cavalry operations in Thailand, Vietnam and some other parts of SE Asia and the Sub-Continent - elephant-mounted forces! Not as easy as horses to obtain, train, care for and feed but imagine the shock value. And it's a damn sight harder to shoot a mahout's mount out from under him than a horse cavalryman's.

Granted, it's a limited geographic area that elephant cavalry could be found in, but there have been a few discussions over the years about campaigns set in SE Asia. Imagine a group of foot or truck mounted infantrymen facing down a troop of the Royal Thai Elephant Cataphract Corps! I'd be fetching my brown trousers.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Targan

James, I just thought of an appendix you could include in your PDF for cavalry operations in Thailand, Vietnam and some other parts of SE Asia and the Sub-Continent - elephant-mounted forces! Not as easy as horses to obtain, train, care for and feed but imagine the shock value. And it's a damn sight harder to shoot a mahout's mount out from under him than a horse cavalryman's.

Granted, it's a limited geographic area that elephant cavalry could be found in, but there have been a few discussions over the years about campaigns set in SE Asia. Imagine a group of foot or truck mounted infantrymen facing down a troop of the Royal Thai Elephant Cataphract Corps! I'd be fetching my brown trousers.

Now that will be a mammoth task to research...

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Now that will be a mammoth task to research...

A mammoth _tusk_ to research?
No doubt you'd come away with a trunk full of data!

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Now that will be a mammoth task to research...

Originally Posted by WallShadow

A mammoth _tusk_ to research?
No doubt you'd come away with a trunk full of data!

*SLAP!*

[Targan]

A jumbo round of elephant puns? I'm all ears.

[Canadian Army]

Originally Posted by Targan

James, I just thought of an appendix you could include in your PDF for cavalry operations in Thailand, Vietnam and some other parts of SE Asia and the Sub-Continent - elephant-mounted forces! Not as easy as horses to obtain, train, care for and feed but imagine the shock value. And it's a damn sight harder to shoot a mahout's mount out from under him than a horse cavalryman's.

Granted, it's a limited geographic area that elephant cavalry could be found in, but there have been a few discussions over the years about campaigns set in SE Asia. Imagine a group of foot or truck mounted infantrymen facing down a troop of the Royal Thai Elephant Cataphract Corps! I'd be fetching my brown trousers.

In Challenge #52; Going on Safari it has the following unit:

1st Alternative Cavalry Regiment
This unit was formally organized in May of 2000. What makes it unique is that instead of relying on tanks and APCs for transportation, members of the first rides elephants. The elephants, originally belonging to the Bishop Brothers Circus, were set free in Bellingham, Washington in late 1999 when the crew and performers fled into the countryside. Many of the animals died in the interning months. Roberts found the elephants grazing in a field in April and rounded them up with the aid of an infantry platoon subordinate to the 47th Infantry Division. In May Roberts went to the divisional HQ with his idea for an elephant-borne "cavalry" unit-and was surprised to find his idea readily accepted. Roberts was given command of the 1st Alternative Cavalry Regiment. Including leaders, the regiment consists of 45 members (20 Veteran, 15 Experienced and 10 Novice NPCs).

[Lundgren]

Interesting thread

There was a comment about the problem of maintenance of bicycles. But with so many other things, it is when you look at the modern variants. Something like this tend to keep working http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_military_bicycle but it is sure not as fun to use as a more modern one. The royal guard regiment was just getting rid of them back in 1992. But there was still a few that we could borrow, to get to a supermarket nearby, if we had some free time.

They were used back in the days for infantry units, and they trained to be towed behind a tractor or a work horse. Basically the same tactics used by our northern brigades to tow infantry on skis during winter.

Might be a good option for infantry units working together with cavalry units.

[headquarters]

We had bicycle mounted dragoons in the 1950s and 1960s in my old regiment. Apparently they were quite effective as they could outpace and outcarry regular marching troops easily.

I can definently see horse/bicycledragoons and cavalry scouts coming back in a T2K setting.

I also think melee weapons like sabres, maces and other sharp and pointy things being reintroduced.To save ammo for one - why shoot an unarmed prisoner when he can be hacked to death without spending a bullet?

