Mexicans in T2K

[kalos72]

So my group was talking tonight and we brought up the Mexican invasion of Texas and how alot of the illegals that were already here in the US might have joined the Mexican Army in fighting the US troops.

My group thinks that US Military units won't care to differentiate between hostiles and civilians in a Mexican Army camp.

That led to the question, is it fair to say that most any Mexican found in Texas and the SouthWest would be viewed with hatred and distrust causing them to be attacked more openly and with prejudice by most Americans?

[Rockwolf66]

Well those who have been exposed to Spanish Speakers can recognize regional accents after a while. For a fictional storyline I've been working on in my spare time I discovered that even Mexican dialects of Spanish have regional differances. New Mexican Spanish is different than Northern mexican Spanish. Smart troops will use these diferances to spot Mexican citizens.

[kalos72]

I think the point was more so, would they care enough to try?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kalos72

That led to the question, is it fair to say that most any Mexican found in Texas and the SouthWest would be viewed with hatred and distrust causing them to be attacked more openly and with prejudice by most Americans?

Yes, they would. And, based on what I know about the San Antonio area, it would be mostly unjustified. However, a whole lot of Illegals would try to get home to their families in Mexico rather than join the Mexican Army forces, fight against Texans in an insurgent manner, or join the US forces in Texas. As a result, they would be preyed on by everyone -- Mexicans press gangs and US press gangs would be used. A wise leader would give them a concrete stake in things if possible (whether or not he's lying or has the power to give the Illegals anything).

Some mistreated Illegals, of course, are going to take arms against the Nortemericanos -- but probably on their own rather than working with the Mexican Army. They'll be just as likely to be mistreated by the Mexicans. The Mexicans won't want the Illegals back.

[jester]

From the mindset of many people in many portions of S. Cal alot would rally to the Mexican cause, many consider themselves "mexican" even though they were born here and their parents were born here and their grandparents. Coupled with alot of the racist attituide of "La Raza" and its mindset I can see some full on genocide that would make the Balkans seem like a Sunday social happening at least in many portions of Southern California. Cities like San Bernardino, Los Angeles would errupt into race riots, Orange County would be interesting, Parts of Riverside as well. If the situation were such as Twilight, with the Mexican Army moving north alot of hispanics usualy of the gang lifestyle would incite riots, looting and racialy based attacks which in turn would result in retaliation from other racial groups or at the very least they would band together, and well anyone of hispanic background who was not directly known would possibly be shot on sight.

I look at the L.A. Riots when alot of the victims of looting and crime where the Asian store owners, in the end, they protected their own stores with rifles. I can see that happening on a routine basis after a few incidents, add some local community activits who form their own community militia or neihborhood watch group only these watches go armed ala a vigilante group.

And then once active fighting took place between regular mexican forces I can see alot of hate being inflicted on citizens of mexican desent as well as illegals and the criminal element of mexican background.

[Webstral]

It almost goes without saying that this topic is a minefield. That much said, let’s play Intel officer and look at everyone’s motivations.

It’s hard to look at a group as large as Mexican immigrants and generalize about their attitudes. Pre-war migrants left Mexico because it wasn’t working out for them. Some may believe that their lot in the US will get better with Mexican troops in charge, just as some real-life Mexican immigrants entertain fantasies of Aztlan, which would surely oblige them to move to Oregon once the people who own everything in Mexico claimed everything in California. Generally, though, people so motivated by their lot to move to the US, legally or otherwise, probably aren’t under a lot of illusions about how much better things would be in the United States if the Mexican government ran things instead of the US government. They’ve had a sample of what things are like under the Mexican government, and they voted with their feet.

The war changes things a bit, of course. According to the v1 chronology, soon after the 1997 nuclear exchange a flood of Mexican refugees cross the Rio Grande. Whether one likes my explanation of what happens in Mexico in 1997 and 1998 or not, something is happening that prompts large numbers of Mexicans to leave home and try their lot in the United States—even after the US has been knocked on its fourth point of contact by the nuclear exchange. Whatever the game designers had in mind for post-Exchange Mexico, it’s bad news.

