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#1
02-28-2011, 09:52 AM
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The Military Deployments of T2K
Like to throw out a couple of thoughts...
Does anyone else find the deployments of some of the powers to be, well, more than a little odd? For example, the 6th Light Infantry Division was formed to be the garrison for Alaska with the secondary mission of reinforcing Korea. And yet GDW has the division in Central Europe. A division trained for artic/mountain warfare in the Central German Plain? Ditto for the 10th Mountain Division. When this division was formed, its mission was to serve as the main reinforcement for Norway and yet it winds up on the Pacific Northwest... The 40th Mechanized Infantry Division is a CA-NG division with no NATO mission, in fact it was always considered to be a reinforcement for the Persian Gulf...And while the RDF of one airborne, one air assault, one motorized, one mechanized and two marine divisions, is a powerful force. It is sadly lacking in offensive punch, especially with the task of securing a major oil reserve. Its only NATO reinforcement is an ad-hoc British/Gurkha brigade that lacks most of the attachments that a brigade would bring with it. Considering that the Persian Gulf would provide a majority of the oil products used by NATO, one wonders if a larger commitment of troops to the gulf would be a more reasonable decision.
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis. 
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#2
02-28-2011, 12:59 PM
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Didn't the 6th LID go to Norway first, and then to Germany? I'm thinking that was after the Norwegian front was closed down by the US, and mountain/winter experienced troops could work in Austria.
__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
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#3
02-28-2011, 03:46 PM
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Oddly I can see one Brigade of the 6th Light being sent to Norway to bring the 10th Mountain to full strength. Then with the 1 combat brigade and rest of the divisional support it would stay in Alaska where it would go and form up it other two combat Brigades as troops became ready. Of course during the time they would get raided for troops for Korea.
The 10th after emergency in Norway was finish would either move Germany in place of the 6th Light, more likely sent to the Middle East. Yeah I know what the XVIII Airborne Corps needs another damn light unit. Yet, the 10th and 24th were odd divisions. In that they both had round out units, assigned to XVIII Airborne Corps which was basically the mains stay of the Army Central Command components. The 10th also had the mission for Norway while the 24th could of been shifted to Europe easy enough too. Yeah I alway thought the 40th Mechanized would of ended up in Korea or Middle East depending on when they shipped out. Then again there were plenty of Separate Brigade they could of pieced together a couple Heavy Divisions for the Middle East. Would there be another 23rd Infantry Division reformed again? Take 194th Armor Brigade, 197th Mechanized Brigade, remains of the Berlin Brigade, and the Airborne Task Force out Italy...anyone... Another problem I have is lack of the 29th Light Infantry and sending of the 26th Light Infantry to Korea. I think they would of both probably been sent to Europe via Norway. Would the 28th Infantry Division deploy as Medium Division or Heavy Division? Then here are several Division of National Guard units that one could play where is Waldo with. I mean would it be the 49th Armor Division or 36th Mechanized Division. 34th Infantry or 47th Infantry Division. Would it be the 50th Armor Division or 27th Infantry Division. Then several Brigades that are the remains of former National Guard Divisions. Speaking of the Separated Brigades and lack of Divisional HQs. Would the former Regimental Combat Teams be raised as new Brigade Combat Team that would be sent to various regions to reinforcement at Army and Corps level? Then throw in all the former Reserve units that would be reforming too. Next would the Round Out Brigades make it to the dance with their Division or would have the Pentagon came to it senses and rush to re-organize things? I mean in some cases there are some Division that had 10 Battalions of Armor, and various Infantry types. Would they be pared down to 9 Battalions with the other Battalions used to bring up other units that were short. Would the Army come up with Units of Action concept due to losses, instead of lack of wanting to increase the military force? Would they add 4th and 5th combat brigades to Divisions in some theaters and with others in certain area shrink them? There are so many what ifs and not enough time to truly explore them...lol
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#4
03-01-2011, 12:44 AM
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GDW screwed up on 6th ID and 10th Motown in various ways, though I think part of that was bad info (I assume that's why both division's round out components are elsewhere in the US OOB according to GDW, even though they mention both having roundout units).
Keep in mind that 6th ID in Alaska was replaced with 47th ID, putting both 6th and 10th in Norway at one point. This is probably realistic, since GDW's Soviet invasion of Alaska is just so much insanity and one division plus the AK ARNG at that time is probably as much force as you'd need. 10th Mountain being sent back to Alaska was a emergency/contingency operation after the .sovs rolled into AK, so while 6th ID might have been better, 10th was the guys who were available. That part is plausible -- sometimes you work with what you've got, not the 100% perfect solution (no matter how much it hurt people's feelings when Rumsfeld said something to that effect).
