US Army Enlisted Ranks & Length of Service

[Mahatatain]

I'm just working out some NPCs and I just wanted to check that I understand how the enlisted ranks of Private E-1 (PVT), Private E-2 (PV2) and Private First Class (PFC) work in reality in the US Army.

Am I correct in thinking that promotion to PFC is automatic after about 6 months of service?

Assuming that I'm correct then I also assume that almost all Privates will have been promoted to the rank of PFC by the time a T2K campaign set in the year 2000 starts?

Also, purely for my own personal interest, what is the difference between Private E-1 (PVT) and Private E-2 (PV2)? Is a recruit in basic training an E-1 and they become an E-2 after they have passed basic training?

Thanks for any help.

PS - I'm British by the way which is why I'm asking these questions.

[Dog 6]

"Is a recruit in basic training an E-1 and they become an E-2 after they have passed basic training?"

yes

[Eddie]

You're close but not quite there.

I'm going to tackle them out of order...

First, there is no difference between E-1 and E-2 other than pay and E-2 has one stripe. In an absolute worst case scenario, the E-2 would outrank the E-1, but that's like being 10 minutes older than a twin sibling.

Next, promotion to E-2 is automatic after six months. E-3 follows at I believe 12 months, then E-4 at 24 months.

[HorseSoldier]

That sounds right. A waiver cutting the time requirement in half is possible for guys who merit it. For NPCs also consider downward mobility. Demotions happen from time to time and would be more common in the Twilight War, for various reasons.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

"Is a recruit in basic training an E-1 and they become an E-2 after they have passed basic training?"

yes

This is not automatic in the Army. You'll get E-1 PVTs arriving to their units still E-1 quite frequently. Usually only the guys that have long AITs show up to their units with E-2 in hand if they didn't get some kind of early promotion through other means.

Keep in mind, the Army has many ways to get promotions before ever leaving home for Basic Training. If you get two buddies to enlist, you get E2 (that's what I did). If you were an Eagle Scout or were in Civil Air Patrol and took the Eddie Rickenbacker test (and passed it) you get E3. If you have a Bachelor's Degree but don't want to be an officer, you get automatic E4. If you were prior service, you'll usually go down one rank from your last pay grade in your first service. I'm sure there are some things I'm missing. But this gives you a means of justifying lots of different ranks between E-1 and E-4.

[Mahatatain]

Thanks for the info - all very interesting.

What this means (in terms of T2k) though is that if I have an NPC who's been involved in the NATO drive into Poland in the year 2000 and isn't a completely fresh recruit then they are likely to have gained promotion to PFC by that time? Does that make sense?

Thanks.

[jester]

And lets not forget special promotions, meritorious promotions and through review boards.

And of course as an old freind says,

"PFC second award." Some older hands could be to set in their ways and be on their second or even third award as a PFCs or Pvt.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

"PFC second award." Some older hands could be to set in their ways and be on their second or even third award as a PFCs or Pvt.

Or a guy I knew at Ft. Stewart who had gotten busted down to E-1 so many times that he sewed blank patches on his collar (at the time, US Army rank was worn on the collar).

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

Thanks for the info - all very interesting.

What this means (in terms of T2k) though is that if I have an NPC who's been involved in the NATO drive into Poland in the year 2000 and isn't a completely fresh recruit then they are likely to have gained promotion to PFC by that time? Does that make sense?

Thanks.

For reference, in Iraq, one of my Corporals (E-4) was promoted to Sergeant and Staff Sergeant in a fifteen month period.

In a war like WWIII? He could have made Colonel, I'm sure. So to be promoted just to PFC is hard to fathom in my opinion, but definitely plausible.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by jester

And lets not forget special promotions, meritorious promotions and through review boards.

These are more a thing of the past in the Army. The brigade I'm going to when I leave here just promoted 8 soldiers through "battlefield promotions."

It was a few receiving E-4s, 2 E-5s, and an E-5 to E-6. It looked more like a publicity stunt than anything else.

Brevet ranks, battlefield commissions, all of that stuff...they're really not part of the Army. I've never seen any brevets and I've only heard of one battlefield commission being given (and that was to a Delta operator that wound up in my Career Course class).

Early promotions have special conditions, but even those are standardized to a bureaucratic extent that take the "special" out of the special conditions. Things like "18 months time-in-grade, waiverable to [8/10/12/whatever] months."

However, like I said, I know that one dude...so it does still happen from time to time. As a GM, I don't think I'd allow it unless the player did a lot of work on his background and I definitely wouldn't use it for an NPC, even one that was meant to stand out. That seems like something that should definitely be reserved for players (but like I said, who've done a lot of work on their background).

