Mostly OT: WWII Warbirds

[kato13]

Raellus 04-23-2008, 07:06 PM I took my almost 4-year-old son to see some still-flying WWII bombers at the small regional airport near my home last Saturday.


We got to walk around- and inside- a B-24G, a B-17F, and a B-25 Mitchell. My son loved it. I'll try to post a pic or two.


Of course, I got to thinking about how to incorporate such flying museum pieces in a T2K scenario. I imagine that such robust, relatively simple (compared to an F-16 or B-1B) aircraft could remain airworthy in the PAW, given the availability of fuel.

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Targan 04-23-2008, 11:59 PM What is the PAW?

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Headquarters 04-24-2008, 01:02 AM If there is some sort of organization and some measure of industrilaization and resouces left ,It would make sense to build or refurbish after the more bang pr buck principle ,rather than going for the very best ther is -like som emulti billion dollar top of the line jet fighter..Also pilot training etc would be easier with an older aircraft -and fuel consumption would be a major issue -just firing up a modern fighter jet could take an old piston engine a 100 km -well-along ways anyways.


In our campaign the airmuseums etc were always sought after prices ,because of parts,airframes etv that could be refurbished and put to use .(Yes-its not the canon type story ,we are heretics that follow other ,non-official scripture).The idea sprung up from -among other things -Antennas site ,were there are several WWII fighters.Also the US actually tested P51 type fighter bombers for close support in the 1980s.Also see Korea,Vietnam and whatevere non existing wars the US was involved in from 1945-1975 -alot of WWII planes were actively used in combat. A couple of of central American countries had a little border skirmish in the 1980s-both used WWII US fighters..I think the concept definently "flies"


We got quite a few on our site ( just follow the link below) .Many are for instance Nazi Germanys Emergency fighter program types -designed and ALMOST built in Germany 1945.

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kato13 04-24-2008, 02:15 AM What is the PAW?



Post Apocalyptic World?

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pmulcahy 04-24-2008, 08:23 AM In William W Johnstone's Ashes series, they did just that -- but it was emphasized that over half of the parts of those aircraft that they used were replaced with new parts they fabricated. The Rebels in the Ashes series (IMHO) have far more capabilities than is realistic, but they are still fun and interesting books to read.

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rcaf_777 04-24-2008, 12:54 PM In William W Johnstone's Ashes series I think they made P-51's?

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Gen.Lee 04-24-2008, 06:16 PM Well, the parts would certainly be easier to manufacture, if you have any kind of working machine shops, but there's still the shortage of high-octane gasoline.

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Hangfire7 04-25-2008, 02:13 AM Funny you should mention using WWII era aircraft. I came up with the following idea back in 91 when I had only heard about Airlords of the Ozarks, although we had played a campaign semi based on it where the GM had the New Americans having several ultra lights and a couple P-51s which when straffing our partys little convoy my PC caught in the open expecting to be killed fired a string of well aimed rounds at the attacker and damaged it, either causing it to crash or forcing it to limp away, sheesh that was what 91, well who can remember that far back!


But, when laid up recovering from injury and not having my books I came up with an alternative to GOING HOME.



The PCs miss the boat! Or they don't want to or whatever.


They are tooling around Europe and one looks at a colapsed building, us your imagination GM as to how he manages or why he crawls through a small hole and gets inside where he makes his discovery!


He finds that the building that looks colapsed was a small aircraft museum, or something similiar housing some of the larger bombers <yeah we can go with a cargo plane but they are so not sexy!> so, poof your PC discovers a colapsed building holding some WWII bombers, heck, have your PCs stumble on this months prior and they miss the boat and then poof they encounter an aircraft specialist or mechanic who can repair it, maybe a pilot.


Bottom line the PCs have to dig out the aircraft, inspect them repair them, replace and refit the engines, control cables and make it airworthy. And that is where the adventure begins, they have to safeguard their plane, keep it secrtet or guard it, they have to get the talent to make it flyable, they need to get the pilots because its a long haul across the Atlantic and we no longer have working GPS. So you are going to need a navigator or two as well.


And then you are going to need fuel, REAL FUEL not ethanol or methanol but gasoline, or synthetic gasoline made from coal or shale, but it has to be high octane.


So it is an adventure that requires several "QUEST" type adventures to allow the PCs to fly home.


