Just In: Osama is dead

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Of course there is some level of conspiracy (in fact, secrecy) and, in France, we call that "raison d'état". In 1998, I was finishing my bachelor in modern history at the American University of Paris. We were prosecuting Papon (for his action during ww2) and Miterrand had just declared that the archives would be made available to the public. It was true but for 5% of them. As a good historian, my teacher asked for access to these 5% (after all, the French president had just said that free access will be given to them). On the next day, he received a call from the minister of interior affairs asking him not to try to go any further or he would be thrown out of the country.

Tell me about it! I was researching Dien Bien Phu for a paper I was writing and filed a request to access the military archives. You would have thought that I had put on a ninja outfit and tried to paint the Effiel Tower red, white and blue! Hostile, threatening and uncooperative does not begin to describe the atitude!!!! So I cut my stay in France short and left for Germany.

Funny thing, I was able to get much easier access to the German military achives and got invaluable help from a trained staff of profesional historians. Never wrote that paper on DBP, but managed an even better one covering the German side of the fighting and surrender of elements of the 106th Infantry Division.

Still, I've always wondered why the atitude, especially since I was only requesting access to the combat logs of the various units involved in the fighting for the Hughette strongpoints...must have been the site of some kind of nuclear research facility......

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

Legbreaker, vortex ring is nothing new; there is nothing mysterious about it- it is a known risk of descending in the hover, made worse when descending in the hover into a confined space, and when descending quickly. Ever watch the helicopter descent in Jurassic Park? Vortex ring is the reason the helo descends so slowly into that ravine...
All it takes is a slight miscalculation of the horizontal stop point, leaving you with a longer than planned hovering descent, the need to get on the ground fast... it doesn't mean anyone made a mistake, or anything failed- it just means that things can go wrong when you have to do something dangerous (as I suspect you know better than I do...)

Is vortex ring illustrated in the opening sequence to the TV series China Beach? A medevac chopper is landing between two smoke grenades, and the smoke billows out, up, and around to the tops of the rotors, apparently.

[95th Rifleman]

I read a joke the other day that made me think.

America has releaseda definitive version of events in regards to bin laden. He was shot by Navy Seals after charging them, mounted on Shergar, wielding Iraqi WMDs and using Lord Lucan as a human shield.

Bin laden was one of the 21st century's most influential men. Think about it, one bloke managed to hide for 10 years while being hunted by the world's biggest (arguably the last) superpower, with all those resources and money behind the search. He was responsible for dragging America into the Afghan war and expending vast resources in the prosecution of that war, a conflict that has dragged so many western nations into it.

Now it's over and he's reduced to a few jokes and conspiracy theories. Yet America is still fighting in Afghanistan.

You can't help wonder who won in the end. Decades from now the conspiracy theories will still be out there and people will still be using his name to justify their terrorist agenda. Even after his death, you can't help wonder who has won really, bin laden or America.

[Sanjuro]

If you can be bothered with 4 minutes of film, here is a demo using a radio-controlled model; the actual phenomenom is at about 2:40, but he explains how he is going to set it up first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kz_gOWaR7Y
As for China Beach (never heard of it until today!), I watched the opening credits on youtube but none of the helo shots seems to last long enough.

[Owen E Oulton]

It's occurred to me that if they want to find Zawakiri, they have to think outside the box. F'rinstance if Osama was in Abbotabad, they simply have to find a place called Costellobad.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

You would have thought that I had put on a ninja outfit and tried to paint the Effiel Tower red, white and blue!

You should have done that. You would have been recognized as a bright and "avant-garde" artist. You would aslo probably have received a few millions € from the french governement and you would still be receiving money from copyright of all taken pictures.

About DBP you went to the wrong country, you must have gone to Vietnam.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

There may another reason for for the chopper crash. Even the best quality NVGs have issues with depth perception. Landing in an enclosed compound, with partial cloud cover would create problems for pilots using NVGs. Some of the stories that are floating around state that the pilot may have hit either a wall or one of the compound's building with a rotor which would have caused the crash...

I would not be surprised at all if this turns out to be the case. There was a situation here in Western Australia in the very early 1990s where the SASR had to medevac a driver at night because he crashed the patrol Landie into a ditch that didn't show up very well in his NVGs. Gave him some broken ribs and lung complications as I recall.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

You should have done that. You would have been recognized as a bright and "avant-garde" artist. You would aslo probably have received a few millions € from the french governement and you would still be receiving money from copyright of all taken pictures.

