SOF: Most Elite

[Raellus]

Polls are fun and this subject always seems to lead to interesting and spirited debate. So, which special operations force do you think is the most elite? Please justify your response in the thread.

NOTE: Please don't be offended if I left out the SOF closest to your heart. Space was limited and there are a lot of special operations forces out there. I couldn't include them all. I know the U.S. listing is the largest but they are also fairly well known around the world.

[kato13]

Close call between SAS, SEALs and Delta, but I went with Delta. I expect Delta spares no expense in training which overshadows slight advantages in SAS tactics and SEAL determination. All IMHO of course.

[Frank Frey]

In honor of my stepfather who was a US Army Ranger from 1942-1944 (when he was wounded during the Huertegen Forest Campaign)
"RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!"

Out Here
Frank Frey

[TiggerCCW UK]

Given my small link to the Royal Marines (I was a cadet with them for 7 years, and a cadet instructor for a further 2) I went with SBS. They aren't so well known, but I reckon they're as good as, if not better than any other unit on the list.

[Raellus]

I'm voting USAF PJs. Their selection program has the highest dropout rate in the U.S. military (something like 90%). They all have to learn trauma aid as well as SF-style combat tactics, parachute insertion, FAC, combat swimming, etc. I don't think they get the same glory because their primary mission is saving lives as opposed to taking them- a sad observation about human nature.

The fact that they are not as well known as most other SOF of the world's major players also gives them some cool points, IMHO. In all of the T2K games I've played or lurked in (or the one I run), I've encountered PCs from just about every SOF on the poll list. I have never run across a USAF PJ. My next American PC will probably be a PJ.

For me, as far as "elite" status goes, the SEALs take second, followed by the SBS.

I've been really into Rangers since I was in the 6th grade. They may not be quite as "elite", but they are definitely just as cool.

Delta is too shadowy and I get the impression that they are CQB/hostage rescue specialists and not very well suited to operating in non-urban environments.

Spetznaz is pretty cool (and scary when I was a kid) but it seems that they invest too much training time into learning how to break bottles and 2x4s on their heads. Impressive or dumb? Hmm.

[Webstral]

USAF operators are a special crew. It does seem to me like your assessment is pretty on-target, Raellus. We'd give the rescue guys more credit if they were slitting throats. Kevin Costner's character observes in The Guardian that the Navy "...thinks they're better than us [USCG rescue swimmers] because they're combat oriented."

Although class has taken up my time lately, I've been using my time in the car to ponder covering some of New Mexico's Twilight: 2000 history. There's more to the story than just the withdrawal of the School Brigade from Fort Bliss. In particular, I think some exciting options are available for the USAF Special Operations types based outside Albuquerque.

As for the Rangers, who I hold in very high esteem, I'm going to stick with the guidance given me by my first NCO mentor, who had been a Ranger back in the day: "A Ranger is nothing more and nothing less than what every infantryman ought to be."

Webstral

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I find the list a little too varied, for example GIGN and GSG-9 are specialist police units that deal with counter-terrorism and high threat crime so they are more of an uber-SWAT team than they are a special forces team. Marine recon and Army rangers are certainly elite infantry but they are not special forces. The Foreign Legion again I would call an elite force but not special forces, they have their own special forces within the Legion.
Personally I would be inclined to select the USAF ParaJumpers from the list but I have always admired the Rhodesian Selous Scouts so I'm going with 'Other'.

[kota1342000]

Moot question. Most of the groups listed have different types of missions. I declare no force is any better than the others, though I have to admit that I hate inter-service rivalry with a passion.

[Raellus]

It's just for fun, guys. Polls have a limit of 20 choices and I didn't want to be accused of deliberately leaving anyone off of the list. If I put UK Paras on there, then I'd have to put other airborne forces. The FFL have several smaller SOF components but I used the catch-all instead. It's not perfect, admittedly.

Selous Scouts is a very good "other", I must say.

[Snake Eyes]

USAF Pararescue, hands down. Delta probably gets a nod at being high-speed, low-drag bad-asses, but they pretty much owe their origins to the British SAS who in turn (at least according to the internet) clean up as the most historically successful operators worldwide. I concur with SSC that the list isn't wholly an apples-to-apples role comparison, but for "most elite" I'm going with Pararescue anyway for all the reasons already cited by Rae and Web.