In my scenario, I had the PCs running all over trying to scavange parts that can work, maybe upgrading the engines of a flying fortress and swapping them out for the engines of a P-3 Orion or a Flying Boxcar, something more modern, new propellers four blades vice three.


And of course lightening the aircraft removing things that are heavy to reduce drag and lighten the craft, in my scenario they got rid of the ball turret and the top turret as well as the bomb racks, machineguns and mounts and similiar items.


Then the PCs had to head into a place in S. Germany where "The Brain" a junior army officer had set up his own fiefdom, him being a chemical genious but he chose the wrong people and they turned on him using him and taking over the region for their own with him now serving them.


But "the brain" was able to convert coal into fuel, and the new tyrant were enslaving the locals to put them to work in condemed coal mines.


The PCs need the Brain, they need the coal from the mines to get fuel to fly home. They had to free the Brain, but the brain wants his area back, the people want to be free. And no one wants to dig in the condemed mines.





And of course the word will get out about the project the PCs have embarked upon, a working bomber! Alot of people want it, some just want a ride home. And some are threatened by it, others just want the gas they aquired! So there will be attacks and thefts.



When all is said and done, the plane is ready and its time to go well now we have a tough decision!


The plane has to fly across the Atlantic ocean and they have limited fuel. So they can only take say 12 or 14 people, that includes the flight crew. But trust me more people would have been involved in the rebuilding, guarding, scrounging, manufaturing parts from scratch and getting dfuel than what the plane cane carry. So, who goes and who stays? How do you decide?


And just when your PCs think the tough part is done you now tell them they are limited in what they can take on the plane, again weight and fuel. They get 1 sidearm and a small duffel bag or briefcase to carry all of their worldly goods. <This is a good means of stripping your PCs of their platoon of M1 Abrams tanks, their 100 Kilowat Pulse Rifles and their pocket howitzers and changing it from a game of gear to role playing again and forcing them to think as they start over in North America>


And well you can't have your PCs cruising around the East Coast with a B-17, so you have them carshland in the surfe or a farm field and their craft is damaged again, or they even crash at sea, but within swimming distance of the beach.


And of course the flight you have the nacigator roll so they don't get lost and run out of gas, or they get where they are trying to and not somewhere else, as well as mishaps like an electrical fire <fire in a plane full of gas for a cross atlantic flight is just BAD> a fuel leak, more bad mojo no smoking and will be have enough to make land? Turbulence and weather causing headwinds or tail winds or just making for a bumpy ride.


That is an adventure I wrote decades again and still would love to play one day as a alternative to the vanilla going home boat ride.

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O'Borg 04-25-2008, 04:13 AM Also the US actually tested P51 type fighter bombers for close support in the 1980s.

The Piper Enforcer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-48_Enforcer), which is a heavily tweaked and upgraded P51 but the principle is sound. Post WW2 T-28 trainer aircraft were successfully used in the Vietnam war for close air support ops too.

I'm a fan of this concept

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Headquarters 04-25-2008, 04:24 AM The Piper Enforcer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-48_Enforcer), which is a heavily tweaked and upgraded P51 but the principle is sound. Post WW2 T-28 trainer aircraft were successfully used in the Vietnam war for close air support ops too.

I'm a fan of this concept



not to mention A-26 ground attack planes , and the Grumman Hellcats etc that were used.


Anyways -logistically old typ episton engines like the JU 28 and DC-3 could reemerge -these can also be made with diesel engines.


airforces would revert to tactics and capacity of old being used as spotter aircraft ,scouts and ground attack.maybe something along the lines of even earlier concepts would be used-say upgraded and tweaked WWI planes?

The engines on these babies are not thirsty compared to more recent designs.


(Yeah I know..I am just saying since we went with this in our campaign..as we speak the MilGov agressors are pounding my party`s rebel troops in Nevada with their P-47 fighter bombers.. replica built of course)

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Matt Wiser 04-25-2008, 08:57 PM Remember Frank Frey's OB for the Lions of Twilight: the 173rd Airborne Brigade in Kenya? He had the Army aviators there flying some A-1 Skyraiders that they found on the docks in Mombasa, that a warbird collector had purchased before the war broke out. How'd the Skyraiders get to Kenya? The French flew A-1s in Algeria, Chad, Dijbouti, and several other African hot spots in the 1950s-70s, and when they were retired, left the birds in Africa. The collector (what was then the Confederate Air Force) found the aircraft and had them shipped to Mombasa so they could be loaded on a freighter and shipped to the U.S. Of course, the outbreak of war prevented that, and when the 173rd arrived, their attached aviation battalion painted the Spads in Army colors and markings, armed their 20-mm cannon and reattached the weapons-control panel and equipment, and went from there.

