Police forces in T2K?

[Mohoender]

The last thing I wrote about France just brought this to mind. What about the police forces? Any thoughts.

[Abbott Shaull]

For many communities with organized government left, they would be the backbone if not most of the local militia. Don't see many pure Police units, but certain units of militia may retain where they carry out most of police functions for their locale.

[Canadian Army]

It would depend what country and what police force you are talking about. Take Canada and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police as an example. In 1997 the force would be employing 20,000 sworn members in 15 divisions across Canada; all who would be exempt from any conscription (Military Draft). During the nuclear attack the vast majority of these officers would survive, because they are deployed outside of the urban areas. Also the Training Depot also survives which would mean new officers could be trained. The surviving Canadian governments would not use any Militia for policing duties; instead keeping them as a strategic reserve force to deal with marauders. They would also be more prone to use RCMP for policing duties in order to keep some resemblance of the old status quo.

[HorseSoldier]

The murky area is when the criminal threat exceeds the capabilities of law enforcement, which in T2K is going to be pretty common, both due to growth of Marauders/bandits on the one hand and attrition of police resources on the other (less fuel for vehicles, seriously reduced local intelligence when the phone system collapses, reduced commo intra-agency and interagency due to EMP and wear and tear, etc). Add in mission creep as the wheels come further and further off the whole system and it's not really a survivable scenario for any law enforcement agency as currently configured.

In the case of Canada (and typical of anyone else with a central government(s) trying to stay in business) I think that a legal mechanism to deputize militia or military units as needed for law enforcement missions. In this case I would think under RCMP direction, but involved a lot regardless.

I know at the time of the Mad Trapper incident back pre-WW2 the RCMP (or was it NWTMP at that time?) had First Nations special constables. Perhaps that practice/policy is revived and expanded post TDM.

[Canadian Army]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I know at the time of the Mad Trapper incident back pre-WW2 the RCMP (or was it NWTMP at that time?) had First Nations special constables. Perhaps that practice/policy is revived and expanded post TDM.

It was the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, but by the time of Mad Trapper incident it was the RCMP; created in 1920. The RCMP First Nations Community Policing Service was created in 1991 to replace the Indian Special Constable Program, but was still staffed by Special Constables. Today, in Canada the term Special Constable does not signify a police volunteer. Instead, they are sworn-in and employed by Police Services, law enforcement agencies or the provincial ministry responsible for law enforcement to undertake specific duties many of which require the powers of a police officer, such as University, Housing, and Transit Constables. Also Special Constables are generally not armed with firearms.

[B.T.]

Some thoughts about the situation in Germany:

The BGS (=Bundesgrenzschutz, roughly: federal border guard), most notably known for the deployment of the GSG 9, was some kind of paramilitary force. Their duties were different from the duties of Zoll (Customs). IRL the BGS was renamed Bundespolizei (Translation should be Federal Police, but bear in mind, that federal Germany is constituted in another way than the federal agencies of the US!) In a way the old BGS could be compared with Eastern Europe's Border Police Forces.

After the reunification in Germany and the treaty of Schengen (or is it Schengen agreemen in English?) the BGS was transferred to a real police agency. The former railroad polices (both from West and East Germany) were integrated.

So: in the ver.1 timeline, the BGS would be a highly trained military unit, supposingly fighting alongside the Bundeswehr.
In ver.2 the question arises, if the Schengen treaty would have come to life. If they was no Schengen, the BGS might have been reduced in size, but could still be existing, when the war begins.

The BGS servicemen (IRL!!) were trained as infantry. They were the first users of the G8 (better known as the H&K 21) and were equipped with light armored vehicles.

I'm trying to check some more information and will try to post something about the regular police agencies in Germany in the next days.

[dragoon500ly]

During the time frame of the Twilight War....

The Federal Border Police (Bundesgrenzschutz) are under German national command. They are not legally a military force, but they make a contribution to NATO. Created in 1951, the BGS are armed with German Army standard infantry weapons and wheeled armored fighting vehicles, undergo military-style training and are under the control of the Federal Ministry of the Interior.

