Special Operations Forces in the Year 2K.

[oldschoolgm]

When T2K was published in the mid 80's the TOE's back then assigned the 5th Spec Forces Group and 1st NAVSPECWAR Group to the European theater. From reading up on everything the majority of these teams and their command elements are particularly non-existent. And I believe that it's the assumption of the game writers that these individuals have been blended into the regular line units.

In a sense though, this fly's in the face of the SOF culture as well as the best operational use of such individuals. To me it would be more likely that such units would be kept intact as possible though I could also see them becoming very blended. For example, a small squad consisting of SEAL's, Green Berets, Air Force ARES members as Marine Force Recon guys. When you compare this to current SOF operations running in Iraq and Afghanistan where this kind of blending is happening to one degree or another, this makes sense.

The purpose of this is to determine the likely hood of any of my players being able to have a SOF type character and to further redress the likelyhood of having a group of players play an entire team.

In bringing up my topic on the 2nd Marines, this opens the door to determine the possibilities of a Force Recon team being operational and how far they would have travelled in their role of gathering Strategic Reconnaissance for the Division.

Here I can easily see teams of combine SEALs and Recon, just as I can easily imagine SF teams have Rangers, AF ARES or Pararescue members, SEALs and so on in the groups. Mainly because at this point of the war SOF teams would be a valuable SR asset as well as a critical asset when Direct Action was needed to either open up a block in movement or to create more chaos by eliminating key command and supply factors.

Thoughts? Ideas?

[Webstral]

The fate of the various special operators depends a great deal on a handful of personalities. The European theater has gone to absolute bog shite. There is no precedent and no modern equivalent. How SACEUR chooses to handle the situation depends a great deal on what we believe about SACEUR and his principal advisors vis-a-vis the existing resources. For instances, if SACEUR doesn't believe he has the resources to support special operations in the manner in which they are supposed to operate, then he might not see the need to maintain a separate command. Alternatively, the various subordinate SO commands might be drastically reduced. Alternatively, the various SO commands might be maintained at the highest level possible, since they have an impact on the battlefield out of proportion to their numbers. With the USAF being grounded, SO might be the only way to go after important targets deep in the rear. Again, though, we come to the question of supporting these guys.


Webstral

[Legbreaker]

Elite forces of all nationalities may have suffered the highest casualty rates of all non-nuked units. Operating well away from any significant support, if they ran into trouble, chances are they'd get wiped out (Just look at Bravo Two Zero in 1991 for an example).
Naturally avoiding these sorts of situations is definately preferable, but after about 5 years of fighting, it's inevitable attrition would have taken a serious toll.
Training replacements may be given a high priority given these units usefulness once aircraft, satellites and other high tech intel options were gone, but my understanding is it takes years to do properly. The units may remain, but the quality of the operators is likely to decrease on average towards the latter half of the war. It's also likely in my opinion that some of the better soldiers from Infantry units, as well as specialists from other areas (signals, engineers, etc) necessary for completion of the assigned tasks would soon find themselves transfered in as replacements. A team of say 10 men may only include 2-3 prewar/fully trained SF troops with the rest filled out with semi-trained (for SF purposes) troops from elsewhere.

[HorseSoldier]

5th Group was assigned the Middle East and Africa AOR by the time RDF Sourcebook got written (and 3rd Group wasn't on the books at the time if I remember right, but 11th and 12th in the USAR were still around).

[Rockwolf66]

let us not forget that there are German and British Special Forces units wandering around and I'm sure that like today they would backchannel information and equipment to each other.

[oldschoolgm]

To a degree, I have to agree with Leg in that the casualty rate after 4+ years of war for the SOF groups will probably be high. I suspect this would be especially true of the Navy Seals. They have the longest training time being at 2 years or so in the 80's and expanded to almost 3 years in the 90's. They also have a mission configuration that puts them directly in harms way in a much more significant manner than the other units.

As for the Air Force units, I really see them becoming almost non-existent by 1999 due to lack of aircraft and the fact that these teams have the fewest numbers of any of others.

