OT - Bible Verses on Gunsights

[Cdnwolf]

WELLINGTON, New Zealand – Biblical citations inscribed on U.S.-manufactured weapon sights used by New Zealand's troops in Afghanistan will be removed because they are inappropriate and could stoke religious tensions, New Zealand said Thursday.

The inscriptions on products from defense contractor Trijicon of Wixom, Michigan, came to light this week in the U.S. where Army officials said Tuesday they would investigate whether the gun sights — also used by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Iraq — violate U.S. procurement laws.

Australia also said Thursday its military used the sights and was now assessing what to do.

Trijicon said it has had such inscriptions on its products for three decades and has never received complaints about them before. The inscriptions, which don't include actual text from the Bible, refer numerically to passages from the book.

New Zealand defense force spokesman Maj. Kristian Dunne said Trijicon would be instructed to remove the inscriptions from further orders of the gun sights for New Zealand and the letters would be removed from gun sights already in use by troops.

"The inscriptions ... put us in a difficult situation. We were unaware of it and we're unhappy that the manufacturer didn't give us any indication that these were on there," Dunne said. "We deem them to be inappropriate."

The Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight rifle sights used by New Zealand troops, which allow them to pinpoint targets day or night, carried references to Bible verses that appeared in raised lettering at the end of the sight stock number.

Markings included "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

Dunne said New Zealand's defense force has about 260 of the company's gun sights, which were first bought in 2004, and will continue to use them once the inscriptions are removed because they are the best of their kind.

New Zealand Prime Minister John Key said the government was not aware of the inscriptions when the defense force bought the equipment.

"Now we are in discussions with the company in the United States who will ensure the inscriptions are removed, and we wouldn't want them on future sights," he told reporters.

Earlier, Defense Minister Wayne Mapp said with New Zealand soldiers in Muslim countries, the Bible references could be misconstrued.

[copeab]

As someone on another forum asked. does this mean he now has a Holy M4 +1?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

WELLINGTON, New Zealand – Biblical citations inscribed on U.S.-manufactured weapon sights used by New Zealand's troops in Afghanistan will be removed because they are inappropriate

Though I'm an atheist, I must say, with all "due" respect to the higher-ups, that this is a stupid policy. You go to combat, you have so little to hold on to as it is, and strangely enough, the idea that this is stupid is probably the one thing that me and my stepmonster have ever agreed on.

But I like even better some "bibilical"...uhh...improvisations. I was reading a Gun Digest special about Barrett Firearms. They got an M-107 in for refurbishment, and scratched into the inside of the telescopic sight cover was a priceless statement: "O God, forgive me for what I must do, but this asshole must die." The magazine also had a picture -- it's surprising the author had enough room to scratch all that inside the lens cover.

[Targan]

I'm amazed. Bad enough to have religious icons and/or texts in Courts and places of government (which I vehemently oppose) but to put references to a religious text on a gunsight? Ridiculous. Religion is a private matter. I have no problem with people practising their faith in private settings but (and forgive me if this sentiment offends anyone) proselytization sucks.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by copeab

As someone on another forum asked. does this mean he now has a Holy M4 +1?

Don't forget the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

I'm amazed. Bad enough to have religious icons and/or texts in Courts and places of government (which I vehemently oppose) but to put references to a religious text on a gunsight? Ridiculous. Religion is a private matter. I have no problem with people practising their faith in private settings but (and forgive me if this sentiment offends anyone) proselytization sucks.

It may be because I'm an atheist that such a thing doesn't strike me as sacrilegious. Sacrilege is putting ice cubes into root beer!

In Desert Storm, my M-16 had a piece of duct tape on the right side of the stock with the name of a college girlfriend. Had sort of a double meaning...

As far as proselytizing, I agree with George Carlin: "Keep thine own religion to thyself." So I don't have a problem with troops putting such phrases on their own equipment, but keep it out of the government, and don't tell me my non-religious beliefs are wrong. (I actually had a first sergeant once who gave me pushups every time I saw him because I was an atheist. The Chaplain saw him do that once and read him the riot act, and I never had that problem again.)

[Legbreaker]

As yet another Atheist, I agree that there is no place for institutionalised religion and therefore issue items should NOT come premarked.

What an individual thinks, feels and does is up to them but to essentially force anyone into carrying another persons beliefs...? That's just not on.

[headquarters]

its war.people are being killed .I should think the extra numbers and letters on the ACOG was less of a moral conundrum than the actual taking of human life.

But in the face of the inhumanity of humanity its regularily the escape of the mind to discuss the way people are being killed rather than resist the thoughts that allow acceptance of killing .

But when that is said - I have a few ranty remarks :

The New Zealand dept of defense is saying that they are removing the bible verses but keeping the ACOGs as they are the best there is .

Are they really ?

better than Aimpoint Comp4 ? better than Elcan Spectre 1-4X35 mm red dot ( yeah -it is a fully variable sight from zero magnification to 4x by the flick of a switch-pretty awesome imho ) .No "sweetspot" ,no eye relief issues ,but still with a very useful magnification feature .