The BGS are divided into Field Units (Grenzschutztruppe) and the Border Guard Individual Service (Grenzschutzeinseldienst) which contains only 1,000 of the BGS 23,500-man strength and is responsible for passport and immigration matters. The Field Units are organized into light infantry battalions, 650-men each, made up of three rifle companies and a headquarters and support company with reconnaissance, armored car, communications, emergency support and maintenance platoons. In addition to standard German Army equipment, the BGS also makes extensive use of standard Police equipment. The BGS also has naval and aviation units.

The BGS operates a number of armored cars not used by the Heer, such as the British Saladin and the Brazilian UR-416.

With most of the strength along the inter-German border, the BGS is capable of screening and scouting duties in the event of an invasion, but their alck of modern antitank weapons limits thier ability to delay an attacker. They are also responsible for damage control, disaster relief, and rear-area security duties.

Each Land of the Federal Republic has a Police Alert Force (Bereitschaftpolizei) organized in battalions, deployed in barraks and equipped with light armored cars and automatic weapons.

The German armed forces are forbidden to operate in Berlin, their place is taken by a 15,000-strong police force, of which 75% have a paramilitary role. They are reinforced by the 5,000-man Volunteer Police Reserve. The Bereitschaftpolizei) of West Berlin are equipped with a full range of weapons, including antitank weapons. The other police forces also have a substantial military role.

This was pulled from Armies of NATO's Central Front...

From my own experience, I was stationed with the 3/2 ACR during '82-85 and worked a lot of patrols with the BGS. I was always impressed with their professionalism. Their biggest advantage was that they worked the border 24/7 and had just about every trail and logging road memorized. They also had an in-depth knowledge of the workings of what was going on on the other side of the Iron Curtin. Some of my best spotting reports came on joint patrols with the BGS...

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by B.T.

Some thoughts about the situation in Germany:

The BGS (=Bundesgrenzschutz, roughly: federal border guard), most notably known for the deployment of the GSG 9, was some kind of paramilitary force. Their duties were different from the duties of Zoll (Customs). IRL the BGS was renamed Bundespolizei (Translation should be Federal Police, but bear in mind, that federal Germany is constituted in another way than the federal agencies of the US!) In a way the old BGS could be compared with Eastern Europe's Border Police Forces.

After the reunification in Germany and the treaty of Schengen (or is it Schengen agreemen in English?) the BGS was transferred to a real police agency. The former railroad polices (both from West and East Germany) were integrated.

So: in the ver.1 timeline, the BGS would be a highly trained military unit, supposingly fighting alongside the Bundeswehr.
In ver.2 the question arises, if the Schengen treaty would have come to life. If they was no Schengen, the BGS might have been reduced in size, but could still be existing, when the war begins.

The BGS servicemen (IRL!!) were trained as infantry. They were the first users of the G8 (better known as the H&K 21) and were equipped with light armored vehicles.

I'm trying to check some more information and will try to post something about the regular police agencies in Germany in the next days.

I am sure by 1999 and 2000 whatever is left of these forces would operating under direct Army control since the German Army is last remains of any organized Government above local levels Kinda like how the BRB in Czech and Poland are now operating Army control for the most part.

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

It was the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, but by the time of Mad Trapper incident it was the RCMP; created in 1920. The RCMP First Nations Community Policing Service was created in 1991 to replace the Indian Special Constable Program, but was still staffed by Special Constables. Today, in Canada the term Special Constable does not signify a police volunteer. Instead, they are sworn-in and employed by Police Services, law enforcement agencies or the provincial ministry responsible for law enforcement to undertake specific duties many of which require the powers of a police officer, such as University, Housing, and Transit Constables. Also Special Constables are generally not armed with firearms.

Ah -- Special Constable might not be a good term for deputized military elements, then. So are the First Nations special constables currently armed or unarmed? It sounds kind of like the Village Public Safety Officers were have here in AK (basically unarmed police working in Bush villages -- they're reliant on the State Troopers for anything requiring firearms for enforcement . . . typically making them the only person in the whole village who isn't armed . . .).

[rcaf_777]

In the US I see local Sheriff being dual hated having his deputies who take care of law enforcement and he also commands the local milita, I could also see some officers of the state police apointed to key positions with in the state guard, and have the State police having one or two officers assigned to each state guard unit to monitor the people with guns

[HorseSoldier]

From my own experience, I was stationed with the 3/2 ACR during '82-85 and worked a lot of patrols with the BGS. I was always impressed with their professionalism. Their biggest advantage was that they worked the border 24/7 and had just about every trail and logging road memorized. They also had an in-depth knowledge of the workings of what was going on on the other side of the Iron Curtin. Some of my best spotting reports came on joint patrols with the BGS...

