US 8th ID (M) Aviation Assets

[schnickelfritz]

Please forgive if this has been discussed before, but...

AM I the only one perplexed by the aviation assets listed in the Eastern European Sourcebook for the 8th ID (M)?

Any thoughts as to how you might get the helos given as belonging to the unit overland? My thought is that you would knock them down as you would to get any of them into a C-130/C-141 and load them onto a large flatbed semitrailer or into a shipping container (on a semitrailer).

Any thoughts as to how they got helicopters and no one else seems to, other than it is not specifically listed that some Divisions here and there do? I can imagine that there are some Corps/Army level aviation assets in Western Europe, but in a division?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Dave

[Fusilier]

Craig Sheeley was without a doubt the worst writer who ever published anything for Tw2000. I'd say if you don't like the helos being in the 8th ID, then there is your source of your problem.

Among other things in the E.Europe sourcebook, he also outfitted the Turks and Greeks armies with predominantly Soviet MBTs.

Sheeley also wrote City of Angels, which is probably the worst Tw2000 book out there. I think he was an outsourced author.

[schnickelfritz]

I'm not saying I don't want them there, I'm just looking for a reason, other than creative license, why they would be. I'm not a Craig Sheely fan, but I'd imagine the powers that be would have bought off on his work before publication. After all, that would only make sense, right?

I believe all of the major US medium, light, and attack helos can be knocked down to fit in a C-130, if even only 1 at a time. To me, that means they can be transported on a semitrailer or some even in a 40' shipping container.

I was just wondering if anyone had pondered how the 8th's Helos were transported cross country and why they had them.

-Dave

[HorseSoldier]

After all, that would only make sense, right?

There doesn't appear to have been much quality control to speak of after GDW rolled out the 2nd edition rules. Not sure if energies were focused elsewhere (Dark Conspiracy, Traveler upgrade, Trav2300/2300AD, etc) or if QC went downhill as the financial situation worsened for the company.

[Legbreaker]

Carried by truck. It's mentioned in there somewhere.
Note that the 8th is about the only Division that's been detailed to any significant degree. It's therefore quite possible that most other Divisions also have air assets to some extent, however aren't specifically mentioned as they're effectively dead weight without fuel and ammo. It is specifically stated the AH-64 with the 8th was an older model so ammo commonality with the Bradleys allowed it to still be of some minimal use.

As I proposed in an earlier thread on why the 8th were in the region in the first place (to capture oil shale reserves), the air assets may have been stripped from other units under the assumption that once fuel was available, they would give added effectiveness to the 8th in resisting Pact attempts to retake the resource. (A stab in the dark on my part, but hey, if the shoe fits...)

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Carried by truck. It's mentioned in there somewhere.
Note that the 8th is about the only Division that's been detailed to any significant degree. It's therefore quite possible that most other Divisions also have air assets to some extent, however aren't specifically mentioned as they're effectively dead weight without fuel and ammo. It is specifically stated the AH-64 with the 8th was an older model so ammo commonality with the Bradleys allowed it to still be of some minimal use.

As I proposed in an earlier thread on why the 8th were in the region in the first place (to capture oil shale reserves), the air assets may have been stripped from other units under the assumption that once fuel was available, they would give added effectiveness to the 8th in resisting Pact attempts to retake the resource. (A stab in the dark on my part, but hey, if the shoe fits...)

You know, that makes the most sense out of all the reasons I have heard for them having those air assets. And for them being in the area in the first place. Even with a basic refining capacity, and I wouldn't be shocked there if there was a small one or two for small scale production, being able to throw air into the mix in 2000 would be like showing up at the battle of the bulge with a M1A2 company.

I think thats the reason I'll give when asked.

[LAW0306]

If they were moving them over long distance a 40 ft lowboy is the trick. one bird one truck.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

I'm not saying I don't want them there, I'm just looking for a reason, other than creative license, why they would be. I'm not a Craig Sheely fan, but I'd imagine the powers that be would have bought off on his work before publication. After all, that would only make sense, right?

Ahh I get'ya.

I don't have anything against aircraft either, I use em in my game afterall. I was just complaining about Sheely in general.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

There's air assets aplenty in the ME; heck there's a working USN aircraft carrier and support ships! But then even after the nukes they're sitting in the most active oil production area in the world - stuff's bound to keep flying (until the spare parts and so forth finally runs out).