(admittedly - I do not own one .Maybe if preices are lowered and some restrictions lifted...)

I know the ACOG uses a tritium bladiblah so that no battery is needed to show the reticle ( where as the Aimpoint 4 only has a mere 6 year lifespan if you should happen to leave it in the gunsafe on "on" -thats one battery people)

The tritium in the ACOG will wear out .For the aimpoint -batteries will be produced in all Merc2000 settings ,but maybe not in most T2K settings..You could maybe recharge some AA batteries with some GMs...

I am not an atheist .I just do not believe in organized religion .

I do own a bunch of other redpoints including the Aimpoint Comp4 - that is great piece of kit right there .

[Cdnwolf]

All you aethist are going to hell.... I will meet you down there and buy you a drink!! LOL. Now if they inscribe something like "Kill em all and let god sort it out" then I would have no problem with it.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Actually its not the government that puts those on the sights. Its the private company that manufactures them that does it, and has been doing it for several years.. almost or near three years if I remember correctly. Its not like the government said "hey put some bible verses on those things for us."

And My words for it are "Big WOOP Tee Doo!"

Hell my guess is the guys that complained about it were probably carrying the damn things for a while before they noticed it. They strike me as just wanting something more to bitch about.

I'm not a bible thumping nut job. But I believe there is some kind of higher power, even though I got plenty of good reasons not too. But I have noticed that people tend to pick on one or two particular religions. Neither being the one that is the dangerous and really full of extreme whacked out crazy's that their minds are still stuck in the middle ages. Any religion that presently believes that I should convert or die and would kill me because it is OK to do so is one that does not deserve to be. But one that says that if i do not convert I'm going to hell.... bahh i just ignore them cause i can.

I mean I got this guy I work with that is or was a real real and I mean real old testament worshiper. Kind of cultist like. But I just accepted that's what he believes in and he eventually saw that I did not believe as he did. Right now because I was not confrontational and actually quite rational about our differences, he has tamed quite a bit. We are actually quite good friends now. Even though we are differing in religious beliefs. He still occasionally wants me to go to services with him, but i still decline (politely).

So if some one want to put Christian verses that I don't believe in on stuff. Let them, I don't have to buy them or posses them. I still will if I like the object, even though I may not believe in what is on them, because I know or at least I think I know what I truly believe.

Its just that I see one religion like Christianity being treated like the plague when its generally active/passive in its approach, and the other Muslim is treated with kid gloves, even though certain elements of it are in a Crusade to wipe out all non believers and take over the world by force of terror as just pure hypocrisy and misguided. I would someday like to see the atheists put as much effort into criticizing or lambasting the truly dangerous religion out there.

Sorry bout the rant. It just gets me that we worry about something that people worry about that they don't believe in. I mean if a true atheist does not believe in god then isn't anything about the god meaningless? So then the letters numbers that those are complaining about are just meaningless?

By the way these opinions and commentary in no way reflect the members of this site or the purpose of this site. Merely just a rant as I occasionally tend to do.

[Legbreaker]

A true atheist here.

I see all religions in the same light. Some as mentioned are more dangerous than others, but all have some very serious nutters amongst their members.

Religion is though first and formost a personal thing. A group whether they be a religion, cult, company, government, or whatever should not routinely place their mark on items intended for general use by those not of their world view ESPECIALLY if it's not been made public knowledge. The sights mentioned are a case in point.

[Targan]

Ditto everything Legbreaker wrote in his last post.

[kato13]

That fact that this has been out there unnoticed for 6 years (in an age of instant world wide communication) means this really is not a huge deal.

I am a lifetime (kicked out of the cub scouts for it) atheist but this does not bother me at all. If I was in combat and I felt these scopes would increase my safety or killing power I would not care if my scope had bible quotes, fuzzy bunnies, Santa Clause or even a naked man on it. Combat is about efficiency in protecting your own and inflicting death on the enemy not about being PC.

In truth it is the DoD's fault for not putting a requirement in the specs. The US army requirement specs for a new "cake, brownie" was over 44 pages long, so it is not like they don't over think these things.

I know someone will say this will enrage radical Muslims, but seriously what doesn't enrage them. OBL biggest complaint before 9/11 was US troops in the Muslim holy land (Saudia Arabia). Guess what they are out now and you know what he is more enraged and just finds new things to complain about. I actually think bending over backwards not to offend encourages Islamasists.

The company has voluntarily agreed to remove these from future production and to provide free modifications to remove the references from existing stocks, so again not an issue.

Still a little disappointed they didn't have Ezekiel 25:17.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

All you aethist are going to hell.... I will meet you down there and buy you a drink!! LOL. Now if they inscribe something like "Kill em all and let god sort it out" then I would have no problem with it.

Is there Pepsi in Hell?

[headquarters]

half and half ? Quran on one side and bible on the other ?

both have those nifty little reference codes.