Now here is where I have to start really considering a lot of factors. For the Special Forces, I think that the teams that were tasked with Direct Actions mission types their numbers would have definitely been depleted. But the Special Forces employs a number of different kinds of teams. The training teams as well as the teams with mission profiles more oriented with working with local populations would in my opinion have suffered less casualties. I believe this in that I would think they would go 'native' and blend into local populace and work to develop a significant guerilla type situation or even work towards the overall survival of the community they are in.

As for Force Recon, it becomes a two fold issue as well I believe. Force Recon has two different types of teams. The units that do all the forwards scouting for the regiment and the teams that work for the higher command on gathering more significant strategic intelligence. The regimental recon teams I feel would have look just like what your outlining Leg, in that they are probably a combination more experienced and fully trained personnel and those that have been brought up on the fly due to battlefield needs. As for the Recon teams that operate more independently and I just not sure how severe the attrition rate would be given that they are more apt through mission directives to avoid combat.

Supporting these teams and their mission profiles as they evolve the further you get into the war I would think would be less and less resource heavy on the various command units. I feel by the time 2k arrives the remaining teams would probably be pretty self-sufficient in making sure they have what they need, and attempting to provide operational support is probably minimal at best. This probably would lead to the SOF teams only being used as needed and on missions that didn't require any operational support beyond what little the units could afford to give.

As for command, it has only recently been initiated that the SOF teams operate in the field under their own command structure, when T2K was written they operational command was handled at Corp or higher level if my memory serves me right. Though I could see that in game terms this might be taken care of at Division level by the summer of 2000.

A thought to consider here, SOF teams operated round the clock in Vietnam with a significantly lower attrition rate than the line units deployed there.

[oldschoolgm]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

let us not forget that there are German and British Special Forces units wandering around and I'm sure that like today they would backchannel information and equipment to each other.

I haven't forgotten, it just adds to the ambiguity of the subject as well as the difficulty of grasping an accurate picture of this subject.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

A thought to consider here, SOF teams operated round the clock in Vietnam with a significantly lower attrition rate than the line units deployed there.

It depends on the mission. Perhaps if you are referring to SOF troops acting in an advisory role. But for "direct action" type operators, casualty rates were actually higher than typical line units. LRRP/Ranger teams often suffered close to 100% casualty rates (with the majority of casualties consisting of WIA). Some SOG commands suffered over 200% casualty rates with soldiers returning to active duty after recovering from wounds again and again. Although SEAL and Marine Recon teams sustained casualties at a lower rate, they were still significant.

[pmulcahy11b]

The SOF units I see really getting decimated in T2K are units like Delta and DEVGRU (or I guess in T2K, they would still be called SEAL Team 6). They are hard-core direct action units that as good as they are, would inevitably suffer great losses, and expertise like that is not something you can just replace with new people -- those kind of operators are the product of at least half a decade of training at a minimum, and that's with the right kind of soldiers. By 2000, you might have units that have the "Delta" or "SEAL Team 6" label, but quality-wise, they'd be a shadow of their former selves.

[oldschoolgm]

Originally Posted by Raellus

It depends on the mission. Perhaps if you are referring to SOF troops acting in an advisory role. But for "direct action" type operators, casualty rates were actually higher than typical line units. LRRP/Ranger teams often suffered close to 100% casualty rates (with the majority of casualties consisting of WIA). Some SOG commands suffered over 200% casualty rates with soldiers returning to active duty after recovering from wounds again and again. Although SEAL and Marine Recon teams sustained casualties at a lower rate, they were still significant.

I have to agree here and I probably should have talked further on it earlier, DA teams or even units involved in those type of misions would have horrific attrition rates in this kind of war. And I was thinking more in terms of the Advisory troops and purely reconnaissance units. That is why I would think meeting a SEAL in the year 2000 in the game would be rare indeed, but to see SF troops that were either advisor or CIV/PSY Ops type operators probably wouldn't be so rare.

As I've pondered this further and read more from the sourcebooks and modules, a re-evaluation is probably in order.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

I have to agree here and I probably should have talked further on it earlier, DA teams or even units involved in those type of misions would have horrific attrition rates in this kind of war. And I was thinking more in terms of the Advisory troops and purely reconnaissance units. That is why I would think meeting a SEAL in the year 2000 in the game would be rare indeed, but to see SF troops that were either advisor or CIV/PSY Ops type operators probably wouldn't be so rare.