I myself have an eye towards some aircraft still being in Europe on both NATO and the Warsaw Pact's side after the failed 2000 offensive. However, given how enmeshed the two sides are, neither side can be sure of what to bomb, nor where to bomb, and "calling in air support" is completely out of the question: assuming someone could get on a FAC channel to air assets, the base has no idea if the GCI is trying to lead the (rare and irreplaceable) aircraft into a flak ambush or genuinely needs air support.

Likewise, considering that there are thousands of primed and ready SA-7 and SA-14s and Stingers and Redeyes still out there, not to mention dedicated AA tracks being used as ground support neither side was willing to put aircraft over the battle until supremacy was assured. Using a pair of Su-25s to finish off stragglers in a clear route is one matter, but sending them into a total fog of war with the possibility (probability) of them never coming back was out of the question. Likewise AH64s and A10s.

A few utility helos still exist but are so deep behind their own lines that the average grunt will never hear the whup-whup of rotors; those are reserved for moving command personnel in the event of an emergency, or "critical" cargo (nuclear weapons).

I'm wandering further astray but for my T2k Europe I envision a "wing" of perhaps 3 A10s, a few (5-6) German F4s, maybe an F15 or two, a couple of C130s and 4 or 5 OV-10 Broncos. If any sort of "air support" missions are ever again tasked it'll be the Broncos that do the mission.

[Panther Al]

Sorta OT, kinda on:

One of the things I have heard here and at other places is what about ammo? Will there still be some laying about, after all, in the case of the A10, not much call for it to be used for other things that might encourage large production runs. But, I stumbled across an interesting didbit:

Seems that in the A10's case so many spares, and even more so ammo, was made for the eventuality of WW3, that the Air Force is only now, after shutting off the flow of parts (mostly) and ammo (in toto) with then end of the cold war, finally running low on the stuff, particularly Ammo. Evidently they have so much of it still laying about that its almost too old to use, and in addition to buying a scad of new stuff, is sending out even more old stuff to be reworked.

So: If you are looking for a reason to still have a few A10's tucked away here and there for those high level Oh Shit moments, don't let the lack of parts and ammo deter you: Evidently they had *plenty* laying around.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Sorta OT, kinda on:

One of the things I have heard here and at other places is what about ammo? Will there still be some laying about, after all, in the case of the A10, not much call for it to be used for other things that might encourage large production runs. But, I stumbled across an interesting didbit:

Seems that in the A10's case so many spares, and even more so ammo, was made for the eventuality of WW3, that the Air Force is only now, after shutting off the flow of parts (mostly) and ammo (in toto) with then end of the cold war, finally running low on the stuff, particularly Ammo. Evidently they have so much of it still laying about that its almost too old to use, and in addition to buying a scad of new stuff, is sending out even more old stuff to be reworked.

So: If you are looking for a reason to still have a few A10's tucked away here and there for those high level Oh Shit moments, don't let the lack of parts and ammo deter you: Evidently they had *plenty* laying around.

There was a show on the History Channel about dangerous places to fly, and they were covering Alaska and Canada....several of the airlines in that part of the world are still using the old DC-3/C-47 as both a general transport and as an airliner. What caught my eye was a section concerning spare parts, it would appear that so many spare parts were made during WWII, that the C-47s are still getting brand new, straight from the factory (okay 65 year old straight from the factory) parts. There would appear to be enough parts for another thirty years of operations........

Your tax dollars at work!

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Carried by truck. It's mentioned in there somewhere.
Note that the 8th is about the only Division that's been detailed to any significant degree. It's therefore quite possible that most other Divisions also have air assets to some extent, however aren't specifically mentioned as they're effectively dead weight without fuel and ammo. It is specifically stated the AH-64 with the 8th was an older model so ammo commonality with the Bradleys allowed it to still be of some minimal use.

As I proposed in an earlier thread on why the 8th were in the region in the first place (to capture oil shale reserves), the air assets may have been stripped from other units under the assumption that once fuel was available, they would give added effectiveness to the 8th in resisting Pact attempts to retake the resource. (A stab in the dark on my part, but hey, if the shoe fits...)