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#5
03-01-2011, 09:49 AM
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I always felt that the 6th LID would have either been kept in AK, especially with worsening US/Soviet relations. If it was deployed outside of AK, then it most likely would have deployed to Korea as part of 8th Army's reinforcements.
The 10th Mountain would have deployed to Norway, reinforced by Atlantic Fleet's MEB OR held stateside until its roundout brigade was ready and then be a later reinforcement to Iran and the only reason why I support another light division in the RDF is because of the Zargos Mountains... The 29th LID was slated for the Persian Gulf as well. In my RDF games, they have always been busy securing the Saudi Arabia base areas or reinforcing the Egyptians in the Suez Canal Zone. The 49th and 50th Armored are the NG's oddballs. The 49th AD has a NATO role, I've always sent it to Europe in place of the so-called 44th AD. The 50th AD gets sent in the southwest to oppose the Mexican invasion.
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.
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#6
03-05-2011, 12:10 AM
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I have been wondering. With the number of excess sailors and airmen in places like Korea, Europe, and Middle East. Would we find such Brigades as the Enhance Maneuver Brigades with an Provisional Infantry Battalion, Field Artillery Battalion, and Brigade Support Battalion. Then adding MP Battalions, Engineer Battalions and other units. These Brigades would be assigned to various Corps level and to various Divisions as replacement for combat units being rotated to reserve position or other forward Corps level positions. These units would have some type of Civil Affairs units assigned too.
I can see these Brigades being organized largely in Europe and Korea. Maybe a few in the Middle East and being assigned to some of the Division to help spread out the Combat units equally among the Divisions. I can also see by 2000 that the 82nd and 101st Division retaining operational control of one or two Brigades while the other Divisions with the Central Command detach a Brigade and to be attached to these two divisions and them receiving the Airborne/Air Assault Brigade to be used as active airmobile reserve for the Division.
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#7
03-05-2011, 12:53 AM
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That's probably what a lot of the National Guard Separate Infantry and Armor Brigades would have been really doing in the Twilight War, rather than being brigaded into various units like 44th Armored Division. Or at least serving as Corps or higher assets to be flexed to support any number of operations, be it plussing up a division in the defense or offense on a critical sector to relieving units in place so they could reconstitute.
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#8
03-05-2011, 01:08 AM
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Well here are some thoughts about Amor and Mechanized Battalions...
Armor Battalion HQ HCC 2 Armor Companies (Teams): HQ, 2 Armor Platoons, 1 Mechanized Platoon. 1 Mechanized Company (Team): HQ, 2 Mechanized Platoons, 1 Armor Platoon. 1 Anti-Tank Company (Team): HQ, 1 Anti-Armor Platoons, 1 Armor Platoon. 1 Support Company Mechanized Battalion HQ HCC 2 Mechanized Companies (Teams): HQ, 2 Mechanized Platoons, 1 Armor Platoon. 1 Armor Company (Team): HQ, 2 Armor Platoons, 1 Mechanized Platoon. 1 Anti-Tank Company (Team): HQ, 2 Anti-Armor Platoons, 1 Mechanized Platoon. 1 Support Company The HQ element would 1 M1, 1 M2, 2 M113 or LAV/Stryker vehicles (one used as company ambulance) along with other support vehicles. The Armor Platoon would have 4 M1s and couple support vehicles The Mechanized Platoon would 2 to 4 M113 or Stryker type vehicles and 2 M2 or LAV-25 to provide the heavier punch. This would give the dismount element ability to have at least 2 full squads in 2 vehicle and the rest in others, if 4 M113 or Stryker vehicle would be used the dismounted element would have a fully dismounted platoon on the ground. The M113 and Stryker could provide the MG firepower inplace of weapon squad and the M2 could provide the AT support. One of the things each Squad still would have access for one fire team to carry Machine gun and one AT weapon while dismounted. The Anti-Tank Platoon would have 4 M2 and 2 M3s. This was based off the idea that the old scout platoons were 6 M3, but lack the dismounted staff. With these platoons they could provide a small dismount to set up armor ambushes ahead of the line held by the M2 and M3. Then mount up and the M2 and M3 could continue the fight as they withdraw. In theory one of the Companies would be split up with it 3 Platoon disperse to the other three Companies with one platoon going to each Platoon. Just some thoughts...