[HorseSoldier]

Post-nuke the bureaucratic niceties will tend to be mostly out the window and I would think that in most units the promotion process would become decidedly irregular by modern standards.

Battlefield commissions might make a strong comeback. If not, I think you'd see dividional or corps OCS courses set up to put an official blessing on the de facto reality. Without a steady supply of replacement personnel from CONUS, which doesn't exist circa 2000, the US military in Europe would have to look inward for any replacement junior officers anyway. They'll either end up commissioning proven NCOs, or they'll have proven NCOs doing officer's jobs without the benefit of the rank (which can work in a pinch for a platoon leader, but much higher up the food chain and it gets problematic).

For enlisted promotions, I suspect by 2000 it just boils down to the unit commander and some key subordinates having a huddle and deciding who they want to advance to fill an NCO leadership position. Issues like points, time in service, and actually being MOS qualified for the job by 2000 are going to take a backseat to demonstrated ability to deal with the requirements of soldiering in the year 2000.

At the same time, I could also see a lot of stagnation for others in the system. By Y2K, the US military "up or out" system is going to be a thing of the past, and some guys may end up being career privates, particularly if they have behavior issues off duty/in garrison and such.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Post-nuke the bureaucratic niceties will tend to be mostly out the window and I would think that in most units the promotion process would become decidedly irregular by modern standards.

Battlefield commissions might make a strong comeback. If not, I think you'd see dividional or corps OCS courses set up to put an official blessing on the de facto reality. Without a steady supply of replacement personnel from CONUS, which doesn't exist circa 2000, the US military in Europe would have to look inward for any replacement junior officers anyway. They'll either end up commissioning proven NCOs, or they'll have proven NCOs doing officer's jobs without the benefit of the rank (which can work in a pinch for a platoon leader, but much higher up the food chain and it gets problematic).

For enlisted promotions, I suspect by 2000 it just boils down to the unit commander and some key subordinates having a huddle and deciding who they want to advance to fill an NCO leadership position. Issues like points, time in service, and actually being MOS qualified for the job by 2000 are going to take a backseat to demonstrated ability to deal with the requirements of soldiering in the year 2000.

At the same time, I could also see a lot of stagnation for others in the system. By Y2K, the US military "up or out" system is going to be a thing of the past, and some guys may end up being career privates, particularly if they have behavior issues off duty/in garrison and such.

I agree with everything here. Later in the war, I think the army would make increasing use of beached Naval and grounded Air Force officers. I don't think it would be uncommon to find a platoon led my a former Navy lieutenant or a a former AF captain acting as XO of a rifle company. I also think you'd see a overall reduction in staff officer positions as they would eventually find their way to line units.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Post-nuke the bureaucratic niceties will tend to be mostly out the window and I would think that in most units the promotion process would become decidedly irregular by modern standards.

I don't know. I think it could go the exact opposite where those in charge try to hold on to every aspect of "normalcy" that they can in the face of nuclear war. I've ran both types of settings in my campaigns in the past. Some were fun, others weren't, but the group dynamic is the important part.

Without a steady supply of replacement personnel from CONUS, which doesn't exist circa 2000, the US military in Europe would have to look inward for any replacement junior officers anyway. They'll either end up commissioning proven NCOs, or they'll have proven NCOs doing officer's jobs without the benefit of the rank (which can work in a pinch for a platoon leader, but much higher up the food chain and it gets problematic).

I think it would be the latter here. OCSs aren't something that they can just throw up anywhere due to Congressional constraints. As ties back to the US get strained and the real government splits into its various factions, I think direct commissioning would become more utilized. The officer corps as it is has a strong jump in with both feet and sink or swim mentality where professional development is concerned.

I think NCOs would just be given the jobs without the benefit of the rank, though. The precedent already exists and the confidence in the NCO corp is too strong. The common thought processes are that NCOs are technically capable in most aspects other than doctrine and Powerpoint. Those tend to be the realm of the O's while techniques and procedures fall to the NCOs. This is what I would see utilized more in the Twilight War, Techniques and Procedures and less Tactics, as one of my old platoon sergeants used to delineate them.

For enlisted promotions, I suspect by 2000 it just boils down to the unit commander and some key subordinates having a huddle and deciding who they want to advance to fill an NCO leadership position. Issues like points, time in service, and actually being MOS qualified for the job by 2000 are going to take a backseat to demonstrated ability to deal with the requirements of soldiering in the year 2000.

Agreed.