About DBP you went to the wrong country, you must have gone to Vietnam.

LOL

I'll keep that in mind the next time I travel to France! Although the IRS would have waaaaay too much fun with me when I return!

As for DBP, it was easy to get info from the Vietnamese (on the other hand explaining to my boss why I was contacting the Viet Military Attache was lots of fun...NOT!). Although I have to admit I was really surprised at the atitude they displayed, certainly not what I expected, even offered to arrange a tour of the battlefield if I traveled to Vietnam, an offer that I make take up some day.

The French Army on the other hand....I was left with the distinct impression that the next combat operation by the Paras would be directed against the hotel I was staying at!!!

Ah well!

[Legbreaker]

I'm not saying the vortex ring isn't possible, or even all that unlikely, just that you'd think highly trained and practised pilots as you would hope were used would know how to avoid such a thing occurring.
Of course we don't even know if that is what caused the crash, it's just a guess (educated perhaps, but still just a guess).
My statement is that the timing seems awfully convenient to cover up the possibility the AQ detected them coming and had the time to fire off a few shots. It's the way the US have released information (very grudgingly in dribs and drabs) about the operation that's fodder for conspiracy theories.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I'm not saying the vortex ring isn't possible, or even all that unlikely, just that you'd think highly trained and practised pilots as you would hope were used would know how to avoid such a thing occurring.
Of course we don't even know if that is what caused the crash, it's just a guess (educated perhaps, but still just a guess).
My statement is that the timing seems awfully convenient to cover up the possibility the AQ detected them coming and had the time to fire off a few shots. It's the way the US have released information (very grudgingly in dribs and drabs) about the operation that's fodder for conspiracy theories.

Even the most experienced pilot has that dumbass moment. One that comes to mind is a pilot flying a FM-2 Wildcat at an air show, he had over two thousand hours in that aircraft, and on the day of the air show, forgot to unlock the tailwheel and managed to ground loop and flip the plane.

Under combat stress, I can see a pilot making an error that results in the damage or destruction of the aircraft. It happens all too often and a good planner always makes sure that a backup is available, a brutal lesson that had to be relearned after Desert One.

As for the conspiracy theorists......its only going to get worse!

[Abbott Shaull]

Gee seeing that supposedly his compound was heavily guarded. It would surprise me that they had time to shoot down one of the helicopters in the force that was sent to take out Osama. At least they had spares milling around in the assault force to recover both the pilots/crew and the SEALs who were on the helicopter.

[Legbreaker]

It would have only taken one man with an AK.....
Doesn't really matter how many were in the assaulting force if that one man was able to fire off a burst or two and got lucky.

Of course I'm not saying that's how it happened, just that it's a possibility, and given that the US have been rather hesitant to give details of the op.....

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It would have only taken one man with an AK.....
Doesn't really matter how many were in the assaulting force if that one man was able to fire off a burst or two anf got lucky.

Of course I'm not saying that's how it happened, just that it's a possibility, and given that the US have been rather hesitant to give details of the op.....

Honestly I am not too interested in the release of the details. Why piss off people anymore than they are already over the damn situation.

[Legbreaker]

Sure there are plenty of people out there, possibly even the majority, who don't care a bit about the details, just the result (and many who don't even care about that). However, there's still plenty of people who are intensely interested, such as the Pakistani government, or AQ for example...
And you can bet that virtually every intelligence agency and terrorist organisation on the planet will be doing whatever they can to find out as much detail as they can - information is power after all.

There's no doubt that much of the detail should remain secret, but the information which has been produced by the US is at best confusing, and at worst possibly a complete fabrication. When certain details are released, then retracted and replaced with other details, it creates a fertile breeding ground for conspiracy theories. We don't know what is true and what is just misdirection, or even if there was any attempt at misdirection. Without believable independant sources, we're left with very little to base opinions on.

More than anything I believe it's the PR campaign which has failed here, not the actual operation itself. It seems the US were not ready for the loss of an aircraft or the failure of the mission - the PR people had it seems planned only for complete success and were caught short when things didn't quite turn out as expected. Even the possibility of the death of UBL doesn't seem to have received much forethought.