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pmulcahy 04-26-2008, 05:04 AM That reminds me of something...when I was in CAP in high school (CAP and ROTC -- plus the Judo Team and a paper route...damn I was busy!), some of the CAP aircraft had hardpoints to carry pods with air-droppable supplies, rafts, etc. They didn't have a high weight-carrying capacity, but the Major said that they could be modified to carry light weapons.

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Targan 04-26-2008, 07:02 AM I think the Argentinians flew Pucara prop driven aircraft in ground attack mode during the Falklands War.

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copeab 04-26-2008, 11:09 AM That reminds me of something...when I was in CAP in high school (CAP and ROTC -- plus the Judo Team and a paper route...damn I was busy!), some of the CAP aircraft had hardpoints to carry pods with air-droppable supplies, rafts, etc. They didn't have a high weight-carrying capacity, but the Major said that they could be modified to carry light weapons.


Living in an agricultural area, I've long wonderead about improvised weapon mountings on highly-agile crop dusters. (Consider the old Soviet U-2/Po-2)


Brandon

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copeab 04-26-2008, 11:42 AM I think the Argentinians flew Pucara prop driven aircraft in ground attack mode during the Falklands War.


p.45 of the Nautical/Aviation Handbook.


Brandon

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Hangfire7 04-26-2008, 02:59 PM Well, lets not forget the ultra light aircraft.


And modifying older biplanes and similiar older pistol and prop driven aircraft to use methane and propane fuels, or even some of those kit aircraft that were flying wings with a pusher prop in the rear, these were cheap at the time about 5k, could be transported in the back of a large pickup or trailer and could be stored in a two car garage. A couple high pressure tanks of liquified natural gas to run the engine. These of course would have limitations in cieling because well if you go to high the lines may freeze and cut off your fuel, as well as they could carry two passengers and some cargo or three small passengers, so exchange the passengers for bombs or machineguns and use them as ground support craft.


I think the above would be possible in a T2K world. What are your thoughts?


Jess

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O'Borg 04-28-2008, 02:34 AM I think the Argentinians flew Pucara prop driven aircraft in ground attack mode during the Falklands War.

According to Wikipedia they did, but I've no idea as to their effectiveness. Most of the Pucara's were destroyed on the ground by an SAS raid at the start of the ground war, one lost to small arms fire from 2 Para, one to a Stinger SAM (IIRC fired by an SAS trooper who hadn't had any training and got lucky), and one to a Sea Harrier.

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TiggerCCW UK 04-28-2008, 04:15 PM According to Wikipedia they did, but I've no idea as to their effectiveness. Most of the Pucara's were destroyed on the ground by an SAS raid at the start of the ground war, one lost to small arms fire from 2 Para, one to a Stinger SAM (IIRC fired by an SAS trooper who hadn't had any training and got lucky), and one to a Sea Harrier.


I remember reading somewhere that they were reasonably effective, especially when using napalm. There weren't as many left after the Pebble Island raid though, so they weren't the threat that they could have been.

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copeab 04-30-2008, 10:59 PM According to www.warbirdalley.com, the following vintage piston combat aircraft have at least 10 airworthy:


A-26 Intruder: 40

F4U Corsair: 28

F4F Wildcat: 18

F8F Bearcat: 10

TBF Avenger: 42

P-51 Mustang: 150

Spitfire: 50

B-17: 13

B-25: 34


EDIT: A-1 Skyraider: 19


Brandon

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SongofWar 05-01-2008, 12:33 AM Anyone know if there are still a bunch of A-1 Skyraiders laying around in mothballs somewhere? Might make a good Twilight adventure to get a couple going again.

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copeab 05-01-2008, 01:05 AM Anyone know if there are still a bunch of A-1 Skyraiders laying around in mothballs somewhere? Might make a good Twilight adventure to get a couple going again.