As for the cavalry charge I dont know. The LMG was pretty much the end of that as far as I can understand. But if modern automatic weapons were running out of ammo and parts..maybe it could be reintroduced.

Originally Posted by Lundgren

Interesting thread

There was a comment about the problem of maintenance of bicycles. But with so many other things, it is when you look at the modern variants. Something like this tend to keep working http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_military_bicycle but it is sure not as fun to use as a more modern one. The royal guard regiment was just getting rid of them back in 1992. But there was still a few that we could borrow, to get to a supermarket nearby, if we had some free time.

They were used back in the days for infantry units, and they trained to be towed behind a tractor or a work horse. Basically the same tactics used by our northern brigades to tow infantry on skis during winter.

Might be a good option for infantry units working together with cavalry units.

[Tombot]

[QUOTE=headquarters;52759]

I can definently see horse/bicycledragoons and cavalry scouts coming back in a T2K setting.

I also think melee weapons like sabres, maces and other sharp and pointy things being reintroduced.To save ammo for one - why shoot an unarmed prisoner when he can be hacked to death without spending a bullet?


I am absolutely convinced about these two points.
In my games a lot of people carry sharp and pointy things and having a bicycle (even if they just carry their load on it).

[Olefin]

There are a couple of other small cavalry units that you missed in your writeup or at least units still using horses.

You have the Caisson Platoon of the Third Infantry Regiment in DC - dont know if they survived the nuclear attack though.

Connecticut has a very interesting unit - 1st and 2nd Company Governors Horse Guard - its a state militia unit that is an actual cavalry unit that is trained in military tactics and small arms (specifically 9mm and 45's).

They very likely are now being used as for real cavalry, most likely with the addition of carbines or perhaps Uzis to their pistols for arms.

[Medic]

The Finnish non-mechanized infantry (Infantry Brigade type 80) usea bicycles and agricultural tractors as means of conveyance of a great deal of its troops and by the time I was in service, the bicycle marches were very common (not to mention formation drills with bicycles and skis).

I would not mock a bicycle as a means of conveyance, as it saves the military a bunch on resources. You have to feed only the rider and veterinary services are provided by a couple of bicycle mechanics (in Finnish nicknamed as "pumppuluumu", literally a pump prune), who are often the not-so capable soldiers in the Headquarters and Supply Company (when I was in service, the conscript bicycle mechanics and others in support or supply roles were mostly either very much uninterested in serving or the slightly impaired ones - poor sight, cognitive problems etc.).

Last horses in the Finnish Army were sold in late 90'ies. The military slang said, the army horses had "service days on their asses" - they had a registry number shaved on their behinds. Nowadays the Army Dragoon Band is the only unit to use horses, but as far as I know, the horses are privately owned.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Olefin

There are a couple of other small cavalry units that you missed in your writeup or at least units still using horses.

You have the Caisson Platoon of the Third Infantry Regiment in DC - dont know if they survived the nuclear attack though.

Connecticut has a very interesting unit - 1st and 2nd Company Governors Horse Guard - its a state militia unit that is an actual cavalry unit that is trained in military tactics and small arms (specifically 9mm and 45's).

They very likely are now being used as for real cavalry, most likely with the addition of carbines or perhaps Uzis to their pistols for arms.

Useful info thanks.

Any particular reason why Uzis?

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Medic

The Finnish non-mechanized infantry (Infantry Brigade type 80) usea bicycles and agricultural tractors as means of conveyance of a great deal of its troops and by the time I was in service, the bicycle marches were very common (not to mention formation drills with bicycles and skis).

I would not mock a bicycle as a means of conveyance, as it saves the military a bunch on resources. You have to feed only the rider and veterinary services are provided by a couple of bicycle mechanics (in Finnish nicknamed as "pumppuluumu", literally a pump prune), who are often the not-so capable soldiers in the Headquarters and Supply Company (when I was in service, the conscript bicycle mechanics and others in support or supply roles were mostly either very much uninterested in serving or the slightly impaired ones - poor sight, cognitive problems etc.).

Last horses in the Finnish Army were sold in late 90'ies. The military slang said, the army horses had "service days on their asses" - they had a registry number shaved on their behinds. Nowadays the Army Dragoon Band is the only unit to use horses, but as far as I know, the horses are privately owned.