[Targan]

I see what you're saying Leg. I'm inclined to accept the current US explanation of events but I do find a few aspects of the case troubling (perhaps confusing would be a better way to describe it). Two areas of concern that spring immediately to mind are why more emphasis wasn't placed on capturing OBL alive, and why he was given a burial at sea without any independent observers being invited to verify the identity of the body.

I've never been very much into conspiracies myself. I'm an Occam's razor kind of guy.

[Legbreaker]

CORUSCANT — Obi-Wan Kenobi, the mastermind of some of the most devastating attacks on the Galactic Empire and the most hunted man in the galaxy, was killed in a firefight with Imperial forces near Alderaan, Darth Vader announced on Sunday.

In a late-night appearance in the East Room of the Imperial Palace, Lord Vader declared that “justice has been done” as he disclosed that agents of the Imperial Army and stormtroopers of the 501st Legion had finally cornered Kenobi, one of the leaders of the Jedi rebellion, who had eluded the Empire for nearly two decades. Imperial officials said Kenobi resisted and was cut down by Lord Vader's own lightsaber. He was later dumped out of an airlock.

The news touched off an extraordinary outpouring of emotion as crowds gathered in the Senate District and outside the Imperial Palace, waving imperial flags, cheering, shouting, laughing and chanting, “Hail to the Emperor! Hail Lord Vader!” In the alien protection zone, crowds sang “The Ten Thousand Year Empire.” Throughout the Sah'c district, airspeeder drivers honked horns deep into the night.

“For over two decades, Kenobi has been the Jedi rebellion’s leader and symbol,” the Lord of the Sith said in a statement broadcast across the galaxy via HoloNet. “The death of Kenobi marks the most significant achievement to date in our empire’s effort to defeat the rebel alliance. But his death does not mark the end of our effort. There’s no doubt that the rebellion will continue to pursue attacks against us. We must and we will remain vigilant at home and abroad.”

Obi-Wan Kenobi ’s demise is a defining moment in the stormtrooper-led fight against terrorism, a symbolic stroke affirming the relentlessness of the pursuit of those who turned against the Empire at the end of the Clone Wars. What remains to be seen, however, is whether it galvanizes Kenobi’s followers by turning him into a martyr or serves as a turning of the page in the war against the Rebel Alliance and gives further impetus to Emperor Palpatine to step up Stormtrooper recruitment.

In an earlier statement issued to the press, Kenobi boasted that striking him down could make him "more powerful than you could possibly imagine."

How much his death will affect the rebel alliance itself remains unclear. For years, as they failed to find him, Imperial leaders have said that he was more symbolically important than operationally significant because he was on the run and hindered in any meaningful leadership role. Yet he remained the most potent face of terrorism in the Empire, and some of those who played down his role in recent years nonetheless celebrated his death.

Given Kenobi’s status among radicals, the Imperial Galactic government braced for possible retaliation. A Grand Moff of the Imperial Starfleet said late Sunday that military bases in the core worlds and around the galaxy were ordered to a higher state of readiness. The Imperial Security Bureau issued a galactic travel warning, urging citizens in volatile areas “to limit their travel outside of their local star systems and avoid mass gatherings and demonstrations.”

The strike could deepen tensions within the Outer Rim, which has periodically bristled at Imperial counterterrorism efforts even as Kenobi evidently found safe refuge it its territories for nearly two decades. Since taking over as Supreme Commander of the Imperial Navy, Lord Vader has ordered significantly more strikes on suspected terrorist targets in the Outer Rim, stirring public anger there and leading to increased criminal activity.

When the end came for Kenobi, he was found not in the remote uncharted areas of Wild Space and the Unknown Regions, where he has long been presumed to be sheltered, but in a massive compound about an hour’s drive west from the Tatooine capital of Bestine. He had been living under the alias "Ben" Kenobi for some time.

The compound, only about 50 miles from the base of operations for the Imperial Storm Squadron, is at the end of a narrow dirt road and is roughly eight times larger than other homes in the area, which were largely occupied by Tusken Raiders. When Imperial operatives converged on the planet on Saturday, following up on recent intelligence, two local moisture farmers “resisted the assault force” and were killed in the middle of an intense gun battle, a senior Stormtrooper said, but details were still sketchy early Monday morning.