Red Star, Lone Star summarizes the situation rather nicely. The Anglos in the border regions often don’t discriminate between Mexicans. Among Mexicans, the American citizens and long-term residents are distinct from the new arrivals. While some Mexican-Americans will gravitate towards both camps, the citizens and legal residents have a lot more in common with the Anglos than with the new arrivals, language notwithstanding. In particular, it’s hard to imagine the pre-Exchange successful shop owner or small business operator throwing his or her lot in with refugees or the Mexican Army. A few will perceive that collaboration is in their best interest, though. There is good story-telling potential here, though I doubt I’m the one to tell such a tale.

So throughout the border region we should expect a good deal of white-on-brown/brown-on-white violence (to use a rather crude term) and a good deal of brown-on-brown violence. Once the front stabilizes in California and Texas, life is going to get pretty tough for some folks in some areas. Of course, there will be considerable variation in attitude from location to location, but at the very least tensions will be high within 50km of the front or more.

In Arizona, the collapse of (metropolitan) Phoenix exposes some ugly racial fault lines. Some gangs and neighborhoods settle out along racial lines. By 2000, though, the race issue has taken a back seat to simple survival. The Valley of the Sun, which in pre-war times held more than half of the population of Arizona, dwindles to about 75,000 by the end of 2000. There are still racial tensions, but they are rather like the attitudes of marauder bands in Europe: they’d rather hit the former enemy for supplies and whatnot, but at the end of the day the marauders will target whomever they need to—or ally themselves with whomever they need to. And there are some surviving groups with internal cohesion based on faith or ideology, rather than ethnicity.

Yuma, which falls under the control of the Mexican Army at the beginning of the war and stays that way, loses almost all of its Anglo population by the end of 1999. The Blythe Oasis (have a look at a satellite map, and you’ll see what I mean) has, by 2000, managed to settle into its role as a vassal of the Second Mexican Army. The Mexican Army doesn’t have a permanent garrison in the oasis, but they have a strong influence. The survivors manage to get along in a society that is shaking out a bit like old Egypt. The new Mexican arrivals, who don’t have reliable backing from the Mexican Army, haven’t managed to take things over like they have in the Imperial Valley or in Yuma. Anglo (and other non-Mexican) refugees from Phoenix and elsewhere find that their position isn’t any better than that of the Mexican refugees. The real winners are the Mexican-Americans, who find that they can straddle the fence—for now.

The smaller Mohave Valley Oasis is rather similar, except that they hardly ever see the Mexican Army. More of the original land owners are alive, and there is a somewhat higher percentage of non-Mexican laborers living in the oasis. Overall, though, the Mohave Valley Oasis looks like the Blythe Oasis in miniature. Their boogyman, though, isn’t the Second Mexican Army. The Mohave Valley Oasis dreads the arrival of the Shogun and his Gunryo.

In southern central Arizona, most of the pre-war non-Mexican population has been killed or driven out. During late 1998 and part of 1999, the Sonora Army practiced a methodology that the Serbs in Bosnia and Chechnya would recognize. Regular units began conducting reconnaissance-in-force operations that were a cover for the so-called chupacabra operatives. Taking their name from a very recent monster myth, the special operatives specialize in torture and murder. The SS would recognize this small group by their actions. The chupacabras have played a major role in emptying south central Arizona of all non-Mexicans by 2000.

In SAMAD, integration is the watchword. The much smaller flow of Mexican refugees into southern Arizona in early 1998 was tolerably managed by local US forces. Large numbers of refugees ended up in camps in the area. To the ire of later historians, these refugees ate food that had been stockpiled for Phoenix. However, Mexican refugees were treated tolerably as long as they worked for their keep. SAMAD instituted a citizenship program for all Mexican refugees on the heels of the citizenship program for EPW who worked in the labor battalions and later joined 111th Brigade or another formation in SAMAD.

One of the key elements of the transition in SAMAD was marriage. Many single soldiers took wives from among the refugee population from 1998 onward, thus ensuring that Mexican refugees as a whole had an avenues of integration. Another key element was delivered to the Americans in 1999. After the failure of the 1999 offensive in Arizona, the Mexican Army parleyed with Fort Huachuca for the purpose of prisoner exchange. The Mexican Army only wanted its officers back, plus the hard-line Communists among the EPW at Huachuca who had refused to participate in the Huachucan program for American citizenship. Fort Huachuca turned this into propaganda gold among the Mexican population in SAMAD; by the end of 2000, the first former Mexican EPW had been integrated into 111th Brigade and other formations.

