US Army AAA in T2K

[schnickelfritz]

Does anyone have a better suggestion than the "never was" M691 Diana for US AAA units so designated by the folks at GDW?

While I can understand the need to have a AAA gun vehicle that can keep up with the Abrams, using an Abrams hull to make a AAA vehicle seems to be more than a bit of a waste.

If I had to pick one, I'd go with the M113 or LAV based PIVAD. Even the M757 Blazer based on the M-2 Bradley seems a better option. You have more mobility, more options with the Stingers, and more range with a 25mm over the 20mm Vulcan. Improve the sensors over the PIVAD and it seems like you've made all of the necessary improvements.

Any thoughts?

Dave

[Raellus]

I agree that the "Diana" seems like a very weak weapons suite for an expensive Abrams chasis. The v1.0 U.S.A.V.G. was a stopgap vehicle so I doubt too many were produced. I'm sure combat testing proved that it lacked sufficient punch for the price. My vote is for something mounted on a Bradley chasis. I like to try to stick to the v1.0 U.S.A.V.G. as much as possible so the M757 Blazer or the M990 (plate G2) would be my picks.

[Panther Al]

I always liked the Diana, true it had its downsides, but I thought it made some sense to base it on the M1, after all, with the replacement of the M1 with the M1A1, its not unreasonable that the old M1's was diverted to produce it with a simple turret replacement, cheaper than buying a whole new vehicle.

However, I agree, its not the best option despite the fondness I have for it. Honestly, I think a gun/missile system based on the Brad would make a lot more sense for various reasons - hence the M6 Linebacker. One of the things that the procurement process got right for once.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well for starters the LAV based system didn't have the cross country ability of the M2 or M1 chassis based system, and the M113 chassis based system couldn't keep up.

It was one of the many problems that the US Army faced in the 1980s. It was a time when the military was expanding, but at the same time they were trying to keep the number of items in the inventory down to bare bones as much as possible. It is part of the reason why the Army never adopted the LAV-25 with the M2/M3 and M1 family were just being fielded.

Looking at the Isreali Defense Forces using their Main Battle Tank as a base for their new APC, is one of few countries to go this way. So having Diana based on the M1 chassis isn't too far fetch.

[Panther Al]

Yep, the IDF has done a lot of things that makes a lot sense, and should be watched closely because of that. Before they developed the M109 mods that resulted in the Paladin, they seriously worked on making a SPG based on the Merk Hull as well called Slammer. Couple that with the ARV they developed (I don't know if they produced it number) they had a real good chance to have a whole stable of AFV's with immense parts commonality.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yes they did, it one of the things that I think the US military in all branches has limited itself in lot of ways.

[HorseSoldier]

Do you think that it is way off to think that they might be developing this new caliber/round so that should invasions (in either direction) happen any captured ammo or weapons would be of limited value?

The IDF does stuff that makes sense for the IDF in its specific strategic and operational setting. Doesn't mean their stuff is a universal solution or a good idea for anyone else. Sometimes means their ideas aren't even a good idea for the IDF -- their refusal to maintain a balanced force structure with adequate infantry very, very nearly cost them the entire nation in the '73 war.

Heavy Assault Carriers are an idea the IDF has embraced that only make sense in you're a nation with profoundly internal lines, doing low-intensity conflict, with a surplus of tank hulls laying around, and incredibly casualty adverse (in their case due to small population base).

For conventional operations they bring less to the table than Infantry Fighting Vehicles -- and (western) IFVs have proven pretty survivable on the battlefield, making even the HAC's main claim to fame dubious.

For LIC, they don't do anything an MRAP doesn't do, except eat up massively larger amounts of logistics with higher maintenance demands, lower fuel mileage, and such.

So, not a bad idea for the IDF, but not a great idea. Various theories about Abrams based assault carriers have been pushed (engineer vehicle was one that made the pages of Armor back in the 90s) but no one has gone for it.

[Matt Wiser]

Don't remember if it was on the old board or not, but there was a proposal for an air-defense M-1 variant. Radar guidance, twin 35-mm guns, and a dozen ADATS missiles. Variant was provisionally called the M1AGDS, IIRC.

[Mohoender]

I like the idea of MATT but I would go more simply with an M1 mounting a German Gepard turret with twin 35mm. More punch than the 25mm and a turret that is readily available and need no development. An other interesting vehicle would be to have the trial ADATS-Bradley going to production.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I like the idea of MATT but I would go more simply with an M1 mounting a German Gepard turret with twin 35mm. More punch than the 25mm and a turret that is readily available and need no development.

