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#1
11-16-2010, 03:27 PM
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Personal Gear
Here's a question,
Just how much gear do you, as the PD, allow your players to carry? My personal view is that giving the players a single change of coveralls and underwear doesn't consider that eventually the inside of the ole V-150 can soon make one wish to be the towel boy for a Texas High School Football Team, just to get clean again! So, I allow the players a rucksack for dismounted missions and a duffle bag to carry a few changes of clothing and personal gear. Besides, its amusing to watch how many players can't bear to be seperated from every item of gear. Not to mention being an evil PD and tagging some unfavorable mods to the ole fatigue table! 
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#2
11-16-2010, 03:53 PM
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I give the PCs a Personal Effects Satchel (found it on the Blog), and a Foot Locker, and in their Emergency Shelter that holds extra equipment and mission vehicles they have a smaller footlocker that holds things like spare eyeglasses, civilian clothes, important personal effects with significant emotional attachments since they are meant to have a life after the project.
I had thought of using the cargo container cache idea for the team's personal belongings so they would have their personal belongings when they build their own homes after the project had run it's coarse.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#3
11-17-2010, 08:50 AM
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I've always taken the approach of allowing each team member a box of personnel effects in the resupply caches. I've also added cases of sodas/beer, boxes of candy or chewing gum and have notes from the "Upgrade Support Group" giving best wishes and good luck...
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#4
11-17-2010, 09:34 AM
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I allow 1 duffel bag in one of the supply caches and 3 varied size foot lockers and 2 duffel bags what I call the "nesting cache". The first would probably be accessed during normal first year operations and the second would be accessed when the project decided on a semi permanent location for the team.
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#5
11-26-2010, 07:56 PM
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I recall you once made a great case against coveralls and having to get out of them simply to go to the bathroom! The Basic Issue seems to lack basics like a towel, boonie hat, etc. Could be implicitly included, I guess, with the underwear and rain gear, but still annoying. One problem is that with a large allowable personal gear allowance, some players have the immediate urge to basically ditch almost everything MP-related (beret, coveralls, weapon if allowed) and "go native" or at least end up looking like some survivalist nut-job or US Army deserter. Hey, if the Project thought this was a good idea, they would have allowed personnel almost complete freedom to pack their own kit. Instead, I believe a consistent Project image and "brand identity" should be maintained. This isn't just something common to the military, many companies enforce a dress code and code of behaviour not just to be control freaks but because they somehow calculate there is a tangible or intangible benefit to doing so. (A player in my game jokingly complained that it was fun to customise the uniform and I replied I have all the "Aftermath!" books and no one tells you what to wear in that game...) Not all Project issue makes sense and there are puzzling lapses. (See the wide-brimmed hat/towel above, not to mention wider issue of NODs and Kevlar vests. That's just another thing that makes TMP a distinctive RPG, not all the choices are the "best possible" under all circumstances. Reposted from another list: Quote:
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#6
11-27-2010, 09:03 AM
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__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis. Last edited by kato13; 11-27-2010 at 09:14 AM.
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#7
11-27-2010, 05:00 PM
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Sure, and if wishes were horses, beggars would ride! Also, I want to make clear you make good points that are difficult to refute logically. (As always, I don't necessarily believe you're wrong or I'm right, merely there are other perspectives to be shared.) In real life, even the best most lavishly equipped military (and paramilitary) forces have constant issues with gear in different conflicts and situations. (Not just military but police, rescue, NGOs large and small, etc.) It seems like a constant that there will always be poor choices in procurement and logistics. For the record, I certainly do believe that you (or I, or a chimp) could do better. Strangely, that's not the point. There are always constraints, budgets, even simple human error (which also defines major parts of the Project). We are free to pick and choose the "best" gear list to our hearts' content. In theory, the Project should be equipped to the best standards of 1987 (or whenever) with a fairly limitless budget. In practice, I think the Project won't be. A lot of thinking about TMP seems to revolve around the perpetual search for the "perfect" gear/weapons/vehicles and the optimal combinations thereof. Yet paradoxically, real life always lacks this perfection. So errors or "non-optimal" choices paradoxically add verisimilitude by reinforcing the characters are not living in a perfect world (because none of us do). That's realistic, it's human nature. It may also seem counter-intuitive, I know! For that matter, I can well believe that your experience with packing would lead you to doubt the numbers, but that's a technical issue. It's clear that MP personnel are traveling very light by modern (or even 80's) standards. Even if we take the numbers as correct, around 30kg of weapons and gear (including food for 2 weeks, which can be shitcanned) isn't that much at all and doesn't allow for cross-loading. We take for granted that what the teams are issued is all they're going to get, period, until they crack a cache (which should not be all that soon). It's possible that the original intention was to activate the Project, then do supplementary issues of things like toilet paper, NVGs, Kevlar in general as needs are assessed in the field. So as time goes on, their load will be added to as time goes on... like in real life. Tony
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#8
11-27-2010, 06:23 PM
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I never take anything personally, like the old saying goes opinions are like arseholes and everybody has at least one...(my wife claims I'm special, I have three)....
