Scottish Navy

[RN7]

Well control of the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency would give Scottish Nationalist a fleet of sorts.

HQ: Edinburgh (Destroyed)
Personnel: 300
Fleet: 4 Fisheries Protection Vessels (Some MG's),2 Reims Vigilant F-406 (Inverness)

[Rainbow Six]

Possibly, but possibly not...it partly depends on one's interpretation of the Strategic Defence Review at the end of the Cold War (aka Options for Change) and what effect it might have had. Prior to Options Fishery Protection was handled by Royal Navy patrol ships based out of Rosyth.

Out of the big three Navy bases in the UK at the time (Rosyth, Portsmouth, and Plymouth) Rosyth was generally perceived to be the biggest loser of the Cold War drawdown with many of its tasks being transferred to the two English bases during the start of the 90's. We've already mentioned the nuclear sub refitting in another thread; the Fishery Protection Squadron ended up in Portsmouth. Marine Scotland (as they now call themselves I believe) took over the task in the mid 1990's.

However it's possible, certainly in a V1 timeline, that Rosyth would have remained on an equal footing with the other two bases, so might have retained the Fishery Protection Squadron. Probably less likely in V2.

To be honest, an intact Rosyth (it wasn't on the canon target lists and is far enough from Edinburgh and Grangemouth to avoid any serious damage) is one reason why I find the situation in Scotland described in the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom somewhat...implausible. At the very minimum an intact Rosyth, together with RAF Pitreavie Castle (closed in 1996 IRL) which was just a couple of miles down the road, should have enabled HMG to maintain a decent presence in the area imho.

[Mohoender]

What are these fisheries control ship?

located in Scotland prior to the war I, so far,identified
- 4 Archer-class Patrol Crafts (1 Glasgow, 1 Aberdeen, 2 Clyde River)
- 2 Attacker-class Patrol Crafts (1 Glasgow and 1 Aberdeen)
- 3 Sulisker-class FPV (Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency)
- 2 FPV: Jura and Westra (Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency)
- 8 Sandown-class Minehunters are home ported at Faslane (Of course many might not be commissioned before the nukes but with the war coming I would instead expect the class to be commissioned faster than IRL)
- 3 River-class Minehunters

At Faslane (from 1993) was also based the Northern Ireland Squadron (quite some more OPV).

Of course, Faslane could have been nuked but it is not rated as such if I refer to the "survivors guide to the UK". What about it?

That base's fate should be interesting. It seems that the commachio group had left it what about the rest?

[Rainbow Six]

The Fishery Protection Ships are supposed to enforce fishing regulations - basically make sure there are no illegal trawlers in the area, no one is exceeding EU quotas, that sort of stuff.

Faslane is the home port for the UK's nuclear sub fleet. The subs themselves would probably be at sea at the start of the nuclear exchange, however I'd have thought the base would have warranted a nuke. If it is intact then again you have a large number of Royal Navy personnel in the area who for the most part I would expect to stay loyal to the Crown and not a Scottish Separatist State.

There was also an American sub base along the coast from Faslane at Holy Loch (IRL it closed in the 1990's). Again, Survivor's Guide to the UK leaves this intact. ISTR there was also a US Navy SEAL presence in Scotland during the Cold War - might have been at RAF Machrihanish...

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Faslane is the home port for the UK's nuclear sub fleet. The subs themselves would probably be at sea at the start of the nuclear exchange, however I'd have thought the base would have warranted a nuke. If it is intact then again you have a large number of Royal Navy personnel in the area who for the most part I would expect to stay loyal to the Crown and not a Scottish Separatist State.

I tend to agree. Nevertheless, as the comachio group is described as protecting the oil rig in the North Sea I expect the base to have been evacuated (Probably seen as being too isolated). I would expect most ships (including the subs) to have been evacuated as well but what about the base? At least, it can make a very interesting scenario for a game in UK. Otherwise, it can have been taken over by the scots or by a group of marauders/pirates.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I tend to agree. Nevertheless, as the comachio group is described as protecting the oil rig in the North Sea I expect the base to have been evacuated (Probably seen as being too isolated). I would expect most ships (including the subs) to have been evacuated as well but what about the base? At least, it can make a very interesting scenario for a game in UK. Otherwise, it can have been taken over by the scots or by a group of marauders/pirates.