Even deep recon units would likely take heavy casualties. Vietnam-era LRRPs and SOG teams did, and they had access to all kinds of air support should they be compromised. In many- if not most- cases, air support was the only reason teams that were detected made it back to base alive. After '97, recon teams would likely have little to no air support when in the field. Operating many miles behind enemy lines, a compromised team would be in big trouble. It wouldn't be unusual to lose entire 5-7 man deep recon teams. That is some serious attrition. And, as a couple of posters have already pointed out, the training to produce soldiers capable of carrying out these types of operations is rather lengthy and involved. Replacing experienced recon troops with quality would be difficult.

Also, after '97, field commanders would have little to no access to satelite or aerial reconaissance images so LRRP-type troops would probably see their workload increase. More frequent missions would most likely result in higher rates of attrition.

It pains me to bring all of this up as I am a huge, long-time fan of LRRP/Rangers and SOF recon troops in general. Also, these are the types of soldiers most RPers want to play so there needs to be a justification to allow them in games set in and after 2000. I just think the GM needs to be realistic about losses in such units. IMPO, in 2000, there would be only a handful of able-bodied prewar SOF operators available in most Corps areas. Much more common would be in-theater, post TDM, field trained (a-la the RECONDO school of the Vietnam era) pseudo-operators.

[Webstral]

I agree that by July 2000 in Europe, survivors with pre-war SO training would be very rare birds indeed. A primary effect of the war is its amateurization as a result of all the new faces in units that haven't collapsed. On the other hand, the survivors of the 1999 period of fighting should be fairly accomplished light fighters.


Webstral

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

To a degree, I have to agree with Leg in that the casualty rate after 4+ years of war for the SOF groups will probably be high. I suspect this would be especially true of the Navy Seals. They have the longest training time being at 2 years or so in the 80's and expanded to almost 3 years in the 90's. They also have a mission configuration that puts them directly in harms way in a much more significant manner than the other units.

The bigger threat to SEAL units is their pretty notorious reputation for poor decision making/mission planning, biting off more than they can chew, and lapses in professionalism leading to a pretty nasty casualty rate compared to other SOF units.

As for the Air Force units, I really see them becoming almost non-existent by 1999 due to lack of aircraft and the fact that these teams have the fewest numbers of any of others.

The lack of airpower would tend to cripple all SOF units. Lack of aircraft for infil/exfil, lack of airpower to support isolated SOF teams in contact, etc., all kind of impair the ability of special units to do a lot of special stuff.

Now here is where I have to start really considering a lot of factors. For the Special Forces, I think that the teams that were tasked with Direct Actions mission types their numbers would have definitely been depleted. But the Special Forces employs a number of different kinds of teams. The training teams as well as the teams with mission profiles more oriented with working with local populations would in my opinion have suffered less casualties. I believe this in that I would think they would go 'native' and blend into local populace and work to develop a significant guerilla type situation or even work towards the overall survival of the community they are in.

SF team specialization is largely notional in a lot of cases today, and did not exist in the Twilight War timeline to anywhere near the degree it does today. If the balloon went up in Europe, the main mission sets that were on the table back then all focused on covert insertion of teams behind the bad guys lines for whatever purposes (SR, UW, atomic demolitions). FID in the European theater just wouldn't exist.

As for Force Recon, it becomes a two fold issue as well I believe. Force Recon has two different types of teams. The units that do all the forwards scouting for the regiment and the teams that work for the higher command on gathering more significant strategic intelligence. The regimental recon teams I feel would have look just like what your outlining Leg, in that they are probably a combination more experienced and fully trained personnel and those that have been brought up on the fly due to battlefield needs. As for the Recon teams that operate more independently and I just not sure how severe the attrition rate would be given that they are more apt through mission directives to avoid combat.

Recon Marines are not all Force Recon, which, as the name suggests, were a recce asset for a Marine Amphibious Force. Battalion STA platoon guys and such weren't FR.

A thought to consider here, SOF teams operated round the clock in Vietnam with a significantly lower attrition rate than the line units deployed there.