In a traditional WW3 scenario in Europe, I think the BGS units would have been plowed under and out of the game within the first 24 hours or so, but in the T2K German reunification scenario, I'd think they'd still be intact and doing something inside Germany's borders. (They could, for instance, help explain what is passing for order in various parts of Germany where the published OOBs show no units anywhere in the area at all.)

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

In a traditional WW3 scenario in Europe, I think the BGS units would have been plowed under and out of the game within the first 24 hours or so, but in the T2K German reunification scenario, I'd think they'd still be intact and doing something inside Germany's borders. (They could, for instance, help explain what is passing for order in various parts of Germany where the published OOBs show no units anywhere in the area at all.)

I would have to disagree, standing orders for the NATO units on the grenz was to report what was going on, pick off the Soviet recon if possible and to trade space for time. Even the German Army was prepared to give up the border area to allow time for the troops to organize their defensive positions and hit the Sovs in strength.

[HorseSoldier]

Light infantry formations with no anti-armor capability to speak of facing a classic Soviet steam roller offensive would have two options -- forget about trading ground for time and just run like hell or be obliterated.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

It would depend what country and what police force you are talking about. Take Canada and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police as an example. In 1997 the force would be employing 20,000 sworn members in 15 divisions across Canada; all who would be exempt from any conscription (Military Draft). During the nuclear attack the vast majority of these officers would survive, because they are deployed outside of the urban areas. Also the Training Depot also survives which would mean new officers could be trained. The surviving Canadian governments would not use any Militia for policing duties; instead keeping them as a strategic reserve force to deal with marauders. They would also be more prone to use RCMP for policing duties in order to keep some resemblance of the old status quo.

CA,

In my game, the RCMP still exists in Canada and provides policing services in different communities under government control, and in fact control all policing in Canada (outside Quebec). They tend to be more paramilitary (going back to their original role as "border police") along the lines of Gendarmerie. In areas not under government control, they form the base for local militia. Policing companies are formed using RCMP Auxiliaries.

Tony

[HorseSoldier]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

In the US I see local Sheriff being dual hated having his deputies who take care of law enforcement and he also commands the local milita, I could also see some officers of the state police apointed to key positions with in the state guard, and have the State police having one or two officers assigned to each state guard unit to monitor the people with guns

The US, at least in a lot of places, has the added issue of both conventional and asymmetric aspects of the three way civil war (and New America seems big on asymmetric stuff). In low action areas, dual hatting the local sheriff would probably work. In hotter sectors, even if not hot enough to warrant a full time presence of MilGov or CivGov regulars, it would probably be better to keep them separated. (I've always pictured CivGov favoring strong paramilitary police organizations as a counterbalance to a military their leaders don't entirely trust, but that's a different topic.)

How New America sets up law enforcement is probably an interesting question as well, come to think of it.

[Abbott Shaull]

Interesting thing in many Counties and Parishes had an elected Sheriff, by 2000 those regions that still had a person who claim the title of Sheriff. Well the it would be doubtful they were truly elected to the position, and in many cases would probably in some cases be all that is left of any type of Emergency Management and Law Enforcement left in the region. As well as being de facto head of the County level government or what is left of it.

In many communities the local Law Enforcement would make the core of the local militia like in many Cities, Towns, and Villages in Europe. With the bulk of the local militia working in the fields and stuff most of the time. While areas where military units were still in the located would only have slightly better local militia.

[Webstral]

I support Abbott's position. Where a civil government remains intact, the police most likely form the cadre/nucleus of the militia. Terminology will vary by location, but it seems likely that in many locations the police will handle routine actions, supplemented by the local militia as needed. How the police and the local militia interact with whatever military organization has nominal authority over the area also will vary from location to location.


Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

Well if one re-read the material most of the material from Armies of the Night, many of the "communities" their militia were largely ex-police officer and gangs members. One has to remember in the US there have been laws in which only during National Emergency and Martial Law are US military personnel are allowed to intervene. Even then it is clear what a military unit can and can not do.