At the same time, I could also see a lot of stagnation for others in the system. By Y2K, the US military "up or out" system is going to be a thing of the past, and some guys may end up being career privates, particularly if they have behavior issues off duty/in garrison and such.

Agreed again. There will always be a need for more Privates through Specialist than any other rank.

[jester]

Here is something to consider since the bureacracy was brought up.

How often does paperwork get lost or just slow in working its way through channels?

Now apply this to some of the more recently arrived troops in theater. Once the nukes started flying, communication got messed up, and troops were shuffled from one unit to another as stragglers or to fill in the gaps and now, there is no telling where their parent unit is. Or, Pvt Schmukatelli is with the 5th in Poland when he was with the 14th who is now in Yugoslavia, or even Iran, and they have his promotion warrant, but the folks in the 5th know nothing about it. So, he is still a Pvt as far as they are concerned and he knows.

After all, alot of the promotion records would be dust, or so far removed and it really would not be a major priority with the remaining and limited communications lines and abilities. Heck, I had it happen to me twice in peacetime when the entire system was up and running, so my view is, it would be pretty common in 2000 or 2013 <for you guys playing the newer version>

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by jester

Here is something to consider since the bureacracy was brought up.

How often does paperwork get lost or just slow in working its way through channels?

Oh, definitely. I had a guy up for E-4 that I was delaying as his company commander to give the platoon leadership time to build his chapter packet and get him kicked out of the Army. Conversely, I also hand carried another guy's promotion packet to the Battalion Commander because the PAC Office (Personnel Assistance Center - secretarial pool in uniform basically) had lost the stuff three times.

Now apply this to some of the more recently arrived troops in theater. Once the nukes started flying, communication got messed up, and troops were shuffled from one unit to another as stragglers or to fill in the gaps and now, there is no telling where their parent unit is. Or, Pvt Schmukatelli is with the 5th in Poland when he was with the 14th who is now in Yugoslavia, or even Iran, and they have his promotion warrant, but the folks in the 5th know nothing about it. So, he is still a Pvt as far as they are concerned and he knows.

After all, alot of the promotion records would be dust, or so far removed and it really would not be a major priority with the remaining and limited communications lines and abilities. Heck, I had it happen to me twice in peacetime when the entire system was up and running, so my view is, it would be pretty common in 2000 or 2013 <for you guys playing the newer version>

Another viewpoint that hasn't been mentioned yet, is the relevance of these promotions, especially in a combat zone with no PXs/Burger Kings/Green Beans. Being a PVT vs. PV2 vs. PFC really doesn't mean a whole lot. Even Spec 4 doesn't mean a whole lot more unless you get put in a Team Leader slot. The only time the differences would really matter would be on Paydays.

They'd all still get picked for the same details. They'd get the same positions in a squad. They'd get shot at just the same.

For another perspective for you that haven't been in the military and just see higher ranks, putting one of these kids in charge is typically like leaving your three year old in charge of your two year old and 18-month old. And maybe the neighbors three year old as well. It's not say that there isn't some talent individually, but in a group, Joe without leadership is generally not good. (Which is a reflection of people in general, but it seems to apply moreso with over-testosteroned, first-time-away-from-mom-and-dad, more-money-than-they've-had-before young men.)

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

How often does paperwork get lost or just slow in working its way through channels?

It's not promotion paperwork, but when I was in, medical records and certification paperwork (such as marksmanship paperwork, skills testing, and PT tests -- all of which can affect promotion) were notorious for disappearing. My medical records disappeared three times when I was at Bragg.

[jester]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It's not promotion paperwork, but when I was in, medical records and certification paperwork (such as marksmanship paperwork, skills testing, and PT tests -- all of which can affect promotion) were notorious for disappearing. My medical records disappeared three times when I was at Bragg.

Ah! A game of top that!

My medical records were "lost" for a "medboard" for three years. As I was shuttled from unit to unit to unit. It turns out my parent unit had them in a drawer but they were doing the UDP and I was here, there everywhere.

Rifle scores, yep! PFT, same same. It was funny, I wasn't allowed to qual on the range, but I was required to coach, never understood that logic.

What is/was sad, that was the norm in my organization. One gentlemen had been overpaid for a while, he was called in, asked to sit down and told he had been overpaid for X time, so he could expect a NO PAY DUE for about a year.

Here is one, and I have seen it. Imagine all the troops overseas who are getting dependants pay etc. And then poof some brainiac in DC or wherever decides to start cross checking death or burial records from refugee camps, or even hospital records before things fell apart.