Also, if a small NATO naval battle group based around the Tarawa was on the Baltic (in support of 2nd MarDiv), the 8th's helo's would have a place to refuel, rearm, etc. It's a stretch for 2000, but a posibility.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Also, if a small NATO naval battle group based around the Tarawa was on the Baltic (in support of 2nd MarDiv), the 8th's helo's would have a place to refuel, rearm, etc. It's a stretch for 2000, but a posibility.

Yet another reason to send the Tarawa to the bottom in my opinion. It's existance anywhere near anywhere useful would be hugely unbalancing to the T2K scenario as written.

Regarding the masses of ammo and parts produced for various systems, what about nukes? Those depots holding all that ammo and parts would HAVE to be prime targets in my mind. Chances are that they were taken out early on (unlike IRL). And remember, a nuke is an area effect weapon - near enough is usually good enough.

[schnickelfritz]

I just can't buy sending Tarawa to the bottom...I tend to lean toward the victim being a ro/ro or somesuch, even a USN LSD or LPD.

I devote 80% of my T2K time to adventures, research, and narrative on Poland campaigns. If I find something that imbalances the narrative or is contradictory, I just hit the old "IGNORE" button, simple as that.

The beauty of this all is that it is YOUR game....to run as you see fit.

-Dave

[HorseSoldier]

I don't think anything on the capability level of the Tarawa is still operational in the Baltic for the reasons already mentioned -- its absence in Going Home and its major shift in the balance of power in the region.

(Plus the aviation sourcebook previously mentioned was ver 2.0 stuff, so I have a pretty easy time buying the 2000 date referenced to either being typo or poorly researched/thought out by the author in reference to the actual game setting.)

[Targan]

I didn't have the Tarawa being seaworthy in my campaign. Maybe not sunk but anchored or docked somewhere perhaps. As said above, if the Tarawa was fully operational it would be mentioned in Going Home or in another module.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I don't think anything on the capability level of the Tarawa is still operational in the Baltic for the reasons already mentioned -- its absence in Going Home and its major shift in the balance of power in the region.

(Plus the aviation sourcebook previously mentioned was ver 2.0 stuff, so I have a pretty easy time buying the 2000 date referenced to either being typo or poorly researched/thought out by the author in reference to the actual game setting.)

Trying to:

(a) keep to canon no matter how contradictory
(b) keep within the bounds of reason

Here goes:

In May 2000 the Tarawa slipped its base in Iceland for its final voyage, moving to Kiel it embarked elements of the 2nd Marine Division ready for what would prove to be the final NATO offensive of the war. Moving into the Baltic the Tarawa acted as the small flotila's flagship. Initial landing operations were completed successfully and the Tarawa moved into it's main role as a logistic and command vessel. Unfortunately at this point things started to go wrong, possibly the last Polish warship the Osa II class, the ORP Oksywie fired two P20M Improved Styx missiles. The first was destroyed by the Tarawa's CIWS but the second hit the Tarawa as it was in the process of transferring ammunition and the resulting explosion and fire threatened to destroy the ship. Using the last Osprey and the three intact Chinooks the order was given to abandon ship, the aircraft made repeated runs to the beach ferrying survivors ashore before an explosion finally sank the Tarawa (taking the Osprey with it). The Tarawa took 432 naval personnel and 586 marines with her (mainly logistics and command staff).

The net result of this was an initial delay to the coastal offensive due to command and control breakdown followed by a much bigger delay as the logistics losses crippled larger scale operations. Smaller scale attacks using AAVPT7s were still launched and the operations across the Vistula (using land based logistics) proceeded as planned.

The three Chinooks were initially used for logistic movements but as the offensive dried up were kept in reserve for emergencies. When Operation Omega was announced, one of the three was cannibalized for spares and the other two were flown to Bremehaven where they were used to evacuate the final perimeter guards (the first landing on a specially converted cargo ship before being unceremoniously pushed overboard to make room for the second).

[Raellus]

I like having the Tarawa involved in the Summer 2000 offensive in N. Poland. I also like having it sunk. That reconciles both canonical sources (the one stating that it's still afloat in 2000 and the fact that it is not mentioned at all in Going Home). The Tarawa's unexpected loss goes some way in explaining the failure of the Baltic thrust and the eventual collapse of the entire offensive.