There are 19 still flying. No idea about those in storage.


Brandon

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O'Borg 05-01-2008, 04:36 AM According to www.warbirdalley.com, the following vintage piston combat aircraft have at least 10 airworthy:


A-26 Intruder: 40

F4U Corsair: 28

F4F Wildcat: 18

F8F Bearcat: 10

TBF Avenger: 42

P-51 Mustang: 150

Spitfire: 50

B-17: 13

B-25: 34


EDIT: A-1 Skyraider: 19


Brandon


Does this include the old warbirds that have been converted for air racing in the US?

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JHart 05-05-2008, 10:29 PM I just got into volunteering here http://www.militaryaviationmuseum.org/ to help

set up a library. The short version is that a pilot and airplane enthusiast, who happens to be very well off (pretty sure he is the first non-celebrity millionaire I have met) collects WW1 and 2 military aircraft. All of his planes are restored working aircraft. He owns aircraft maintenance schools across the country, and maintains a "fighter factory" to restore WW2 aircraft. He doesn't own just one or two, he has maybe 3 dozen or so planes, either restored or in the process of being restored.


All of the aircraft are of course unarmed, but it wouldn't take much to arm them.


About the only advantage a WW2 era fighter would have over a civilian plane like a Cessna, would be the fighters ability to handle damage better. Fighters would have power for extra armor. The only threats would be ground fire, and other planes.


Even one operational plane would increase your tactical options immensely.

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Headquarters 05-06-2008, 05:36 AM I just got into volunteering here http://www.militaryaviationmuseum.org/ to help

set up a library. The short version is that a pilot and airplane enthusiast, who happens to be very well off (pretty sure he is the first non-celebrity millionaire I have met) collects WW1 and 2 military aircraft. All of his planes are restored working aircraft. He owns aircraft maintenance schools across the country, and maintains a "fighter factory" to restore WW2 aircraft. He doesn't own just one or two, he has maybe 3 dozen or so planes, either restored or in the process of being restored.


All of the aircraft are of course unarmed, but it wouldn't take much to arm them.


About the only advantage a WW2 era fighter would have over a civilian plane like a Cessna, would be the fighters ability to handle damage better. Fighters would have power for extra armor. The only threats would be ground fire, and other planes.


Even one operational plane would increase your tactical options immensely.

Actually I think rate of climb,yaw,roll ,airspeed ,do not exceed speed etc is significantly better on most later piston fighters such as P51,Zero ,messerschmidt109 etc .Speed and manouverability .A P47 could possibly wing ram a Cessna 4 seater piston engine plane and tak eit out that way ...(If he doent want to use hi s8 (!) .50 cals that is..)


Small piston engined planes like Cessna 180 etc would not be able to withstand an attack by a trained fighter pilot in a WWII fighter for very long .

Whatever twists and turn you could coax out of such an aircraft would not matter much if a P38 or P47 comes screaming down from 15000 feet at 800km/hr on a long approach vector and line the cessna up..(I would say avgilot for the fighter pilot ..but thats just me..hehe)


otherwise I am onboard .Any aircraft gives your commanders the ability to spot and report troop movement and works and relay them in realtime or with a small delay..Artillery spotting is possible and would make a huge difference also .(Helicopters or even powered hanggliders CAN be used for this.)


please check out pur site regarding aircraft - there is a little something of everything I guess.

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O'Borg 05-06-2008, 05:58 AM Small piston engined planes like Cessna 180 etc would not be able to withstand an attack by a trained fighter pilot in a WWII fighter for very long .

Whatever twists and turn you could coax out of such an aircraft would not matter much if a P38 or P47 comes screaming down from 15000 feet at 800km/hr on a long approach vector and line the cessna up..(I would say avgilot for the fighter pilot ..but thats just me..hehe)

"Zoom and Boom" is an established and effective tactic used in WW2 by the P47, amongst others.

It received a mention in (IIRC) the book "Right of the Line" by Johnnie Johnson, where Spitfire pilots got their first look at the huge P-47 Thunderbolts arriving with the US Air Force and were highly skeptical of their air to air ability versus the far more maneuverable BF109s or FW190s. The P-47's later demonstrated their Zoom and Boom tactics versus a couple of Spitfires, and the argument was resolved in favour of the US

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