Improvised Armor in T2K

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

Well someone has used an RPG on one of the Narco-tanks. On page 70 there is an Image of what happens when a RPG hits the cab of one of these things.

Narco Armor PDF

thats what I call a kill!

and great resource there

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by Olefin

thats what I call a kill!

and great resource there

Thanks,
I found it when I was researching for a Novel that I am writing that takes place around the El Paso/Juarez region. One of the Protagonists is a former Cartel associate. In doing the research I have found myself looking at some very horrible stuff.

One of the secondary groups is a team of Elite Mercs on loan to Mexican Intelligence.

Basically you have the US and mexican Government on one side, a cartel on the other and the protagonists stuck in the middle.

[Targan]

I'm very much looking forward to seeing Sicario.

[swaghauler]

One area that is often overlooked in Twilight is the effect that ordinary objects like furniture or interior walls have on gunfire or other projectile weapons. I know they have the Armor Values of Common Materials Chart for buildings and structures: but what about that bed or couch you dive behind when ambushed in your own "living room?"

I have a very basic system where I give an object like furniture a "barrier value (represented by a number in brackets like this [#])" from 1 to 10. This number represents the number of POINTS of damage that an object will absorb (as opposed to DICE for armor) from an attack. Penetration effects this number by multiplying it (or dividing it for 1/2 PEN). The object is affected by ALL the damage it absorbs and any excess damage passes through the object to the target. Unlike armor though, the object is visibly harmed by this absorbed damage. I increase the object's wear value each time in absorbs its "barrier value" in damage, and decrease its "barrier value" by one for each absorbed attack (representing the "erosion" of the object by the damage it absorbs). I use this system for some items that Twilight counts as "armored" (such as car doors). This means that while your car door will protect you (at value 8) from incoming fire; It may not work as a door anymore afterwards (or may even be shot up to the point it falls off your car). I was wondering how any of you deal with the "target jumping behind the desk" scenario?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I have to admit to not really thinking about it, other than give furniture etc. etc. a rough Armour Value.
I like your idea however and I think it should be in it's own thread to get some better exploration of the subject.

Originally Posted by swaghauler

One area that is often overlooked in Twilight is the effect that ordinary objects like furniture or interior walls have on gunfire or other projectile weapons. I know they have the Armor Values of Common Materials Chart for buildings and structures: but what about that bed or couch you dive behind when ambushed in your own "living room?"

I have a very basic system where I give an object like furniture a "barrier value (represented by a number in brackets like this [#])" from 1 to 10. This number represents the number of POINTS of damage that an object will absorb (as opposed to DICE for armor) from an attack. Penetration effects this number by multiplying it (or dividing it for 1/2 PEN). The object is affected by ALL the damage it absorbs and any excess damage passes through the object to the target. Unlike armor though, the object is visibly harmed by this absorbed damage. I increase the object's wear value each time in absorbs its "barrier value" in damage, and decrease its "barrier value" by one for each absorbed attack (representing the "erosion" of the object by the damage it absorbs). I use this system for some items that Twilight counts as "armored" (such as car doors). This means that while your car door will protect you (at value 8) from incoming fire; It may not work as a door anymore afterwards (or may even be shot up to the point it falls off your car). I was wondering how any of you deal with the "target jumping behind the desk" scenario?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Olefin

So Paul - how would the Cadillac Gage Ranger (i.e. the Peacekeeper) compare to a typical armored car - are the numbers for the vehicle comparable to what a bank armored car would be?

I have the Ranger set at HF3 HS3 HR3 -- though HS2 might be more proper. A bank armored car would be more like HF2 HS2 HR2 (or maybe only 1).

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I have the Ranger set at HF3 HS3 HR3 -- though HS2 might be more proper. A bank armored car would be more like HF2 HS2 HR2 (or maybe only 1).

I have to say that those armor values seem light to me. Almost every vehicle we had was rated at least NIJ level 3 (rifle) in the body and most were at least NIJ level 3A in the windows (.44 mag/12 gauge slug). I know all of LOOMIS's trucks are Level 3 (rifle). Level 3 (rifle) will stop multiple 5.56N or 7.62mm X 39mm rounds and is also proof against at least 2 .308/7.62mm rounds in the 150 grain/2800 ft per sec power range. That would mean your Level 3 (rifle) armor should be AV 4 for both cargo and crew compartment. an interesting note is that there is no armor on the engine compartment. There are "bullet deflectors" situated around the engine (AV1 Kevlar) but plate makes the hood too heavy and can lead to overheating in hot climates (because the engine cannot breath properly). The push guard seen on some trucks (very prevalent on the smaller 1 ton and 2 1/2 ton trucks) is AV2 rated and bolted to the frame to allow for ramming. Most newer trucks have fire suppression and "overpressure" gas protection (tied into the air conditioning). The vehicles also sport "run flat" tires and self sealing motor oil, coolant, and brake hoses.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

When I get my industrial sewing machine, for making my own tents and other gear, one of the things I wanted to look into is the rolls of Kevlar. Comes in large rolls like other cloth. I haven't seriously looked for sources or costs yet.