I have been fascinated with PJ's since the first time I saw Airport '75 and let my father convince me that the whole helicopter-to-747 rescue maneuver was possible and there were guys who actually got to do that stuff for real. Plus, on top of everything else, they got to pick up astronauts after splashdown and how cool is that? Pararescue is always my first choice to play as a PC unless the group already has a medic, in which case I'd fall back to a CCT (who are also pretty slick) unless the GM has some kind of anti-SOF bias.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Personally I would be inclined to select the USAF ParaJumpers from the list but I have always admired the Rhodesian Selous Scouts so I'm going with 'Other'.

Good "other"! I have taken great interest in the Rhodesian war over the past couple of years. There is so much for us to learn from the experience of the Rhodesians. The Rhodesians are proof that excellence in motivation and training can overcome many material deficits. They are also proof that counter-insurgencies cannot be won on the battlefield alone, no matter how well-fought. Sooner or later, economic and political arrangements become paramount.

Ironically, highly-trained soldiers offer politicians a reason not to avoid bloodshed. "If the troops can kill enough of the enemy, I won't have to convince the major players that they will have to give up something to get peace..."

Webstral

[Matt Wiser]

SEALs, hands down. For pure SOF, they can do it all, pretty much. And for a Naval outfit, they've been in some pretty landlocked places like Iraq and Afghanistan (two MOHs won in A-Stan, and a third in Iraq, all posthemously). But I'll also add the AF PJs (and the Combat Control Teams) as well. The PJs' job is getting in and rescuing downed aircrew or others in need of rescue in hostile territory, and the CCTs go in with other SOF types to call in air strikes and other support. (usually of the AC-130 and extraction helo type)

[headquarters]

whats most elite anyways?.

hardest selection /highest drop out rate during selection and training?

actual combat time/terms under fire ?
( some units here see little combat ,some alot )

succesful mission ratio ?

Just asking .In some caces Special Forces just means the above average trained guys you send out whithout qualms about casualties to get the job done.In other cases they are educated to an extreme level in several fields.

I have a suggestion for "other " -Brazillian Military Police Special operations units . ( B.O.P.E) .
A movie was made about them ( tropa de elite -cracking good btw ),their training and their operations.Constant policing action/counterinsurgency operations in the Favelas.The enemy were teens with automatic weapons operating like a guerilla army to protect drug turf.

All Special forces units tend to claim they are the best - or they wouldnt be very special would they ? But I have noticed a tendency to lok to the SAS when tactics and techniques are being developed.

Question for you Anglos/Commonwealthers out there: the AUS/NZ SAS and the GBR SAS - same training etc ? Can Commonwealthers serve in eachothers armies etc ?

[TiggerCCW UK]

PJ's are an impressive unit. Has anyone read 'That others may live' by SMSGT Jack Brehm? Great read, and the only book I've ever come across about the PJ's.

[sglancy12]

I can't answer this poll because the term "elite" is so nebulously defined in this context that it is essentially meaningless.


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Canadian Army]

My Vote and choice is for The Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) (French: Régiment d'opérations spéciales du Canada; ROSC), but if it could be any unit in history that I could vote for it would be 1st Special Service Force, The Devil's Brigade.

[Targan]

I would have bundled the Aussie and Kiwi SAS together on the poll - they regularly not only train together but also fight together. It is rare for the Kiwi SAS to be deployed overseas where the Aussie SAS are not operating.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Question for you Anglos/Commonwealthers out there: the AUS/NZ SAS and the GBR SAS - same training etc ? Can Commonwealthers serve in eachothers armies etc ?

Very similar training but modified to suit local conditions, e.g. the Australian SAS spend more time in desert training than the UK SAS because it's a significant portion of the terrain they have to operate in.
There is lots of cross-training between the three SAS units and a long history of Australian, New Zealand, South African, Canadian, Rhodesian, Fijian and so on military personnel serving either as individuals signing up to serve in British units or entire units serving within the British military structure like a couple of RAAF units that served in Coastal Command and Bomber Command during WW2 who flew RAF planes.