All of a sudden troops not only get notified their families are gone, but they have been over paid for X many years and they now owe the gov the funds back. Hell, that could even be how they learn their families are gone.

And yes, I do not doubt the caulousness of been counters to pull something like that.

Hmmm, cockroaches and burueacrates are the two creatures who will survive a nuclear strike. Although myth busters has proven that even roaches will die with enough ratiation.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by jester

What is/was sad, that was the norm in my organization. One gentlemen had been overpaid for a while, he was called in, asked to sit down and told he had been overpaid for X time, so he could expect a NO PAY DUE for about a year.

It was a not funny joke that whenever you PCSed (were transferred to another duty station), you could expect not to get paid for 1-4 months. And god help you if you attended any schools in between duty stations! They used to tell you that you should have at least four months worth of pay saved up for such an emergency -- most troops didn't get paid enough to have that kind of pad!

[HorseSoldier]

They had a kid when I was at Stewart who arrived there for his first duty station and somehow got his pay screwed up along the way. After six months with no paycheck (and, at least according to him, numerous complaints to his chain of command) he went AWOL and got a job at Walmart to pay the bills. I never heard the other side of the story, but he was in the process of getting discharged when I met him (his chain of command was farming hit out to any work detail they could find that needed bodies).

[Raellus]

How much army paperwork is digitized, nowadays? It seems like "your paperwork was misplaced" wouldn't fly anymore.

How much of that kind of stuff was digitized in the mid-to-late '90s? Once the nukes start flying, EMP and power outages would make most, if not all, computerized records innaccessible. Paper records would have a renaissance. But, how much of the army beuacracy would remain after the TDM?

I wonder how much paperwork would be done (or done properly) after the war went nuclear.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Raellus

How much army paperwork is digitized, nowadays? It seems like "your paperwork was misplaced" wouldn't fly anymore.

Almost everything is digital now. Now you get excuses like "it must have bounced from my mail box" or "Spam Blocker got it" or "this word isn't capitalized, redo it." It's ridiculous the games that people play.

How much of that kind of stuff was digitized in the mid-to-late '90s?

Lots of it was digitized, but there was also an abundance of hardcopy back ups on your person and in appropriate storage facilities. The microfiche was still very popular in this timeframe.

But, how much of the army beuacracy would remain after the TDM?

I wonder how much paperwork would be done (or done properly) after the war went nuclear.

I'd say not much to both of these.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

How much army paperwork is digitized, nowadays? It seems like "your paperwork was misplaced" wouldn't fly anymore.

They'd probably just say "the electrons got misplaced" or "computer problems."

[jester]

Another one is, "the system is down." That is a common one today. At my old work it was down for about a month or a bit longer. Or, "the system is locked" Or, "we can't access today. The bandwidth has been exceeded." Those are all common ones used today.

[Webstral]

For a somewhat modern example of how things might go, we could look at the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front. I'm not especially well-versed on the subject, but the reading I've done suggests that the Germans promoted by responsibility without necessarily adding rank. When the regiment is down to 200 men, there's a logic to this. Therefore, it makes sense that the NCOs would get used for a slew of things that the officers used to do.

It's difficult to say how much normalcy would last until 2000. The US Army (and armies in general) is rather dichotomous regarding change. In some ways, the Army resists change as hard as possible. In other ways, the Army embraces change very readily. SACEUR in 1998 may feel that holding on to the pre-nuke traditions is good for morale, orderliness, etc. On the other hand, his commanders and sergeants major might be telling him that things have to change if we're going to make it, sir. Certainly, the Pact offensive that summer should teach the NATO types that the war isn't over just because the basis of mechanized warfare has been dismembered by the nuclear exchange. A great deal of change will be needed quickly. There will be strong pressures to keep things that don't obviously need to be changed the same, and there will be strong pressures to make dramatic changes in anticipation of the next round of fighting. How all that plays out depends a good deal on SACEUR's personality, it seems to me.

Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

Well by 2000, the US Army would be acting much like the US Army WWII and like almost every other war the US Army had been in. The age of waiting for time in rank and automatic promotion regardless of enlisted and officers will be a thing of the past. Granted for officers, you will raise up the ladder at much faster than your rank would recognize, sometimes 2nd Lt would hold billets held by Captains, and doing the jobs held by Captains or higher ranks.

The US Army since the creation of the National Guard out of the various local militia has done away with Brevet type promotions. So they weren't too far off when they had Brigades and Regiments commanded by Lt and Captains. Also with moving personnel from Air Force and Naval to combat forces, lot of the officers will be in positions treated as 2nd Lt and work their way back up on how well they are able to handle the transfer...