Remember that you must seal the Kevlar into some form of watertight container. When Kevlar that is unprotected by laminate (like on the K-pot) or more commonly a waterproof cover (as found on soft body armor) is exposed to moisture (even sweat), it begins to degrade and loses it's protective capability quickly. This is what happened to the Second Chance Monarch NIJ Level 3A vests the PA State Police bought. Replacing 10,000 defective vests forced Second Chance into bankruptcy. Also remember that all soft body armor "degrades" through normal wear. After 5 years of daily use, a vest will no longer be guaranteed to stop its rated threat due to the natural "breakdown" of the fibers caused by your movement. Rounds which penetrate the vest will also destroy the integrity of the fibers as well as making a hole in the waterproof barrier, a "double whammy" to the wearer who may need the vest to hold up for a while under "field conditions."

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I have to admit to not really thinking about it, other than give furniture etc. etc. a rough Armour Value.
I like your idea however and I think it should be in it's own thread to get some better exploration of the subject.

I'll put together a more detailed post as a "stand alone". I also have some rough rules on breaching that fall under a similar mechanic (1 to 10 to breach a door) which could use the input of the forum's collective knowledge.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I have to say that those armor values seem light to me. Almost every vehicle we had was rated at least NIJ level 3 (rifle) in the body and most were at least NIJ level 3A in the windows (.44 mag/12 gauge slug). I know all of LOOMIS's trucks are Level 3 (rifle). Level 3 (rifle) will stop multiple 5.56N or 7.62mm X 39mm rounds and is also proof against at least 2 .308/7.62mm rounds in the 150 grain/2800 ft per sec power range. That would mean your Level 3 (rifle) armor should be AV 4 for both cargo and crew compartment. an interesting note is that there is no armor on the engine compartment. There are "bullet deflectors" situated around the engine (AV1 Kevlar) but plate makes the hood too heavy and can lead to overheating in hot climates (because the engine cannot breath properly). The push guard seen on some trucks (very prevalent on the smaller 1 ton and 2 1/2 ton trucks) is AV2 rated and bolted to the frame to allow for ramming. Most newer trucks have fire suppression and "overpressure" gas protection (tied into the air conditioning). The vehicles also sport "run flat" tires and self sealing motor oil, coolant, and brake hoses.

I likely got that from the canon books. I could jigger it by giving it a radically-sloped front (making it HF6), and the sides are sort of moderately sloped changing it to HS5, (or exactly 4.5). I'd keep the HR at 3.

[rcaf_777]

Some nice makeshift APC

[unkated]

Well, the original Cadillac-Gage Peacekeeper is available in the NATO Vehicle Guide. It's armor is listed as HF 2 HS 1 HR 1.

I find that a little weak if an unarmored car (or humvee) is supposed to have an armor value of 1. Peacekeeper I was armored with 1/4-in (6.3 mm) of steel.

Peacekeeper II has 0.5-in (12.7mm) of steel, and supposedly can stop 7.62mm NATO rounds (NiJ IV). The Lenco Bearcat claims it too has 0.5-in of steel, and that it stops 7.62mm NATO rounds. Armor value 3 all around?

'Normal' (Bank) armored cars seem viable against small arms smaller and weaker than 7.62mm NATO (pistols, 7.62mmS, 5.45mm, normal 5.56mmN)

Uncle Ted

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by unkated

Well, the original Cadillac-Gage Peacekeeper is available in the NATO Vehicle Guide. It's armor is listed as HF 2 HS 1 HR 1.

I find that a little weak if an unarmored car (or humvee) is supposed to have an armor value of 1. Peacekeeper I was armored with 1/4-in (6.3 mm) of steel.

Peacekeeper II has 0.5-in (12.7mm) of steel, and supposedly can stop 7.62mm NATO rounds (NiJ IV). The Lenco Bearcat claims it too has 0.5-in of steel, and that it stops 7.62mm NATO rounds. Armor value 3 all around?

'Normal' (Bank) armored cars seem viable against small arms smaller and weaker than 7.62mm NATO (pistols, 7.62mmS, 5.45mm, normal 5.56mmN)

Uncle Ted

Remember that NIJ Level 3 (rifle) in both soft (Dyneema) and hard (SAPI plates) configurations is rated to stop at least THREE 7.62mm NATO rounds in 150 grain/2800 ft per sec loading. NIJ Level 4 (rifle) is rated to stop at least ONE 3006 Armor Piercing round at 180 grain/2900 ft per sec loading.
This is hard to translate into game terms with the way Penetration works but I would say that NIJ Level 3 (rifle)/SAPI would be worth Armor Value 4 and NIJ Level 4 (Rifle)/ESAPI would be either Armor Value 5 or 6 in game.

[swaghauler]

A prepper named READYMAN just posted a video on Full30.com on how to "up armor" your vehicle in 30 minutes or less. They managed to stop 7.62mm X 39mm rounds with a case of green beans backed by books. It was worth watching.