I think it's probably more accurate to say that American casualties were lower among SOF units, but if you factor in the indigenous forces involved in Mike Forces, CIDG units, SOG recon teams and whatever else and it's a bit murkier, statistically.

[Rockwolf66]

I would see some SF units that do LRRP takeing a page from the Long range Desert Group and setting up cashe sites at the edge of their operational range. Basically you take a couple trucks and then drive out as far as you can and still make it back to base. Once there you drop off supplies and hide them. You repeat until you have enough supplies that you can go forward and set up a second supply cache.

One then repeats the process until one is far beyond enemy lines. One can also do such a thing on foot but that takes longer.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by oldschoolgm

As for the Air Force units, I really see them becoming almost non-existent by 1999 due to lack of aircraft and the fact that these teams have the fewest numbers of any of others.

Air Force special ops troops would become nonexistent as separate units for another reason: without aircraft, most of their rationale for existence is lost. Those that survive would get absorbed into whatever special operations units still exist, or into regular military units.

[Targan]

My last campaign was based around a core group of SF characters and the CO of the unit went out of his way to recruit/have transferred to his command other personnel with SF training. The majority of the unit were not SF troops. At the unit's height (back in the CONUS) the CO divided his SF types into teams of 7 to 10 men each based on specialty, but due to the difficulty of finding suitably trained personnel there were men pressed into roles they weren't specifically trained for. Also some of them were in the CONUS because they had been injured during the war and brought home for extended treatment.

For instance the "Blue" team was nominally Major Po's SEAL group but only three were actual SEAL operators (the team's CO was also PO's XO and he was a SEAL, a Master CPO who was a Vietnam-era SEAL who had been brought out of retirement and another SEAL who had been injured early in the war and had mostly recovered from his injuries) and the rest were SDV, SBU and Coast Guard boarding action specialists as well as a UK SBS operator.

The "Green" team was made up of a handful of USMC recon, Scout-Sniper and FAST troops with marine-type troops from several other nations as well (including a British Royal Marine Commando and a Filipino Marine recon specialist).

The "Black" team had a few US Army SF types mixed in with the only Delta operator the group ever encountered, SF troops from both Panama and Pakistan and a Sayeret Matkal operator who was an Ethiopian Jew.

Po also had a "Red" team consisting of men who had completed the Ranger course, a former SWAT team member and experienced front line combat personnel (infantry, cav and others).

The "Gold" team was a catch-all team for personnel with rare/important specialties such as a USAF F-15 pilot, a South African chopper pilot, a USN Corpsman, a USAF dog handler, an Army intel officer, a signals specialist and a number of technicians and engineers among others.

[Webstral]

Targan, that's a very interesting concept. Very interesting indeed. Where did this group operate?

Webstral

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Targan, that's a very interesting concept. Very interesting indeed. Where did this group operate?

Webstral

The core members of the unit were the survivors of the Poland part of the campaign but SOG 1 (as Po styled the unit) was fully brought together at Little Creek, Virginia in January 2001. A hefty chunk of the group's fast movers were from "Team Panama", a hodge podge of US and allied personnel who had been forced to find their own way back to the CONUS from Panama after that area was abandoned by MilGov forces (many of them had been operating in other parts of Central and South America and ended up in Panama too late to be evacuated with the rest of US forces).

I forgot to include one very useful component of Po's command, a four-man ISA team which had also come back from the south with "Team Panama". Unlike many of the other SF personnel whom Po basically poached from the units they were serving in in and around Norfolk, the ISA team was assigned to Po's unit by the MilGov commanders who tasked Po with recovering the NYC gold reserves. It was felt that the mission was important enough to justify assigning him that high level of specialist intelligence assets. The ISA guys were some very switched on dudes.

SOG 1 was engaged in aggressive reconnaissance of NYC, resulting in some vicious battles with harbour pirates as well as forces of The Dukes and Hizzoner the Mayor. There was also a nasty little shadow war going on between Po's men and an entrenched and very active CIA cell which was also looking for the gold reserves. SOG 1 ended up wiping out the CIA cell to the last man. That was a fun part of the campaign for me as GM.

[pmulcahy11b]

Team Gold sort of sounds like the rumored "Funny Platoon" in Delta -- full of strange but useful specialties.