Again really useful info, I am far from being an expert on the Finnish forces but will add some detail in the next rewrite.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Lundgren

Interesting thread

There was a comment about the problem of maintenance of bicycles. But with so many other things, it is when you look at the modern variants. Something like this tend to keep working http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_military_bicycle but it is sure not as fun to use as a more modern one. The royal guard regiment was just getting rid of them back in 1992. But there was still a few that we could borrow, to get to a supermarket nearby, if we had some free time.

They were used back in the days for infantry units, and they trained to be towed behind a tractor or a work horse. Basically the same tactics used by our northern brigades to tow infantry on skis during winter.

Might be a good option for infantry units working together with cavalry units.

Nice bit of technical detail, thanks.

[Medic]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Again really useful info, I am far from being an expert on the Finnish forces but will add some detail in the next rewrite.

I don't claim to be an expert, but having served in the said Army, I have some useful knowledge about it. If you wonder about anything, drop me a PM and I'll see what I can dig up.

[Olefin]

"Useful info thanks.

Any particular reason why Uzis? "

Was thinking of something small that they could carry easily with a unit that was trained only on pistols. From the research I have been able to do they didnt have the unit trained on rifles or larger weapons. However something like the smaller Uzi's you would think would fit into such a unit pretty easily and offer more firepower than just the pistols they were trained with.

[Medic]

An MP-5 would be a highly more likely weapon for such an unit than Uzi, being in activeuse by the U.S. armed forces as well as a number police departments. As for ease of use, I'm pretty sure the men would have been trained with a rifle in basic training, so the MP-5 would be a logical choice for a longarm, if not carbines or assault rifles.

[Olefin]

An MP-5 is a great idea for them Medic, especially as they are considered almost a police unit as they are currently constituted - so once things started going bad and pistols werent enough firepower adding that to their weapons makes a lot of sense.

Thank you!

[Medic]

Don't mention.

Of course, another choice might be the old M1 and M2 series carbine. The military would probably have them in some cold storage in numbers...

[Olefin]

Food for thought by the way for those who think that horses may be in short supply due to "starving hordes" in the US

the US general public sees horses as either pets, work animals or race horses - but one thing they dont see them as is food - consumption of horsemeat in the US is very very low among Americans as compared to other places in the world - it would be the equivalent of eating the family dog or cat for most Americans

also by the time starvation really began to take its toll in the US it was late 1998 to early 1999 - by which time MilGov and CivGov would have known that they had to have horses as they saw gas stocks decline and disappear in many places - thus they would have grabbed as many as possible and guarded them

and Last Submarine notwithstanding most military units are very well placed to stop starving hordes from grabbing vital military items - thats why they get issued machine guns, mines and Claymores - and if people say that they would stand aside or not open fire - after the first few executions by firing squad or hangings for such behavior they would definitely follow orders and open fire.

Plus there are a lot of farmers who know how vital horses would be without gasoline - and they would be doing just as much shooting to protect those horses as the military would be doing.

Take down a starving group of people to save an old cow or some piglets - no. Take down a starving group of people to save your breeding stock or the horses that mean you plant enough to feed yourself and your family versus starve - most farmers would only pause long enough to reload in a situation like that. And given how long the US was at war by late 1997 I would think many farmers would have a lot of ammo and rifles ready and available.

[Legbreaker]

Which will be eaten first - horses, or rats?
My money is on the former.

[Olefin]

There wont be anyone defending the rats with shotguns, rifles and pistols or in the case of the US military, machine guns and Claymores and mines.

There will be plenty of defenders for the horses.

I will put my money on the rats going first.

[Legbreaker]

And that'll be the same even when those "defenders" are the ones starving will it?

[Panther Al]

*sigh*

You two. Chill. Seriously.


Leg: Here in the states, horses are simply not seen as food. So while I don't say that rats will be on the menu before horses, by and large, most anyone would do anything they can to make sure they don't have look at a Horse and think, "Mmm.. Big Mac."

Olefin: Leg is right, when it comes down to Eat Trigger, or starve, Trigger is about to be a Big Mac. Even though it would be piss poor planning as to long term survival, the short term will more often than not be viewed as somewhat more important.

[Legbreaker]

Exactly! Of course they're not JUST food, but when it's eat your horse or die of starvation, the choice is obvious.
And there's plenty of historical examples of just this very thing happening.