Not all has been rosy in SAMAD in terms of Anglo-Hispanic relations. There have been some ugly incidents along the border. There have been some ugly incidents in the camps. There have been some ugly incidents in the towns. Counter-intelligence pressures on the Mexican population are very markedly more intense than on their non-Mexican counterparts. When new Hispanic wives started appearing on post, there was a brief period of heightened tension. Fortunately, however, the post command sergeant major dealt with the situation quickly and expediently.

Further north, a number of relokees from southern California ended up in Idaho. (It was reasoned that labor would be needed at the Snake River farms.) Unfortunately, with the coming of the new millennium, the New Americans have come out of hiding. Having set the stage for their virulent Aryanism during the years since the Exchange, the New Americans are busy recreating the horror of the Holocaust in their corner of Idaho. People of Hispanic, Asian, and black background have been thrown into concentration camps to work until they die of starvation.

In Nevada, the iron grip of the Shogun has kept race issues on the back burner. The need for labor is such that anyone who can work has a place. In any event, whatever his other flaws the Shogun is no racist. His Nipponized motorized army includes troops of every ethnicity. His special police, the kempeitai, terrorize without regard to skin color.


Webstral

[kalos72]

Great post Web!

For our talk last night, we were going through some plots in the RedStar module and found that alot of the cities that far south are all Mexican immigrant. The "Anglos" left once the rush started.

So the thinking was, once the 5th Army units start coming down from up North to clear out the Mexican Army, they could start to just shell cities that they know aren't "American" any more.

One person brought up chemical rounds usage to clear them out of the major cities....

[simonmark6]

Personally, I hate the idea of ethnic cleansing or any talk about treating people as not being human because they are of a different race. I do however understand that we are talking about a game and the ramifications of a hypothetical timeline.

If I was the GM, and my PCs were talking in this way, I'd let them have it, then hit them with the consequences. What do you think would happen to the many millions of Mexicans that are living relatively peacefully within the US borders would do when the news got out that "Anglos" were using WMDs to clean out "American" towns of undesirables.

I think there'd be two outcomes taht you could hit the PCs with:
1) The Mexican Army which is shown to be rather lacklustre and reluctant to pursue the war would suddenly have a massive reason to fight with everything in their power. Granted this may not be much depending on your assessment of the Mexican army, but I imagine troops pressing attacks with much more vigour, any defences may well be fought to the last man against the evil Gringo and Mexican may well no longer take prisoners (if they ever did in your universe).
2) The relatively peaceful mexicans within the borders would be seriously radicallised by such actions. Your PCs may operate a shoot on sight policy against Hispanics, but eventually they'd run into IEDs, maybe even suicide bombers haunting their every step.

So whilst it's distasteful, I'd say, let them have it but make sure that the Mexicans are as nasty as the PCs and react to what is done to them in an agressive fashion rather than letting them act as cannon fodder. taht way the PCs will learn that they reap what they sow.

[HorseSoldier]

I'd agree with the idea that a great many of the illegal immigrants currently in the US would not be particularly interested in the fight at all. They're here for economic opportunity, and after the world economy gets blasted by the nukes, there's no real reason to be hanging about. The idea that they'd want to get home, as was mentioned, makes a lot of sense to me.

Of course, if there were US affiliated groups running around taking an "the only good Mexican is a dead Mexican" view of things, I could see lots of illegal immigrants and completely legal US citizens of Mexican descent getting caught up on the Mexican military's side of the fight for motivations of survival or perhaps revenge that they would not have had when things kicked off.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well with the corruption of the Mexican Army and the several factions of it brought to us by GDW. Lot of the gangs that are located say in California and the drug cartels of the day in Northern Mexico would be fighting both side to stir the pot hoping that they blame each other for the attacks.

There would be two reason for this.

1. To show the local population that neither the US/State/local Government don't give a crap about their lot, and the Mexican Government doesn't hold opinion any higher.

2. Reinforce the idea that they can protect them and hoping to gain loyalty from people who weeks/months/years before would never associate themselves with these types of people. Due to the fact that they believe is option 1....

Just some thoughts.

