International Communications

[kalos72]

So in a T2K world, what kind of comms are we left with in the military? Operation Omega would imply alot more then just local radio communication considering the amount of coordination, regardless which scenario you follow.

Did they have satellite communication in the early 90's? Would it still work?

If not what are the other options besides carrier pigeon and mail?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Did they have satellite communication in the early 90's? Would it still work?

Wow you make me feel old! Yes satellites were used for communications in the '90s. And in the '80s, '70s and '60s.

[kalos72]

Hehe, sorry bout that. Was just wondering if the military was using it back then for secure comms and if they would still work today.

I assume comm systems on naval ships would be satellite or something since they travel crazy distances?

[jimbo4795]

From my days (early 80's) in communications in the USMC, I can remember using Morse code to send messages around the world without satellites. We would revert to long wire antennas and using "skip" to bounce the signal around the atmosphere. Remember, there were world wide radio nets in WWII.

[HorseSoldier]

Yeah, sky waved HF can let you talk to anyone on the planet with the right set up.

[Ramjam]

OMG I can just remember my basic comms training with you mentioning skywaves. It was back in the late 80's.

God was it really that long ago.

[kalos72]

So are the comms naval ships have sufficient for talking to one another half a world away or are they restricted too?

Howling Wilderness makes mention that keeping in touch with all the military units fails for both MILGOV and CIVGOV...

[Rockwolf66]

Remember that in TW2K there are the aftereffects of a limited scale nuclear war. I'm a complete idiot when it comes to radios but I do know that some things do wreak havok on reception.

[Legbreaker]

Note that there are NO working satellites left. We know this as fact from Satellite Down.
No GPS, No satphones, No long range comms of the modern era at all (and definitely no internet!)

There may be shortwave radios, some basic telephones (more likely telegraph) and the like, but forget about anything from the last few decades.

I see comms in 2000 as similar to those available in WWI - not very much!

[kalos72]

Then knowing that Operation Omega didn't happen without the continental US commanders contacting both units oversea as well as naval assets, how did they do it?

The equipment given in the printed material doesnt describe ANYTHING that could communicate that far...

How would say Cummings out West talk to Norfolk for example?

[headquarters]

arent there seacables ?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Then knowing that Operation Omega didn't happen without the continental US commanders contacting both units oversea as well as naval assets, how did they do it?

The equipment given in the printed material doesnt describe ANYTHING that could communicate that far...

How would say Cummings out West talk to Norfolk for example?

I know absolutely nothing about this subject, but I think both Jimbo4795 and HorseSoldier are suggesting that even in the absence of satelites it would still be possible for commanders in the US to speak to units overseas?

That said, with specific regard to Operation Omega and the obvious importance that would be attached to it, I think it's also possible that the JCS might decide to use some of their avgas reserves and send a team by air from the US to Germany to brief SACEUR on the operation personally. SACEUR's staff would then have the responsibility of cascading the Omega Operations Order to European based units. The briefing team could return to the US with TF34.

[kalos72]

Ill PM one of those guys to get some more information about this Skywave stuff...i am clueless bout most radio communication systems or theories honestly.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Note that there are NO working satellites left. We know this as fact from Satellite Down.

I find references to ASAT warfare, but I'm not able to find anything that explicitly says there are no more satellites in operation as of the events of Satellite Down. If you have a page number reference, Leg, that would help me in my efforts to figure out MilGov's long-range commo in 2001.

Webstral

[Fusilier]

I just finished watching the tail end of science show tonight that covered asat tech related to recent tests from China and the USA.

I found it interesting that the US officers being interviewed, were making it pretty clear that they'd be hestitant for destroying each and every satellites that was a target due to the resulting debris (adding to the crap that's already floating around being a hazard to satellites or rocket/shuttle launches). For every enemy satellite you hit you could be taking out any number of your own satellites.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

I just finished watching the tail end of science show tonight that covered asat tech related to recent tests from China and the USA.

What channel and what's the name? I might be able to catch it on DVR -- some channels like NatGeo, History, Military, and Science channels re-run their programs continuously on weekends.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

What channel and what's the name? I might be able to catch it on DVR -- some channels like NatGeo, History, Military, and Science channels re-run their programs continuously on weekends.

CBC "Canadian Broadcasting Corporation" I think it was.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

CBC "Canadian Broadcasting Corporation" I think it was.

Before or after "Terrance & Phillip"?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I find references to ASAT warfare, but I'm not able to find anything that explicitly says there are no more satellites in operation as of the events of Satellite Down. If you have a page number reference, Leg, that would help me in my efforts to figure out MilGov's long-range commo in 2001.

It's on page 4 in amongst the mission briefing.

"Now, during the height of the war, just about every satellite on both sides was knocked down or rendered worthless junk. All but DP 201. It just stopped transmitting."

Granted it's in the briefing rather than background material, but along with the other information presented, it's very believable. We're also informed on page 5 directly after "DP 201 Background" that:
"Military intelligence was weakened to breaking point during the Third World War. With "normal" communication lines nothing more than memories to most individuals..."
The rest is more about the importance of the information rather than comms.

We also know from the history (page 14 of the 2.0 yellow book) that at least in the US, the military had control over virtually all surviving communications networks. This tells me that the civilian satellites are gone. It is extremely likely that other nations satellites suffered a similar fate either attacked directly to deny them to the enemy, or damaged by the EMP effects of the hundreds (if not thousands) of warheads used in 1997 and 1998.

[rcaf_777]

In reference ASAT warfare I know think the USSR was devloping much beyond the drawing board due lack of techincal capablities, and the USAF had a good program but around twilight kick off it only would a few protype weapons, so I find hard to belive that many satellites would not be working considering that is you want to destory emeny communications jammers and destorying the ground base stations would give you "More Bang for Buck" and it's easier too.