A representative of the Imperial Starfleet said that military and intelligence officials first learned last summer that a “high-value target” was hiding somewhere on the desert world and began working on a plan for going in to get him. Beginning in March, Lord Vader worked closely with a series of several different Admirals serving onboard the Death Star to go over plans for the operation, and on Friday morning gave the final order for members of the 501st Legion (known commonly as "Vader's Fist") to strike.

Kenobi and a group of his followers were eventually captured while fleeing the system, and taken aboard the Death Star, which was in the midst of surveying the recent environmental disaster on Alderaan. Darth Vader called it a “targeted operation,” although officials said four tie fighters were lost because of "mechanical failures" and had to be destroyed to keep them from falling into hostile hands.

In addition to Kenobi, two men and one wookiee were killed, one believed to be his young apprentice and the other two his couriers, according to an admiral who briefed reporters under Imperial ground rules forbidding further identification. A woman was killed when she was used as a shield by a male combatant, the Admiral said. Two droids were also reported missing.

“No Stormtroopers were seriously harmed,” Lord Vader said. “They took care to avoid civilian casualties. After a firefight, I defeated my former master and took custody of his body.” Jedi tradition requires burial within 24 hours, but by doing it in deep space, Imperial authorities presumably were trying to avoid creating a shrine for his followers.

Lord Vader has denied requests to present photographs of the body, describing them as "too gruesome" for the general public.

[atiff]

And since we are moving on to less-than-serious comments ....

I must admit, when I first saw the headline on this thread, I thought it said "Just in: Obama is dead:

[Adm.Lee]

Back in the RW: I just read that the US had 3 (!) carriers on station, on alert, near Pakistan, and at least one battalion of infantry and an unknown number of helicopters on alert in Afghanistan during and immediately after the May 1 raid. Apparently, we weren't going to fool around if the Pakistanis took violent offense at the Abbotabad raid.

[Raellus]

This article answers some of the questions about the operation and why the Blackhawk crashed. Check it out.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110517/...bin_laden_raid

[Legbreaker]

It does indeed explain a lot. Pity it took so long to publish....
Some more suspicious minds may think it took them that long to fabricate.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Sure there are plenty of people out there, possibly even the majority, who don't care a bit about the details, just the result (and many who don't even care about that). However, there's still plenty of people who are intensely interested, such as the Pakistani government, or AQ for example....

Like I stated I am not too interested in the details and those who would be are mighty pissy right now. So why feed the fire when you don't flipping have too.

[Abbott Shaull]

I rather loss a multi-million dollar aircraft than troop who years of training makes them pricesless as far as I am concern.

[Legbreaker]

Well that's just it isn't it. The fire was going burn no matter what, but the way information about the op was released has only fed that fire.
The article Rae linked to should have been produced on day one to have any real chance of cooling things down, not a week plus after the fact. Probably wouldn't have hurt to have a few independant observers around for the burial too.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Well that's just it isn't it. The fire was going burn no matter what, but the way information about the op was released has only fed that fire.
The article Rae linked to should have been produced on day one to have any real chance of cooling things down, not a week plus after the fact. Probably wouldn't have hurt to have a few independant observers around for the burial too.

Yeah probably should of been, would of been, could of been. Yet, much like the previous Administration they only seem to see thing in the political value that things like this gives them.

What is done, is done.

HELL NO, the more people who would of witness the burial at sea would mean someone would of leaked something more to the press. Much like the killing of Saddam and the picture of his sons when they were finally hunted down. There is no reason for public record of this to be given out for several reasons including keeping the people who were part of this operation as nameless faces as much as possible.

[Legbreaker]

I'm not saying photos of the burial should have been released, just that an independant observer or two not part of the US military probably should have been there to confirm that it actually happened.
As it is there's so much room to believe he was taken alive (or at least critically injured) and is currently being held for interrogation. Admittedly, dead he's a martyr, but alive he's an intelligence asset.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

HELL NO, the more people who would of witness the burial at sea would mean someone would of leaked something more to the press.

I'm a bit confused about your position here. Leak what to the press? Any witnesses allowed to talk about it would just be independently confirming what US authorities are already saying, publicly.

What harm could come of allowing independent verification of all the events that the US administration is happily talking about anyway?

[dragoon500ly]

Just one of the problems with an independent witness to OBL's burial is that they would not be believed. Just another American lackey toeing the American line, a traitor to Islam.