 For me, I actually enjoy all of the various takes on TMP, if this was real life AND TMP enjoyed a 50-year lead in...you can almost see 3-4 generations of gear being issued, not to mention the various attitudes of the frozen teams...care to game a team of hippies from the sixties? Or how about combining a team frozen in the first phase, with a team frozen in the '90s (hmmmmm, mental note). Not to mention that as teams got closer to War Day...lots of fun can be had with an evil PD...can you see the team opening the lockers and finding that they are armed with surplus M-1 carbines, maybe some Land Rovers, fresh from the fusion conversion facility, and a few cases of Mountain Home food, so sorry, we didn't have time to build your resupply cases, Supply Base Charlie is three hundred miles thataway. Maybe thats the strongest part off TMP, don't like the canon, feel free to modify!
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.
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#9
11-27-2010, 09:12 PM
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I think you may be thinking of "Aftermath!"? That game is intended to be completely customisable! The shitty parts of canon are part of what makes TMP distinctive from others games in the genre. Much like how crappy M16s, defective gear and an impossible political social situation make playing Recon set during the Vietnam war seem more authentic; modifying these details won't necessarily improve the scenario. This may surprise you but I started running TMP with fully customised gear lists. After a while the obsession with "perfect" guns and gear (not just me but everyone else) made me question what the point was. Players can suffer without the cool Humvees and G36s (or whatever) and learn to deal with it as a part of the scenario. Probably that's a little on the old-school side and I'm becoming more cranky in my old age!  If their PCs are carrying Stoners and Uzis, dressed in Resistweave coveralls and berets while hanging off the back of an XR311 or V-150 Commando the players bloody-well know they're playing The Freakin' Morrow Project, not some gussied-up Post-apoc RPG or Aftermath!/Twilight 2000 by another name. (Not that I don't like AM! and T2K on their own terms, of course.) Tony
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#10
11-28-2010, 08:01 AM
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 Take that canon material!!!LOL I don't think I've played a game in the last 30-some years strictly by canon. IMO when you find a system that fits your style, many players will stick with it, often to the bitter end! And whats wrong with that? One of the most entertaining games that I've ever played in was a mix of Star Wars/Vampire/Toon...it didn't make much sense, but IT WAS FUN!!!! And that's the strength of TMP, there is something for everyone...and if you don't like it...modify it!!!! (insert evil laugh!)
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.
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#11
11-28-2010, 01:15 PM
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My knowledge of Morrow Project actually started with my finding the freely distributed "Project Phoenix". Since my initial exposure to the concept of Morrow was outside canon, I have obviously never looked at canon as something fixed.
The philosophy that I have always followed in games (an to be honest, life) follow the words of my namesake. Absorb what is useful reject what is useless add what is specifically your own Every group is different in terms of what will keep them happy so the path to enjoyment for each will never be the same. Back to the topic at hand. The project provides about 100kg of material but I let the players chose which equipment will be in the bolthole, in one resupply cache and what additional material they will want in their nesting cache. My games are generally more about problem solving than survival, so I like giving them multiple tools and letting them use them creatively.
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#12
11-29-2010, 03:12 AM
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Ha, you should really consider switching to Aftermath!.  Quote:
 Speaking personally, I've used and played many systems with TMP (GURPS 3rd ed. comes to mind). If there is a problem, it's that other systems adapted to TMP tend to blend together and become generic (even when using a non-generic system to start). Having used TMP's canon system as a player and a PD, I can say it's a solid system that definitely captures the specific flavour of the game and the factors the designers wanted to emphasise. (To be clear, I mean the canon 3rd edition rules that have been cleaned up and fixed but not totally overhauled or replaced.) Some players couldn't care less what system they use and so it doesn't matter either way. Others are wedded to their favourite system to the "bitter end" and can't fathom using another (d20) for whatever reason. (I can't imagine drinking the Koolade that deeply, but I guess some people like what they like!) Maybe I'm just getting conservative in my old age, I sometimes feel that change simply for the sake of change is not always a net positive. Quote:
I've had loads of fun playing similarly stupid and silly games, laughed my ass off and enjoyed myself immensely. You can't be dark and serious all the time! That said, RPG "lite" games don't affect me on the same level a serious game does, and that can be a good thing, too. Quote:
These original elements come together to lend a definite authenticity to TMP that is not matched in other post-apoc or generic RPGs. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that anyone not following canon is "wrong" or running a bad game. But blowing up canon doesn't automatically make it better, either!  Tony Last edited by helbent4; 11-29-2010 at 06:34 AM.