I wish we could win the war of terror already - I am getting anxious to see the next one already!!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I wish we could win the war of terror already - I am getting anxious to see the next one already!!

Unfortunately, I'm quite sure you'll get your wish way too soon. Veterans of this board know I think the world is heading into a real-life T2K scenario.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Is there Pepsi in Hell?

Given that it's the second most disgusting name-brand soda I've ever had, I would imagine so.



(Most disgusting being Diet Pepsi.)

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by copeab

(Most disgusting being Diet Pepsi.)

Hey, I resemble that remark!

[Grimace]

Yeah, this is the case of a few uppity people who've got nothing better to do deciding that bible verses on sites will be the end of "peaceful" civilization in the Middle East as we know it. C'mon...WTF!

Read the article...3 DECADES these verses were on their items! 30 YEARS!

Don't tell me this is the first time anyone has noticed the numbers on things in 30 years time. This is just ridiculous, wasteful and stupid.

And if you don't want a bible verse...don't look it up. It's a number. Only turns to words if you open a bible and read the verse. Only people who care about it would do that...or some idiot who just wants to do it to complain about it.

Atheist or not, this is a waste of time and resources for something that's never been an issue before and really isn't an issue for a vast majority of people using the sites.

As Cpl. Kalkwarf pointed out, this comes from a private company. They can put whatever they want on the site. Their right to do it. Now if the government later decides to cut off it's nose to spite it's face, then more power to it. Part of me wishes that Trijicon would have just told them to stuff it.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm thinking of this thread, and of the scene in Red Dawn where Robert is marking the stock of his AK with kill marks...and thinking, this would be another good flavoring detail for GMs or players to use.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Grimace

And if you don't want a bible verse...don't look it up. It's a number. Only turns to words if you open a bible and read the verse. Only people who care about it would do that...or some idiot who just wants to do it to complain about it.

See my post below -- the thread is not entirely wasted.

But with your comment I cited, I'm reminded of a practice that author Richard Bach uses -- if you can't think of an answer to a question or you need a good thought for your situation, just pick up any book, randomly open it to a page, and read the first sentence you see. And it actually does work sometimes!

[copeab]

Originally Posted by kato13

Still a little disappointed they didn't have Ezekiel 25:17.

And with a little button to play Samuel L. Jackson reading it.

[weswood]

Speaking for Christians, I'm clinging to my Bible and my gun, and I don't care if my fancy sights have bible verses on them....unless they help me aim better!

[copeab]

Perhaps the inscriptions should reference Ezekiel 23:20 instead.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by copeab

And with a little button to play Samuel L. Jackson reading it.

Now that's an idea! A little MP3 player embedded in a weapon to play music to fight by!

[Legbreaker]

Well the Israelis already have that nifty bottle opener...
Now thats exactly what every soldier needs after a long hard day on the front - something to open the beer!

:P

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Is there Pepsi in Hell?

no, only generic crappy cola, its hell after all.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by Grimace

Yeah, this is the case of a few uppity people who've got nothing better to do deciding that bible verses on sites will be the end of "peaceful" civilization in the Middle East as we know it. C'mon...WTF!

Read the article...3 DECADES these verses were on their items! 30 YEARS!

Don't tell me this is the first time anyone has noticed the numbers on things in 30 years time. This is just ridiculous, wasteful and stupid.

And if you don't want a bible verse...don't look it up. It's a number. Only turns to words if you open a bible and read the verse. Only people who care about it would do that...or some idiot who just wants to do it to complain about it.

Atheist or not, this is a waste of time and resources for something that's never been an issue before and really isn't an issue for a vast majority of people using the sites.

As Cpl. Kalkwarf pointed out, this comes from a private company. They can put whatever they want on the site. Their right to do it. Now if the government later decides to cut off it's nose to spite it's face, then more power to it. Part of me wishes that Trijicon would have just told them to stuff it.

kinda like Barrett did to Kalifornia. Man that was cool.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Cpl. Kalkwarf

no, only generic crappy cola, its hell after all.

I just had this image of a label on a can in Hell -- "Cola -- and it's crap, too!"

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Originally Posted by copeab

Given that it's the second most disgusting name-brand soda I've ever had, I would imagine so.



(Most disgusting being Diet Pepsi.)

have to disagree, I don't mind Pepsi. Now the Diet part..... Diet anything. Heck the changed the chemical replacement of sugar again and we still don't know the long term effects of it. A friend of mine had been Hooked on Diet coke like millions are, but started having problems. He went to the doc and found out that it was the diet coke. He asked the doc if he would have to quit any sodas, and the doc said no, just diet. But he should not drink as much of the regular stuff either. So now my friend drinks regular coke now in moderation and is fine.

If I remember correctly the stuff they are presently using was really really bad for us many years back according to the food and drug guys, but it seems some corporate hack paid off enough people to get it too be OK-ed.

So i guess hell has nothing but diet crap now, damn...... (pun intended)