There is also a history of New Zealand units working within the Australian military structure like various infantry and artillery detachments serving within Australian units during the Vietnam War.
The father of one of my friends (Australian Army) was scheduled to serve with BAOR as a part of their Signals unit during the late 1970s but something happened and he wasn't able to go.

[ex3313]

Of note the seal/udt recover the astronauts not pj's

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Targan

I would have bundled the Aussie and Kiwi SAS together on the poll - they regularly not only train together but also fight together. It is rare for the Kiwi SAS to be deployed overseas where the Aussie SAS are not operating.

I specifically didn't lump them together because I didn't want to offend any of our Aussie or Kiwi members.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by sglancy12

I can't answer this poll because the term "elite" is so nebulously defined in this context that it is essentially meaningless.

Perhaps some possible interpretations of the term "elite" might help guide the poll?

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Perhaps some possible interpretations of the term "elite" might help guide the poll?

Webstral

Of course, anyone who is in the military and really has the "military bug" thinks that they are the most elite...

[pmulcahy11b]

In the US, SOCOM has become a virtual sixth branch of the military. They tend to mix and match their units -- nominally, you may be a SEAL, Delta, Ranger, SF, etc, but these units inter-operate so much that they are more like simply "SOCOM."

[mikeo80]

In my very humble opinion, Isreal's Mossad is the best SOF. Get in, get out, get the job done.

This may not fit , cause Mossad is also Intelegence gathering and other duties as assigned.

[jester]

I vote for Larry the Cable Guy and his elite team of fighters ala Delta Farce!


Elite, again we should define elite? Combat monsters, CQB kings, folks who can get in, not get detected and back to the LZ with the package or data? Since their job is not to engage directly <ala Air Force Para Rescuemen <tried to be one once, and I love playing them!> Combat weathermen, or FACs or Anglico>

Guys who can go in and then stir the shit by riging the enemys area to blow?

Guys who can infiltrate and plan a raid to destroy the target?

Snipers? They move in and engage.

We need to define the task, as none of the above is a one group fits all. Can they do all tasks, probably but with varied results as to the task they are assigned.

Seals, cool for working around bodies of water and usualy for short durration ops.

Rangers, they take down airports well! <Then why did they use a platoon or company of SEALS on an airport, when Rangers could have done it as that is what they do?>

It all depends on the task, and the units focus.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Stressing the definition of elite is completely irrelevant, everyone knows what it means and that should obviously be the easier part of the question to understand. The original question is which special forces unit do you consider the most elite and so if anything needs defining it is what is a special forces unit.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Stressing the definition of elite is completely irrelevant, everyone knows what it means and that should obviously be the easier part of the question to understand. The original question is which special forces unit do you consider the most elite and so if anything needs defining it is what is a special forces unit.

I think our varied answers indicate our own varying definitions of elite. Nothing wrong with that since this poll helps us understand what those definitions are.

[Dog 6]

infantry bah, just a crunchy to me

[Adm.Lee]

I am reminded of a line from a story long ago.

"We're under attack! It must be the American Delta Force!"
"How can you tell?"
"Well, if it were the SAS, we'd be dead already; and if it were the Israelis, we still wouldn't know about it."

[jester]

BS!!!!!!

Elite:

The Spectre Gunship Crews are considered ELITE in the AF

Submariners are considered ELITE in the Navy

So, defining elite, or the criteria is important! Or at least the objective will determine the whole "eliteness" of the organization.

Are we going with prolonged ground combat?

Anything prolonged then we need to eliminate the SEALS, the Delta and others. As most are mission orientated and not trained or geared for long term operations.

SF, they can go bye bye! As their mission is counter insurgency and working with locals. Kinda like "The Peace Corps" but with guns

Snipers, eliminate, they are single mission orientated.

Any of the Air Force types GONE!!! Again specific mission objectives and they are not designed for combat.

If its get in and get out without engaging then some of the above units are good, if its get in and attack different storey. And then if its sustained attack or combat operations then its something else.