[waiting4something]

I think a lot of Mexicans and Americans with Mexican bloodlines in the U.S.A. would join up with Mexican Army. I have met a few guys that have told me this when I asked them this very question. This always puzzled me since they where here in the United States and members of our military? I think we would have one hell of a insurgent probelm with a lot of double agents. Not to mention a chunk of our own troops pulling a Benedict Arnold. Talk about a bad situation.

[Rockwolf66]

so the trick is to get ahold of the Mexican's crossing the border. Weed out the hardcore criminals and the Mexican Army infiltraitors and then start forming Firqat*s with the men. With the what was it 50% worldwide casualty rates I can see the need for both a large semiskilled labor force ( and trust me when I say that Mexican's are very good at such things) and an armed force to protect said laborpool.

*Paramilitary groups formed by Oman out of Former rebels and lead by British troops. The British were under unofficial control of the british government and paid for by Saudi Arabia. With my idea you use the majority of the "Guest workers" for quality of life labor projects and the ones more sutable for combat you turn into a Militia under the command of MILGOV.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well that wouldn't surprise me. Then again people would be surprise how many racist and gang members were in the military. In many cases, they know enough to not be vocal about their affiliation with such groups, but aren't afraid to let you know talking to them in private how they feel.

Like I said before it wouldn't surprise me, no matter if we move south or they move north. Desertion will be problem in some units, and it will make the insurgency that we see in sand boxes look tame.

[headquarters]

Is it safe to assume that the discussion here is in part about what GDW says about Mexican/US relations and the situation in SW US AND also about what our board members think would happen in RL ?

If that is the case I would like to offer an opinion ( albeit maybe not a very well informed one ,but nevertheless).

I have a theory that the pattern of US/Mexican relations seen today might be changed into something quite the opposite of our RL situation in- game T2K.

I will start this of by explaining a little - I once read that the end of the world as we know it would mean the death of 900 out of 1000 people in an average Western "village" or neighborhood.The community would disintegrate into family size communities -possibly in competition.

But in a third world country 500 would survive and there would be some continuity in the regime in the village.
Why? A lot of different factors to be discussed in length -but short answer- specialization.The Western world has a major percentage of its populace working with stuff that is none to good in a TEOTWAWKI scenario like T2K. Stock brokers,IT guys and all manner of desk jobs etc would amount to a gazillin mouths to feed with no hard skills for the new dark age.
In the third world ,however ,society is less specialized and will fare better.

The numbers of survivors etc is just to give an indication of how hard the fall is .

Now,at this point I would like to very much assure all that this theory is related to the game and in no way is any of this intended to be an insult or offensive.It is just one guys theory after all -and really ,whos to say what would happen after WWIII??

Mexico and Mexicans will in many ways be better adapted to coping with the effects of T2K in the longer term.They still have a large portion of the population in rural areas,and their farming practices are in many places less industrialized than the US .( One of the worlds leading agricultural industries -heavily modernized etc-all of which will be to its detriment once everything breaks down in T2K).
Mexican labourers are accustomed to the hardships of the fields -a minor point ,but also and more important they probably have more experience in low tech small operation farming than many or most of their US counterparts.

Also I think that cottage industries might more easily spring up in Mexican communities -after all ,in Mexico they already exist as an integral part of the economy to a greater extent than say the US .

The SW and indeed much of the South in general could see a major migration of people trying to escape the winters from teh Nortehrn states .They would desperately try to reach warmer climates and on the way -or when they get there the usual conflicts between the new comers and the inhabitants will eventually flare up over housing,farm land and resources.
Meaning that the South/SW will be a battlefield -considering the number of firearms available.( Not that farm implements wouldnt be used ,just that alot of guns makes it all more intense and worse)

In Mexico ,on the other hand,the drug cartels would suddenly loose all income as the US currency is worthless-(pretty much all currencies will be except the French and Australian Dollars/New Zeeland Dollars.)

This leaves these organizations in a severly weakened position unless they can re-invent themselves as useful to the general populace. ( Many organized crime groups started out as more honourable freedomfighters/self defence organizations for common folk and then they turned to crime as time went by).Maybe the cartels will do it the other way around.If they cannot change and continue clinging to the old "fear us -we are mighty and secret and can get you at any time" way,they will in time be nothing more than another maraudergroup.After all - whats to stop regular people taking up arms in self defence if there is no law?When there are no judges or officers to be bought to let them get away with it ,it all comes down to gunplay.