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#13
11-29-2010, 04:10 AM
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I couldn't agree more, and you can do this while remaining true to canon. In life we have to take the good with the bad, and that's a part of TMP as well (at least with regards to equipment if not faulty rules). It's part of what makes it feel "real" and not just some survivalist fantasy. Quote:
Mainly because this is demonstrably untrue. How many groups demand serious and significant changes to Star Wars or Star Trek to suit them or, gosh darn it, they just won't have fun? I think all groups (including TMP) are similar in one important respect: they want to have fun. Most changes to TMP do not alter that in any way or add to the "fun" factor. They just reflect the personal likes, dislikes, preferences and prejudices of the PD, and most of these changes are actually kind of pointless. That said, problem-solving should always be a primary focus of TMP. Firepower and equipment use frequently take the place of brains and imagination, placing some kind of reasonable boundaries can foster creativity when players are forced to improvise. Tony
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#14
11-29-2010, 10:00 AM
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In some past games, I've been accused of handing out way too much gear, ok, so what! I use it as a tool to split the team up (and as an aside, have you ever noticed how every team just has to dig up all of the caches at one time, just so they can huddle on top of the mountain of treasure..errrr gear?). Got to admit, that I perfer to use the Cold War/WWIII setup, it just feels more "right" than the various updated oops! Quote:
edit kato13 fixed quotes (end quote needs to be [/quote])
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis. Last edited by kato13; 11-29-2010 at 10:22 AM.
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#15
11-29-2010, 11:24 AM
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Some people like the restrictions of canon and some do not. Personally I see a ton of flaws in logic in the project as written. The people I game with are very detail oriented individuals (a forensic account, a CTO, a human resources director, a Math professor, a doctor, and a couple of programmers) and flaws in the logic of the project would distract them. Trust me I have gone to movies with all of them and in this group suspension of disbelief is sometimes a hard thing to for them to achieve. They are generally a group of nitpickers. They are a fun, intelligent group, but they some times complain endlessly about very minor things. Con Air and Die Hard 2 come instantly to mind. You are right they don't complain as much about fantasy films. Star Trek and Star Wars exist in their own universe. You can easily explain away inconsistencies, just the same way you can say the 100 bugbears' food source is "magical" in D&D. Morrow (IMO) needs to more closely follow the rules of our world as it has 95% commonality during the planning stages. For me the project expecting someone to give up the current lives and all their connections to it and then to give them only the canon equipment is almost criminal. If it costs some huge amount of dollars to find a person, recruit them and freeze them, I don't see why equipping them with anything other than everything reasonable, makes any sense. Even if that would "enhance" game play. My players understand the limits of bureaucracy and would accept that things are never going to be even close perfect, but if the project does not have a coherent plan (after working on it for 40 years), IMO people are not going to sign up in the numbers needed. For example, if a canon team wakes up a year after the war (by accident) and 4 years before the majority of the project assets are activated, they would almost assuredly be dead. That is why I give them access to nearly a full year of food (with pitfalls potentially blocking access of course). You may think this is "pointless" to do this, but the same way that combat veterans will tweak the combat portion of games, my administrative "veterans" appreciate when I do the same to the Project's back end logistics. As a PD I can remove any equipment I want if I want to get it closer to the canon lists. Spoilage, seepage, bureaucratic oversight, plundered caches, irradiation, are just some of the tools I can use. However I like to start with a more logical starting point than the canon modules do in regards to project logistics. Note all of the above is my opinion and I would never say that what I think trumps others.
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#16
11-29-2010, 05:39 PM
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Rock on, dude!  I started where you are with regards to updating TMP, then after taking a hard look at a lot of assumptions and modifications that have been made over the years (to timeline, gear) decided that canon deserved way more credit than people gave it. (Which is generally none.) Sure, change if needed, but not change for change's sake or because that's what everyone does! Most of canon is authentic to the time and place it was made. This is what I see as the real strength of TMP, not as a generic game where PDs share a loose brand identification but little else. To go a little further off-topic, I think the commonly-held assumption among TMP players that the Cold War doesn't matter and no one cares about is dead wrong. The wild success of Call of Duty: Black Ops would seem to bear this feeling out; this is a game that embraces "outdated" Cold War themes and technology, yet millions of gamers (many of whom weren't born until the Cold War was almost over or later) don't seem to have been turned off by this. You can argue that many different factors are responsible for Black Ops' popularity but no one can reasonably claim that the introduction of Cold War themes, background and weapons/technology has seriously hurt the franchise. I don't think it would hurt TMP either to embrace its Cold War roots, and this includes the canon timeline and gear. Still, please accept my apologies for hijacking the this thread! It should be about what gear we lavish on our players. Tony Last edited by helbent4; 11-29-2010 at 06:50 PM.