Now is satellite down did it say it fell to earth due to decaying orbit, which would certianly happen give that most of worlds launching ports are destoryed and no mission could launched to fix them.

As for the US Military the DoD has Military Auxiliary Radio System which would haddle communications for DoD after the bombs fell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...y_Radio_System

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It's on page 4 in amongst the mission briefing.

"Now, during the height of the war, just about every satellite on both sides was knocked down or rendered worthless junk. All but DP 201. It just stopped transmitting.".

Given the wording, one could argue that this specifically refers to the satellites of the various combatant nations only.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It is extremely likely that other nations satellites suffered a similar fate either attacked directly to deny them to the enemy, or damaged by the EMP effects of the hundreds (if not thousands) of warheads used in 1997 and 1998.

Whilst this may well be the most likely outcome, it is possible, however, that a handful of satellites belonging to neutral nations (I'm thinking specifically of the French) may still be operational.

On a semi related note, going from memory I think the V2 NATO vehicle guide places a French Foreign Legion detachment in French Guiana, so presumably the Guiana Space Centre may be intact, if not fully operational.

[Legbreaker]

Neutral nations were directly attacked with nukes. Why would the satellites have avoided the same fate? If they weren't directly hit by ASAT weapons (which I understand includes nukes), then the resultant debris would likely cause significant damage. EMP would serious effect ground bases and with the high value of communications, chances are these ground facilities would have been high priority targets - they might not have been nuked in a number of cases, but conventional bombs, special forces and general sabotage by enemy agents would likely put them out of commission for at least long enough that the satellites they controlled essentially fell out of the sky.

Basically, how can anyone justify satellites remaining in any usable form several years into the most devastating and comprehensive war ever?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Neutral nations were directly attacked with nukes. Why would the satellites have avoided the same fate? If they weren't directly hit by ASAT weapons (which I understand includes nukes), then the resultant debris would likely cause significant damage. EMP would serious effect ground bases and with the high value of communications, chances are these ground facilities would have been high priority targets - they might not have been nuked in a number of cases, but conventional bombs, special forces and general sabotage by enemy agents would likely put them out of commission for at least long enough that the satellites they controlled essentially fell out of the sky.

Basically, how can anyone justify satellites remaining in any usable form several years into the most devastating and comprehensive war ever?

I get what you're saying about the neutral nations being nuked, but one thing that I've often wondered about is whether the French might be treated as an exception and not targeted to the same extent as other neutral nations.

Why? Because they still have a large and reasonably intact military, and, possibly more importantly, have nukes of their own. Nuke Venezeula or Mexico or even Sweden and what's the worst they could do? But nuke the French and you risk bringing a nuclear power who also have a large and relatively well equipped conventional Army into the War on the same side as your enemy.

I may be in the minority here (and I am assuming that canon does state somewhere that France was attacked by nukes) but personally I wonder if that's a risk either side would feel is worth taking just to knock out a few satellites and some oil refineries?

Cheers...

[simonmark6]

The fact that France has nukes is probably irrelevant in the Soviet's calculations. After all, they launched nukes at the USA and were obliterated in return. Any payload the French can add to the party isn't going to make much difference. All they'll probably do is end up nuking places twice.

Another calculation the Soviets miht have made was that it was worth crippling the only neutral nation capable of producing nuclear weapons. In fact, if you follow the 2300AD timeline, they should have nuked them more so that they wouldn't have turned out as top dogs.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by simonmark6

The fact that France has nukes is probably irrelevant in the Soviet's calculations. After all, they launched nukes at the USA and were obliterated in return. Any payload the French can add to the party isn't going to make much difference. All they'll probably do is end up nuking places twice.

Another calculation the Soviets miht have made was that it was worth crippling the only neutral nation capable of producing nuclear weapons. In fact, if you follow the 2300AD timeline, they should have nuked them more so that they wouldn't have turned out as top dogs.

Yep, those are valid points...like I said, it's just one of those things that I've always wondered about when I have too much time on my hands (such as when I'm stuck at work on a Bank Holiday)

I also like the scenario proposed on the etranger website, which also offers a possible answer to the question:

"France staying out of World War III, meant she was not adversely affected till the nuclear exchanges of November-December 1997. During this period French ports and oil facilities were struck. France asked, and was given permission, to transit German airspace. The hope was that France would enter the war on the side of NATO. CoFAS responded with the ‘pre-strategic’ ASMP strikes against selected Soviet targets. For every strike against France, one Soviet target was hit. The point had been made France would stay out of the war if left alone."

Full text can be found here:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dh...ical/PGAA1.htm

Cheers

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I know absolutely nothing about this subject, but I think both Jimbo4795 and HorseSoldier are suggesting that even in the absence of satelites it would still be possible for commanders in the US to speak to units overseas?

Basically, some radio wave frequencies are able to bounce a signal of the upper atmosphere one or more times, extending their range. This isn't exclusive to the High Frequency (HF) range, but that's the one that people mostly concern themselves with, since it's the one that really gives range and, with a suitable radio set up and atmospheric conditions you can talk to anyone on the planet with an HF radio. None of this stuff is particularly high tech -- it's early 20th century tech and stuff that Ham Radio guys do in their garages, so even post-nuke people would be able to build or adapt existing radios.

[jturfitt]

Many hams radio operators belong to the M.A.R.S network. This is the auxiliary military communication network. Nowadays it concentrates mostly on disaster communications. All of the services have their own branches of this service. I used to belong to the Army M.A.R.S network before Katrina ate my antennas. I still do not have them back up the way they should be.