I see these organizations as parasites that can only thrive if the "host society" is up and running and currency is strong .If there is no demand for cocaine or marihuana ( well,of course you could barter for it ..how many potatoes is a dime bag anyways?)- the parasites die off.

SO! they will actually try to STABILIZE the situation as much as possible to get some resemblance of the old economy up and running again in order to merrily continue selling drugs for money .
Life in Mexico will be hard ,but I think it will actually look better than life in post nuke US .Thus migration might go the other way- people trying to leave the US and make a better life for themselves in Mexico.

This isnt to say that many parts of the US has cottage industries,small scale farming and people acustomed to poverty or hardship .So the same argument could well be applied for these areas.

In any case - this was just a few thoughts

[Abbott Shaull]

The Drug Cartel's and gangs that heavy in the Drug supply would either find new ways to exploit the people they are 'protecting' and some who have good leadership will survive as they re-create themselves into local warlords.

[kalos72]

Thats a good point about both the cartels and how some of the migrants would have skill sets most average Americans wouldn't.

In RedStar, alot of the towns south of Corpus Cristi were all Mexican immigrant. How would a returning US Army trying to secure the area again behave knowing that most of the locals were not American?

Maybe, from the thoughts here, they would weed out the skilled people and then force the others back to Mexico?

Or perhaps since most of that population is immigrant, they would just say follow the law, assist us with the rebuilding and give NO AID to the Mexican Army or any party looking to oppose the rebuilding and control and you can have citizenship.

Not sure what there would be to rebuild with no population there... :/

[HorseSoldier]

I think that for the most part the drug cartels would find themselves exterminated -- on the one hand, their source of income disappears and on the other hand the Mexican military will be off the leash when it comes to ensuring stability. The Mexican military isn't noted for its effectiveness, and a lot of those gangs are well armed, but at the end of the day none of them are packing AFVs and artillery so far as I can tell. Add in that people are in the business for money, not for ideology, and I don't see them being very durable when push really comes to shove. Some might survive, and I can definitely see drug lords retreating to ranches and estates to become minor local warlords or marauders, but I don't see much real political/military power on their ledger books by 2000.

In RedStar, alot of the towns south of Corpus Cristi were all Mexican immigrant. How would a returning US Army trying to secure the area again behave knowing that most of the locals were not American?

Good question. In the T2K/2300AD timeline the basic answer is they didn't, with Texas ending up a Mexican state while MilGov, CivGov, and New America slugged it out for non-SW USA parts of the country.

[Webstral]

I agree that the cartels are going to find the world a rather new place. The narcotics trade with the US will dry up pretty darned quickly after November 1997. Whether any of these groups will morph into something different is another question. Until the Mexican peso completely loses its value, a cartel has some reserves of cash (useful). They have an existing organization of armed men (very useful). They have their agents and allies in law enforcement and the government (also very useful). I don't know how well this translates into a new power structure, though. It's an issue worth exploring.

Certainly, some Americans will side with the Mexican Army once the bread appears to be buttered on that side. No society that places such a strong and proud ideological emphasis on self-interest has any business being surprised when some of its people turn coats. How many? I suppose that depends on the location. In Yuma and the Imperial Valley, collaboration probably will be a necessity of life. I look at my little man in his crib and think to myself that I would be hard put to offer him up as a sacrificial lamb to my patriotism.

Webstral

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

In the T2K/2300AD timeline the basic answer is they didn't, with Texas ending up a Mexican state while MilGov, CivGov, and New America slugged it out for non-SW USA parts of the country.

Slightly OT, but is there anywhere online that you can read the history/timeline of 2300? I've no interest in it as a game, but I'd like to read the timeline just to see what the designers reckon happened post T2K.

[Mohoender]

If it helps, I have found this:

http://www.oocities.com/timessquare/...est/timeln.htm

[Targan]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Good question. In the T2K/2300AD timeline the basic answer is they didn't, with Texas ending up a Mexican state while MilGov, CivGov, and New America slugged it out for non-SW USA parts of the country.

Not quite accurate. Texas ended up an independent republic, and was still independent 3 centuries later. By 2001 MilGov and CivGov had pretty much stopped shooting at each other and (from memory) some time during the 20-teens they reunited as one government to defeat the remains of New America and other secessionist groups.