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#17
11-29-2010, 06:40 PM
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I'll address this specifically: to clarify, I didn't refer to any of the above as "pointless", and my apologies if it was somehow taken as such. Speaking personally, I give the teams 6 months supplies total so we're basically on the same page in that regard. I think that gives them sufficient time to either establish themselves locally or have Prime arrange for some kind of extraction or resupply (perhaps by automatic supply base like in Starnaman). It's still a lot of food, either way. Quote:
With all due respect, you're really speaking to a point I didn't make. There certainly are flaws in Project organisation and logistics (that is, supply) that can be addressed within canon without completely reworking Project gear and (especially) the timeline. I won't regale you with a laundry list of players who've played my games (gear-heads, professionals of different stripes, combat veterans, etc.). Most of them didn't have serious problems with the Project organisation, once a few fixes that stayed within canon were implemented. To my knowledge none of them gave TMP a pass or felt it fatally suspended their disbelief because they had to make do with an Uzi instead of an M4, they just freakin' got the job done and I think they would do so even if equipped with SMLEs. (That's not to say that typical player expectations for gear by now is insanely high, but I find that players eventually adapt.) Project members in canon certainly do have adequate tools to accomplish the job, if playtesting (and personal experience as a player and PD) is any indication. We can always give the players more... and more... and more... but in the end the "gear queer" Project is what strikes me as pointless because the process is endless and what's "better" or "sufficient" is all a matter of personal opinion. I think it's reasonable the Project would equip their teams to a minimum level (which for canon is still quite a lot) on the assumption they can requisition more through their supply chain. This is logical and realistic; teams were not being sent to another planet where resupply was impossible or at least very difficult. After all, teams are intended to be part of a large organisation that made plans to have every single team part of a robust and well-supplied logistical chain supported by a series of field teams, installations of different sizes (manned and unmanned) up to and including permanent depots (per TM 1-1). Tony
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#18
11-29-2010, 07:58 PM
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I respect that you want to keep the weapons and time line unchanged, but if I want to change to non-standard calibers and steel cartridges to reduce the value of stolen weapons and ammo, what difference does it really make. If there is a logical reason in my world for the project to do so, I will. The original timeline from TM1-1 is cool, but again I started with Phoenix Project which was more open in the cause of the "ooops". They actually recommend 4 scenarios IIRC. I kinda like that my players might not know what world they are waking up in. One fun idea I have comes from the fact that I use timeshift equipment rather than cryotubes. I really would love to send them back to 1720 Virginia when they are expecting wake in 2150 KFS. The tech level and institutionalized slavery could keep them guessing until they noticed ultra low radiation levels. This is so far unrecognizable from canon that you might not consider it the same game, but I still think it would be a lot of fun to roleplay.
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#19
11-30-2010, 04:50 AM
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Heh, for some reason I had the impression your players would revolt if the canon material and timeline was used! Good to hear it's not an issue with them. Quote:
I do think while it's understandable that the Project doesn't want anyone to use captured weapons or ammunition, it would be a logistical nightmare to adopt an oddball cartridge for this end that can't be shared with others nor can teams use common calibres. Why not equip your teams with nunchaku and "sharks with laser beams attached to their frickin' their heads"? You can make a logical case for almost ahything!  Oh hey, what about this?  To be clear, I'd have fun with almost any game, as long as it was well-run. I think TMP makes a real connection with the canon material, but I still love the post-apoc genre in general. Tony Last edited by helbent4; 11-30-2010 at 05:05 AM.
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#20
11-30-2010, 01:26 PM
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My thought on an additional advantage of non-standard round sizes is that a loss of a cache does not greatly assist a warlord. My assumption is that 5 years out 75-90% of pre-ooops rounds might have been expended. A majority of those rounds were directed by Americans at fellow Americans. Yes a number number were probably used for hunting but I am sure a pretty large number people died from firearms. So the project wakes and there is a huge influx of new ammo out there. My thought is that the project whose primary goal is rebuilding might not want to upset the delicate balance which might have established itself after 5 years, with massive firefights diminishing into the occasional potshots over that time. An "oddball" caliber might keep a little more control of what is done with the ammo held by the project. That is not to say that trading a few common rounds with hunters might not make sense as well. However I had not come up with a replacement for 7.62mm yet so the whole concept might be moot. Last edited by kato13; 11-30-2010 at 01:51 PM.
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