Sounds badass.

[Matt Wiser]

About the only problem with that is the NIH syndrome, which infects the Pentagon. If GDLS (General Dynamics Land Systems) had their own turret design, with radar and twin 35-mm, and offered that to the Army, in a competition with Gepard, guess which would likely be the winner? Unless Congress dictated an off-the-shelf purchase, in which case Gepard turrets on the M-1 chassis would be the likely solution.

[Legbreaker]

Another problem with the Gepard turret is that it may not be as available as you think. How many have Germany got? How many are they producing? Has any other nation got them?
How many "spares" may there be in wartime?

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, I'm just not so sure it would be feasible due to supply issues.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

In regards to the Gepard turret, the numbers in service in the 1980s-1990s were roughly the following: -
West Germany 377
Belgium 55
the Netherlands 95

There are also other off-the-shelf turrets that could have been purchased (like the Gepard turret, these systems were designed to be fitted to tank hulls).
Marconi Marksman link 1 link 2 link 3
OTO-Melara Otomatic link 1 (no pics but has links to images) link 2

[Mohoender]

Acording to the Jane's 1984-1985, the Gepard's turret is rated under "international" (NATO). It is also stated that it can be installed on most MBTs including M48 and M60. Nothing was said at the time about the M1 but the tank was just going in production.

Leg, I was not thinking of German produced turret (except may be for the first batch) but of licenced built turrets.

In addition to the turret systems already sited you have the Thompson-CSF Sabre twin 30mm.

[Legbreaker]

Fair enough. The concept is certainly doable, the only real issue is which system would be used and would the purse strings be opened wide enough, early enough for it to be useful (bugs to work out, limited numbers on the battlefield, etc).

Once the war had been raging for a while and a few spare M1 bodies were laying about, I can see field mods springing up. Throw a towed 20mm PIVAD, captured ZU-23-2 or even a 40mm Bofors on where the turret used to be, strap it all down with chewing gum and fencing wire and you've got yourself an effective infantry destroyer.

Might even see some armour plating bolted on here and there to try and protect the gun crews a little.

[Abbott Shaull]

Thats the problem back then there wasn't much off the shelf buying. LAV-25 was one of the few exceptions...

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

About the only problem with that is the NIH syndrome, which infects the Pentagon. If GDLS (General Dynamics Land Systems) had their own turret design, with radar and twin 35-mm, and offered that to the Army, in a competition with Gepard, guess which would likely be the winner? Unless Congress dictated an off-the-shelf purchase, in which case Gepard turrets on the M-1 chassis would be the likely solution.

And you can rest assured that if the DoD held bidding for a new ADA system, that the US-based manufactuers will go all out to out-bid any foreign builder...

Anybody remember the fun and games that Smith & Wesson pulled when the M-9 contract was let out? For a while there I thought Beretta and S&W would hold gunfights out in the parking lot!

When Beretta won the trails, S&W had no problems with calling in their lobbyists and their in-house congressmen and throwing a monkey wrench into the approval process, they managed to delay the M-9 for almost two years...for a major contract like a new ADA system...you would think that the Cyberpunk game universe had come to life!

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The IDF does stuff that makes sense for the IDF in its specific strategic and operational setting. Doesn't mean their stuff is a universal solution or a good idea for anyone else. Sometimes means their ideas aren't even a good idea for the IDF -- their refusal to maintain a balanced force structure with adequate infantry very, very nearly cost them the entire nation in 1972

Granted by all means, some of the solutions will be to problems only they will face, but on the whole, they have been ahead of a lot of trends in modern warfare.

Back on point, does anyone know what the US is using for AD now that they benched the linebacker?

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Back on point, does anyone know what the US is using for AD now that they benched the linebacker?

It looks like they're down to Stinger teams and Avenger HMMWVs. Gun systems seem to be completely dead... which, if true, bespeaks a high degree of (over?)confidence in our air superiority.

- C.

[Mohoender]

I agree with everything which is said but we are talking of a war situation and that changes a lot of things. Of course, no chance that the element would be built outside US but taking over a foreign design (especially when it is only a part of it) has never been a problem.

I just remind you that without UK and their Merlin engine, the P-51 Mustang would have remained an unremarkable aircraft despite having a fantastic airframe.

Concerning a US army ADA system in T2K, the situation would have been exactly that. The DIVAD had just failed lamentably and they were pressed by time. As a result, I could very well see foreign sytems being adopted with let say "Ford Aerospace" being tasked with building the turrets and "General Dynamics Land System" assembling the vehicle (plus a fiar number of sub-contractors).