Yep, those are all good points...perhaps an evacuation sometime at the start of 1998 might be possible? If it was being completely evacuated I'd suggest the Navy would probably blow up everything of value rather than leave it...alternatively perhaps a small force was left behind for security and it's them who turn marauder? Another option might be for refugees from the Glasgow area to take it over.

[RN7]

I'd say that Fishery Protection ships based in Scotland were likely to have stayed there, as it a lot easier to send patrol ship to the North Atlantic and North Sea from Rosyth than from Portsmouth and Plymouth.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Survivor's Guide to the UK leaves this intact.

Regarding sub bases, as almost all subs where on the bottom by the time of the nukes, my thoughts are their bases would hold only a secondary, even tertiary significance to strike planners. They're still important facilities, but without the vessels to service, their usefulness is dramatically decreased.
With only a limited exchange, and politics/military command restricting the number released for use, some hard decisions would have to be made on relative worth. An oil refinery is obviously much more important and so would suffer a strike, while an idle facility with little likelyhood of reactivation in the near term would score a pass.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Possibly, but possibly not...it partly depends on one's interpretation of the Strategic Defence Review at the end of the Cold War (aka Options for Change) and what effect it might have had. Prior to Options Fishery Protection was handled by Royal Navy patrol ships based out of Rosyth.

Rainbow,

To my understanding, Options for Change in the UK began in 1990 when it was clear the Cold War was ending and an attack by the Soviet Union was becoming much less likely.

In T2K v2/2.2, the hardliner coup in the Soviet Union occurred in mid-1991 and it would seem likely by the invasion of China in 1995 the Eastern and Western blocs would be headed for confrontation. It seems highly likely the changes mandated by Options for Change would be halted and likely completely reversed with increased defence spending. In other words, Options for Change would be as dead as the Peace Dividend.

Tony

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Rainbow,

To my understanding, Options for Change in the UK began in 1990 when it was clear the Cold War was ending and an attack by the Soviet Union was becoming much less likely.

In T2K v2/2.2, the hardliner coup in the Soviet Union occurred in mid-1991 and it would seem likely by the invasion of China in 1995 the Eastern and Western blocs would be headed for confrontation. It seems highly likely the changes mandated by Options for Change would be halted and likely completely reversed with increased defence spending. In other words, Options for Change would be as dead as the Peace Dividend.

Tony

Tony,

You may well be right. To be honest, I've only ever really paid much attention to V1; by the time V2 came out lack of players meant I'd more or less stopped playing T2K, so I've never really went into V2 in any great detail.

For my sins I'm an unashamed V1 fanboy

Dave

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

I'd say that Fishery Protection ships based in Scotland were likely to have stayed there, as it a lot easier to send patrol ship to the North Atlantic and North Sea from Rosyth than from Portsmouth and Plymouth.

I totally agree the ships would have stayed in Scotland, however if they're at an intact Rosyth without Options it's probably still a Royal Navy Squadron, which makes it much less likely that they would side with Scottish Separatists imho.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Regarding sub bases, as almost all subs where on the bottom by the time of the nukes, my thoughts are their bases would hold only a secondary, even tertiary significance to strike planners. They're still important facilities, but without the vessels to service, their usefulness is dramatically decreased.
With only a limited exchange, and politics/military command restricting the number released for use, some hard decisions would have to be made on relative worth. An oil refinery is obviously much more important and so would suffer a strike, while an idle facility with little likelyhood of reactivation in the near term would score a pass.

Leg, fair point.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Tony,

You may well be right. To be honest, I've only ever really paid much attention to V1; by the time V2 came out lack of players meant I'd more or less stopped playing T2K, so I've never really went into V2 in any great detail.

For my sins I'm an unashamed V1 fanboy

Dave,

One nice thing about v2/2.2 is that they consciously set it in an alternative timeline that diverges from ours in 1991, where the hardliner coup succeeds in 1991. I guess they recognised it was difficult to keep revising the background over the years, this was what happened our timeline was irrelevant.

Many GMs like the v1 background, I try to have it both ways. That is, make the divergence point 1991 but incorporate some political elements from v1 like a communist Poland (due to the communist government overturning election results, and so on) and other states reverting to communism after the failure of the reformers in the USSR.

Tony