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#9
03-05-2011, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
GDW has 47th ID taking over the Alaska garrison mission, so there's no real loss in effectiveness, and actually additional firepower. The problem with GDW's take on Alaska is that 6th ID + the AK ARNG (or 47th ID plus same) is an adequate garrison for the threat as it really existed -- the Soviets lacked the power projection to put anyone on the ground in serious numbers up here, so operations would probably have consisted of nuisance raiding and SOF missions on both sides of the border. I'm sure the Soviets would have made a stab at taking out the pipeline with SOF before they were just able to nuke it, but they just didn't have the means to put the troops shown in T2K on the ground. But, in an alternate universe where the Soviets had the means to put a couple combined arms armies across the Bering Strait, 6th ID + 47th ID + the two brigades of the GDW AK ARNG aren't an adequate garrison. I'd expect for the actual threat environment depicted, that at least another army division, or possibly one of the two MarDivs sent to Korea would have been parked in Alaska, probably with at least the Canadian brigade group that was supposed to head to Korea mentioned in some of the GDW stuff forward deployed into Alaska as well, or at least staged as a theater reserve in the Yukon at Whitehorse or maybe closer to the border. (And then there is the whole mess of how the invasion is described -- it sounds like the .sovs came across the Straits and just drove overland from somewhere around Nome on to Fairbanks. Then turned south to take Anchorage. And then somehow miracled themselves down into the panhandle to take Juneau and Haines -- if only to explain how Soviet troops make it to Whitehorse. No part of that makes any degree of sense. Just the Nome to Fairbanks part is 837 kilometers, straight line distance, across nothing. No infrastructure and no roads. Even with the sexy hover mobile brigades involved there's just no way to get an armored force across that distance in the summer, and trying to make that movement in the winter would make the worst days of the Eastern Front look like a slightly chilly spring afternoon. The rest of it is equally boggling -- a post-nuclear campaign waged across a maneuver area around the same size as the central European front from French-German border to the deepest penetrations of NATO forces into Soviet territory.) [/soap box mode]
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#10
03-05-2011, 07:58 AM
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LOL!
GDW's take on the AK invasion certainly didn't involve anybody taking the time to look at a terrain map of the area involved. The only Soviet options that ever made any sense was taking out either end of the pipeline, and the Soviet Pacific Fleet never had the power projection to actually try it. It would have been a Spetsnaz/Airborne show and would have been more of a raid than anything else, and it would have been more easily accompished by tossing a few dozen SSMs/ASMs into the area; or even just park a SSN or two with orders to sink tankers. From a story line, its intresting, but from a realistic approach, it would never have happened. With the job of securing the pipeline, hunting down the Soviet recon/raiding party...I think the 6th LID would have been kept in AK, at least until the 47th ID was up to speed and deployed. Even then I can see 6th LID moved up to the north and west coasts with the 47th securing the major cities in the south. Can't say that I would agree with deploying a Marine Division, the situation in Korea would have almost certainly required their deployment there. Most likely one of the NG Infantry Brigades could be moved into the state, if needed. Korea is the big question mark of the game...from the Vehicle Guides we know that the US units committed took brutal losses. But never so much of a hint of canon material to explain what happened. Someday, in my overflowing free time, have to sit down and start writing something.... 
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.
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#11
03-05-2011, 01:36 PM
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Yeah Korea has been a one of those things that make you go hmmm! We know that some units of the 8th U. S. Army made contact with the units of the Chinese Army before they totally collapse, and then they had to fall back into Korea.
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#12
03-05-2011, 05:57 PM
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I suspect attrition in Korea is more due to being on the receiving end of the Soviet "China pattern" nuclear attack, rather than it being a meat grinder.
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#13
03-05-2011, 08:19 PM
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Quite possibly right there. North Korea could have attacked southward when the world's attention was focused on China and Europe. There's the rumour of NK nukes, if they were a reality they'd give the south a real pasting without the need for the Soviets to throw a few of their own.
The NK military could then go in and give the few southern units (Korean, US, etc) a real bloody nose. Units from the few countries not entangled elsewhere would be rushed in and the north pushed back at great cost (worse than in the 50's - at least there wasn't a world wide war going on at the time, soaking up the bulk of military strength). Eventually things settle down in Korea to the point where the Soviets feel it's stable enough to use the area as a resting point for some of their more battered units (this could explain the poor state of Soviet units in the area). Haven't checked the sources in writing this so probably doesn't fit too well with the books, but as a first draft....