Looking over just some of the various websites shows that Arabs have two opinions...so what, nothing has changed and OBL isn't dead.

One of the issues Westerners have with understanding Islam is that, as unbelievers, we are to be killed or enslaved. Islam does not preach mercy, nor does it preach tolerance for other religions. The short form is that any means of killing infidels is a-ok with Allah.

Killing OBL is pure revenge for 9/11. It will not stop terrorist attacks.

[Targan]

Ok, let me put it another way.

Very broadly speaking there are going to be three groups questioning the 'official' version of events.

The first group (probably a very large group) are those that don't have an inherent hatred of the US, are inclined to accept the official version but would like to see some independently verified evidence. I think I can comfortably say that many of the members of this forum (including myself) would fall into this category. Wouldn't take much and we'd happily accept the official line for the most part. And that is a good thing, yeah?

Then there are the conspiracy theorists. Its going to take a lot of work to convince them that things went down as described but some of them could be convinced, once again with some independently verified evidence. The hard core kooks will always suspect something dodgy is going on. Unless they're heavily armed and unusually agitated they can be safely ignored .

Finally there are the mad dog jihadists and various other America-hating groups. Doesn't matter what anyone says, they'll either flat out refuse to believe anything on the 'official' line or twist things to their own ends. Nobody around here is likely to have much sympathy for these nutters. Hopefully they'll at some stage receive the gift of the 'pink mist' and soon be at the right-hand side of their chosen diety.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

One of the issues Westerners have with understanding Islam is that, as unbelievers, we are to be killed or enslaved. Islam does not preach mercy, nor does it preach tolerance for other religions. The short form is that any means of killing infidels is a-ok with Allah.

.

Well there's a typicaly misunderstood view of Islam.

Islam DOES preach mercy and it DOES preach tolerance (well to the Abrahamic faiths at least). Under strict sharia law Christians and Jews are actualy protected, an example of this is in Iran where Christians are given a legal exemption to the law banning alcohol.

In the same way that Christian fundies pervert christian texts, Islamic nutjobs pervert the Koran to justify their political/theological agenda. They conveniantly ignore the parts of their faith that ban their actions.

By buying into the fundie interpretation of Islam you run the risk of assuming all Muslims are the same. The vast majority of muslims just don't give a damn about fundamentalist Jihad, they want to be left alone to live their lives, make a living and support their family just like the rest of us.

Bear in mind these terrorist nutters are killing more muslims than Americans these days in their attacks. They are as muslim as the KKK is Christian.

[headquarters]

My country supports the ongoing military efforts in Afghanistan, Libya and have been involved in Iraq. This is done on ethe basis of our obligation to the legal justification for said actions. Also we are an ally of the US. I support the line we have taken. ( Just saying - I am not on a fact hiding mission for some obscure out of contact with the real world group with this )

What you state about Islam- however - is a matter up for discussion imho - and H means humble in my acronym.

Islam is practised and preached in a variety of ways, and some of them are militant and do indeed teach violence. But there are of course variations to this. So in short I cannot agree to this portrayal of the Islamic religion. The reason I post this is just to show that there are different opinions on this. You are of course entitled to your view as I am mine.

The reason I have for statingthis is that Islam has various factions, and some do indeed preach tolerance and co existence with other religions. Of course - Sunni Wahabism which is on the move - not so much.

Islam has a major problem as long as it is associated with OBL and AQ etc. However - there are some many Moslems ( 1 000 000 000 people app. or roughly 1 / 5 of the world population) that it seems like a reasonable argument that they are not all in favour of subjugating those who are of another faith. I have to say that the Moslems I know have no tolerance for any violence based on religious beliefs.

I realize that this might be a touchy subject - so in conclusion I understand that a lot of people hold a different opinion.

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Just one of the problems with an independent witness to OBL's burial is that they would not be believed. Just another American lackey toeing the American line, a traitor to Islam.

Looking over just some of the various websites shows that Arabs have two opinions...so what, nothing has changed and OBL isn't dead.

One of the issues Westerners have with understanding Islam is that, as unbelievers, we are to be killed or enslaved. Islam does not preach mercy, nor does it preach tolerance for other religions. The short form is that any means of killing infidels is a-ok with Allah.

Killing OBL is pure revenge for 9/11. It will not stop terrorist attacks.