My mother bred horses. I have a lot of experience with working with them and know very well the personal bond which can develop - each and every animal had it's own name and certainly their own personality. Some I would absolutely HATE to have to slaughter even if it my life on the line, others, "pass me the knife, that bitch has got to DIE!"

[Olefin]

horses are going to be seen as military assets by MilGov and CivGov - especially one the Mexicans invade using cavalry units and once they are short on gas to get things like guns and ammo up to their forces

and no military will sit idly by and watch their assets get destroyed in the name of feeding civilians - so will there be a reduction because some willl be used for food by desperate people or die from radiation or from starvation themselves - for sure

but reduced so far that their arent enough to be used by the military for both mounts and for hauling guns and supplies - not gonna happen - maybe if you only had a couple million - but not with the sheer number of horses there are in the US - which doesnt mean that maybe by 2001 we are down from 6.5 million to one million or so horses - but the ones that are left are going to be very well guarded and not to be used as food by then

plus in this case we have canon to back up that statement - the availability of horses for the Texas module shows that they do exist and exist in good numbers - I doubt if there was a huge shortage that the characters would have been given horses so easily and told they could keep them when they were done - that alone shows that horses are still relatively plentiful by early 2001, at least in Texas

[Olefin]

James,

One thing you might want to look at is cavalry units for Africa - there are actually quite a lot of horses in Ethiopia for one (its in the top ten countries of horses, in 1997 its population of horses was well over a million) and that country had a tradition of using cavalry in its military, especially in very hard to reach areas.

I am in the process of creating a cavalry unit for use in Kenya where there are about 2000 horses that are used mostly for racing, shows, and safaris on horseback. It would be mostly a white Kenyan unit since horse ownership is concentrated among them as a lasting vestige of colonialism there (there are about 32,000 White Kenyans who stayed after it declared independence and are citizens of the country). I will send it to you if you like once I have it done - its a single battalion, basically more like mounted infantry than pure cavalry.

[Medic]

With horses you must bear in mind, untrained to war, they are very unpredictable if someone starts shooting around them. In fact, they are very unpredictable with someone walking by in a rain poncho or with a flag. Horses shy away from almost anything they have not been exactly trained to tolerate - I've seen an actor take a rather nasty tumble, when he fired a musket pistol while sitting on a horse, who had not been accustomized in loud noises.

So, yes, mounted infantry in the old Dragoon-style would be more likely than actual Cavalry style, fighting from horseback. Of course, you might be able to muster some horses from history re-enactors, who might have theirs trained for jousting and have a platoon of lancers.

[Olefin]

The history re-enactors is probably exactly where you would get a lot of the cavalry units that MilGov and CivGov would be raising. There is an article in Challenge Magazine number 42 that has exactly that as the basis for a cav unit

"1st Cavalry Squadron, NJSM: Seventy-five horsemounted troopers armed with FN-FALs, four M79s, and two M60s. They also carry a miscellaneous collection of sabers looted from a local museum. This unit was initially formed around a cadre of a half-dozen civil war reenactment enthusiasts, and some of the troopers use their reenactment uniforms and equipment. "

Sounds like what you have is a unit that had some horses initially in it that were accustomed to the sounds of gunfire as part of the re-enactment and the re-enactors helped train the other horses afterward.

By the way its not just gunfire that makes horses skittish. Ever seen the Braveheart scene where Gibson is giving his freedom speech before the Battle of Stirling? If you notice every time he yells the horse gets skittish and starts moving. Him moving back and forth as he made the speech wasnt written into the movie, it was the horse reacting to the yelling.

By the way that canon article (A Rock in Troubled Waters) shows that horses are definitely still available in 2001 and that they are being bred for government use - from the article

"Port Elizabeth: The 150 people inhabiting Port Elizabeth make their living raising and selling horses. They live in a cluster of buildings near Route 47." and
"The survivors are relatively prosperous by Twilight: 2000 standards-they farm enough to eat well and even export a bit.
Dietary protein comes from fish and chicken. Goats, sheep,cattle and horses are raised primarily for government consumption.
Salvage and re-manufacturing are thriving cottage industries, and pay the taxes in the Milgov protected areas."