Of course, how the local military unit Commander view these laws will vary with mileage. There are select documented cases where the local military commander took more drastic measures than other places. In many cases taking over the local government in the name of the of the US Government whether they are doing so for their own sakes or to secure things for their respective government.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

One has to remember in the US there have been laws in which only during National Emergency and Martial Law are US military personnel are allowed to intervene. Even then it is clear what a military unit can and can not do.

Abbott,

One might well remember, but I think that at some point in the Twilight War the US military has completely forgotten anything resembling constitutional or legal restrictions. To be charitable, perhaps the rationale is that such "peacetime" niceties and formalities are only temporarily put aside until some kind of order and normalcy is restored.

Tony

[Rodneye]

I like the police force of France and it is the best police force of the world which is very strict in case of law.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Abbott,

One might well remember, but I think that at some point in the Twilight War the US military has completely forgotten anything resembling constitutional or legal restrictions. To be charitable, perhaps the rationale is that such "peacetime" niceties and formalities are only temporarily put aside until some kind of order and normalcy is restored.

Tony

Yeah, I am sure there that the legacy as time pass gets lost as people who are in charge of units are trying to do what they think is best to save their command and in some case what left of the local population. One has to remember the units that are operating say the New England would have different out look than units say operating in Texas, Arizona, California, and Alaska.

Unit commanders far away from being on the Front would be hard press afterward to justify taking such action once the 'peace' is restored. While on the Front-lines areas it would be expected since their are enemy troops activity in the area.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Rodneye

I like the police force of France and it is the best police force of the world which is very strict in case of law.

Not a feeling I'm sharing but not the subject either.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Yeah, I am sure there that the legacy as time pass gets lost as people who are in charge of units are trying to do what they think is best to save their command and in some case what left of the local population. One has to remember the units that are operating say the New England would have different out look than units say operating in Texas, Arizona, California, and Alaska.

Unit commanders far away from being on the Front would be hard press afterward to justify taking such action once the 'peace' is restored. While on the Front-lines areas it would be expected since their are enemy troops activity in the area.

Abbott,

There will be local variations, of course. I would hope many military commanders would act in a noble and honourable manner towards both their commands and any civilians. A lot will depend on the local situation and the personality of the commander in question.

One also has to remember that the US military at large is operating in a situation that can charitably be described as "extra-legal" at best. The US military as a whole is already going to have to justify its actions in overthrowing civilian control in large areas of the country (whatever the moral or legal argument). Leadership is a top-down affair; local commanders taking their cues from above may likewise feel justified in doing what they feel is necessary under the circumstances despite what the law or precedent might say.

Tony

[Webstral]

I penned a few pieces a while ago regarding the policing phenomenon in New England leading up to and following the redeployment of US military forces to the Southwest and Pacific Northwest in 1998. At the heart of my work on the subject is the thesis that the military does comparatively little of the policing. The police continue to do that work, backed by local militia. The military tackles the big projects—the stuff that is too big for the cops to handle. This worked okay throughout much of the US during the first half of 1998 because armed groups that got too big for the cops to handle were prime targets for the military, who prefer set-piece battles anyway. The missing ingredient would have been militia who could have supplemented the police in actions that would have been too small for military support but too big for the police to handle.

Anyway, the large-scale deployment of US forces to the states bordering Mexico, Alaska, British Columbia, and Washington changed the security situation right across the country by incentivizing large-scale grouping of outlaws. If one wants to look at the issue in military terms (which is not necessarily the best way to look at it), in many parts of the country in early 1998 the lawless would have operated like guerillas. They might have been willing to fight the police, but they would not have wanted to attract the attention of the local Army unit with its APC and heavy weapons. Therefore, outlaw bands that grew large enough to hold their own against the police would have survived by moving well away from areas the military would have wanted to defend. Outlaw bands operating in the sticks would have presented a modest threat compared to the same groups operating in populated areas. The relative scarcity of resources in the sticks would have reduced the effectiveness of bandit groups. However, the absence of military might would have enabled bandit groups to coalesce and challenge the cops.

Obviously, my model is very simple and essentially devoid of nuance. However, in places where law and order were not immediately overwhelmed following the TDM, I think the model generally can be applied. This may be one of the reasons contributing to the decision by the creative minds at GDW to go with the drought. Once the population and local food production became more aligned, the situation would have become much more stable. I could see where some might not find this sort of thing much fun—especially if one plays Twilight: 2000 with The Road Warrior in mind.


Webstral