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#14
03-05-2011, 11:00 PM
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Re-read the US Vehicle guide for the units of the 8th U.S. Army Divisions and the 163rd ACR. It one of the reason why the 5th and 6th Marine Division were hurriedly trained and sent to help the 4th Marine Expeditionary Force later to become the II Marine Amphibious Corps. Also part of the reason why the 26th Light Infantry from MA finds it's way to Korea instead of elsewhere.
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#15
03-06-2011, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
The retreat back to Hong Kong doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense to me - that's a distance of thousands of miles. If the 6th Division was in contact with US forces wouldn't it make more sense for it to fall back into Korea with the Americans rather than strike out to Hong Kong on its own?
__________________
Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom
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#16
03-06-2011, 04:28 PM
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Contact could mean simply throwing a note tied to a rock over the heads of interposed enemy soldiers. It doesn't have to mean there's a clear corridor they can drive their entire unit through.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#17
03-06-2011, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
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#18
03-06-2011, 06:49 PM
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Back in the early 80's when the game was written, they didn't have access to the internet and accurate books. Even so, they did a damn fine job with what was available to great a fictional world in which we get to play a game.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem Last edited by Legbreaker; 03-06-2011 at 07:12 PM.
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#19
03-06-2011, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
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#20
03-06-2011, 07:11 PM
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Time may have been in a bit short supply too. I believe they were publishing about one item every three days?
Not a bad effort since they were working out of what was basically little more the spare room of a house from my understanding. I can't see anyone here managing to maintain such a good quality of work under the pressure they must have felt to meet publishing deadlines.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#21
03-07-2011, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
By the time they produced Twilight 2000, GDW had already had large Traveller backing and were far from the days working where ever they could find space. One problem I do see is that the old paper research that these places had to do, where stuff got misplaced. Even in this computer age, it is easy for stuff to get misplaced on the old hard drive if one isn't careful. Even the big company such as the company that use to make Dungeon and Dragons showed what happens when you get too big.
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#22
03-07-2011, 11:57 AM
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Was reading "Shattered Sword" which is an indepth review of the Battle of Midway from the Japanese prespective...great read! But the authors had a discussion of the Japanese seizure of Attu and Kiska Islands...
"As it developed, Attu and Kiska were to be trifling consolation prizes for the failure of Operation MI. Thier loss meant almost nothing to the Americans. Indeed, when he was informed of Attu's fall after the Battle of Midway had already transpired, U.S. Navy Secretary W. Fran Knox offered a pithy indictment of Yamamoto's plan by remarking that "Japan was either unable to understand modern war or not qualified to take part in it.""
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.
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#23
03-07-2011, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
I think this is where the Alaska and Northwest Pacific Invasion angle comes in, even as bone headed as particular.
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#24
03-07-2011, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.
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#25
03-07-2011, 06:20 PM
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Well yeah, considering that both Hawaii and Alaska were years from statehood to. Yeah and considering all the island that the Japanese had taken that they bypassed during the war. I am sure a few islands with little more than few thousand Japanese soldier on them was more of thorn in one side than any tactical importance....
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#26
03-07-2011, 08:44 PM
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In the Twilight War, I would think that a Soviet seizure of Alaskan territory would have propaganda implications that would inflate the importance of the fight beyond what might be reasonable (contesting control of the pipeline is important, contesting control of Nome or Bethel, Alaska, or any of the Aleutians . . . not so much).
In WW2, I don't know if this would have been the case. I haven't read the media coverage from back then, but get the sense that obscure Alaskan islands probably meant less to the public mindset than the Philipines back then. I'm not sure there was a burning need to reclaim American territory, as embodied by the islands out there in the middle of nowhere, but may be wrong.
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#27
03-11-2011, 09:52 AM
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The thing is there is reason why the Russian were so willing to sell Alaska in the first place. If they had some limited objectives, they could of used a force that was more tailored for those objectives instead of invading the Pacific Northwest with what amounted to a Front that found itself cut off.
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#28
03-12-2011, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
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#29
03-12-2011, 03:00 AM
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CENTCOM in T2K manages to hold onto Saudi Arabia with no serious drama, so NATO's oil situation is okay. Contesting Iran is important but kind of just the bonus round -- and an economy of force mission when the European theater is full tilt boogie. If they can hold without augmentation, especially not another heavy division, that's likely to be all they'll get.
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#30
03-12-2011, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
__________________
The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.
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