Then, it will possibly be operating in teams with Bradley-ADATS. Just an opinion.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

And you can rest assured that if the DoD held bidding for a new ADA system, that the US-based manufactuers will go all out to out-bid any foreign builder...

And have "unforeseen" cost overruns once manufacture started...

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

It looks like they're down to Stinger teams and Avenger HMMWVs. Gun systems seem to be completely dead... which, if true, bespeaks a high degree of (over?)confidence in our air superiority.

Indeed. It seems that the U.S. military has forgotten the lessons that the Brits learned the hard way in the Falklands, '82.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Concerning a US army ADA system in T2K, the situation would have been exactly that. The DIVAD had just failed lamentably and they were pressed by time. As a result, I could very well see foreign sytems being adopted with let say "Ford Aerospace" being tasked with building the turrets and "General Dynamics Land System" assembling the vehicle (plus a fiar number of sub-contractors).

I think GDW's existing material implicitly reflects this pressure. The Second Edition ACVH presents PIVAD, LAV-PIVAD (but somehow missing the actual LAV-AD), Chaparral, Diana, ADATS, Roland II, M990, Duster, and the M21/M22 and XM12 laser systems all as systems in at least limited U.S. service. My inference is that in the years immediately before the Twilight War, the Army was throwing multiple ADA platforms at the proverbial wall in the hope that one or more would stick.

- C.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Indeed. It seems that the U.S. military has forgotten the lessons that the Brits learned the hard way in the Falklands, '82.

Have the Brits remembered? I don't even know what AAA we're fielding these days.

[pmulcahy11b]

Although it's a vehicle that never was, I always liked the M990. It's fast, light, but reasonably armored, and carries a decent ammo load and decent-caliber guns. I put my own writeup of it on my Best SP Antiaircraft Vehicles that Never Were page, and gave it the name of "Chamberlain," after one of my heroes, Joshua Chamberlain of the Civil War.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Although it's a vehicle that never was, I always liked the M990. It's fast, light, but reasonably armored, and carries a decent ammo load and decent-caliber guns. I put my own writeup of it on my Best SP Antiaircraft Vehicles that Never Were page, and gave it the name of "Chamberlain," after one of my heroes, Joshua Chamberlain of the Civil War.

I'm totally behind you on that choice, of both fondness and the name for it. While I can't see anyway for it to exist in the real world, I felt that it was in game terms a very good example of how to put together an SPAAG: Base it off of a light vehicle for mobility, cost, and ease of production, and give it solid amounts of firepower, and armour it to the point where light cannon fire, from say a wild weasel, has to get lucky to put it out of action - but no more. As to the name, I spent more than a few years growing up in Maine, have relatives still living there, and the name you picked was pure win. Gotta love the civil war period for one thing: it was the last war where an amateur can leave college, having taught nothing even remotely close to anything military in nature, and still be able to lead troops not only well from a leadership point of view, but actually very successfully in end results in a battlefield environment.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Although it's a vehicle that never was, I always liked the M990. It's fast, light, but reasonably armored, and carries a decent ammo load and decent-caliber guns. I put my own writeup of it on my Best SP Antiaircraft Vehicles that Never Were page, and gave it the name of "Chamberlain," after one of my heroes, Joshua Chamberlain of the Civil War.

I'm with you on this one too. Your assessment is spot-on. Good call.

[schnickelfritz]

The Linebacker was withdrawn from service. I believe that the current solution is the HMMWV based Avenger.

Some times I believe it would be useful to have the idiots at the Pentagon who make decisions like the total clusterXXXX that has been the post cold war US forward AAA situation listen to Iraqi and German verterans of Gulf War 1 and Normandy who can tell them how paralyzing it is to be under relentless air attack.

If you can find a surviving German vet of the Eurpoean campaign, ask him what it's like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/TWQ-1_Avenger

-Dave

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm personally mystified by the decision to withdraw the Linebacker. I'd love to hear the thinking at the top on that decision. It seems like the perfect vehicle for its mission, since it's almost entirely a Bradley except for its mission fit and fits in perfectly with a mechanized or armored division.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

If you can find a surviving German vet of the Eurpoean campaign, ask him what it's like.

-Dave

That may be part of the problem -- except for a little bit during the Korean War, the Western militaries of the world know little of what it's like to be on the receiving end of air power. Perhaps we need to talk to the Israelis, but they haven't seen much on the receiving end of air strikes since the 1973 War, either.