IMHO, one Silkworm is unlikely to sink a Tarawa. I favor a combined arms approach. A couple of Pact torpedo/missile boats and a diesel sub working in concert, hitting her with at least one SSM and one torp.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I like having the Tarawa involved in the Summer 2000 offensive in N. Poland. I also like having it sunk. That reconciles both canonical sources (the one stating that it's still afloat in 2000 and the fact that it is not mentioned at all in Going Home). The Tarawa's unexpected loss goes some way in explaining the failure of the Baltic thrust and the eventual collapse of the entire offensive.

IMHO, one Silkworm is unlikely to sink a Tarawa. I favor a combined arms approach. A couple of Pact torpedo/missile boats and a diesel sub working in concert, hitting her with at least one SSM and one torp.

Losing the Tarawa gives the failure of the 2nd Marines to exploit weak opposition a rationale that fits.

I agree a Styx isn't the most likely thing to sink the Tarawa, I did consider using a mine but I wanted the OSA as a link into something I have planned for my campaign. Extra missiles would be unlikely and I didn't want to add (another) submarine to the background. Hence the hit in the logistic supplies causing the fire (which explodes the ammo). I plan to write up the 2nd Marines in a lot of detail and will be researching the death of the Tarawa a bit more for this.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

It's entirely workable to have the Tarawa at the center of a PacRim "Operation Omega" - getting troops and dependents out of Japan and Korea and other places west.

Tarawa still afloat + Not tipping the balance in Europe.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

It's entirely workable to have the Tarawa at the center of a PacRim "Operation Omega" - getting troops and dependents out of Japan and Korea and other places west.

Tarawa still afloat + Not tipping the balance in Europe.

If you want it afloat the logical place is with CENTCOM. Depending on your plans for Korea it could easily be used there. Alternatively for an unusual option have it answer to CIVGOV and be off Yugoslavia.

[HorseSoldier]

Using the last Osprey and the three intact Chinooks the order was given to abandon ship, the aircraft made repeated runs to the beach ferrying survivors ashore before an explosion finally sank the Tarawa (taking the Osprey with it). The Tarawa took 432 naval personnel and 586 marines with her (mainly logistics and command staff).

Chinooks weren't in the USN/USMC inventory. They've got the rather less impressive/successful/capable CH-46s and the more directly comparable H-53s.

I suppose the Tarawa might have gone into the Baltic with an attached Army Assault Support Helicopter Company embarked, flying surviving CH-47s, if the Tarawa had for some reasons survived but its entire air component was lost or grounded due to maintenance attrition.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

There was a show on the History Channel about dangerous places to fly, and they were covering Alaska and Canada....several of the airlines in that part of the world are still using the old DC-3/C-47 as both a general transport and as an airliner. What caught my eye was a section concerning spare parts, it would appear that so many spare parts were made during WWII, that the C-47s are still getting brand new, straight from the factory (okay 65 year old straight from the factory) parts. There would appear to be enough parts for another thirty years of operations........

Your tax dollars at work!

Yeah, well the Auto Industry had spares parts packed in warehouse for vehicles they were no longer producing or if they were they had change so much many of the parts produced in the 70s were no longer used on the line.

It one of those things with lot of thing that was produced in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, ind into 1970s where spare parts were made in large quantities. Now a days with most factories using the just in time model for their parts, many spare parts dry up a few years after they stop being used in the factory and adding to cost to get new parts. Which since the 1980 have cause auto salvage yards to have booming business...

[Legbreaker]

The Tarawa isn't in the middle east. We know this from the RDF Sourcebook.
The Tarawa is unlikely to be in the Pacific. We know this because there just isn't time for it to move from Europe where it's desperately needed, and if it was to wait until the 2000 offensive came apart, it would a) be used to evacuate the 8th ID and/or 2nd MARDIV, and b) surely have been held back for Omega.
Therefore, by a process of logical elimination, it's got to be on the bottom and most likely on the bottom of the Baltic.

If it had survived to take part in Omega, then surely it could then have been sent to Korea via South America with an arrival in around February 2001. Very unlikely though because it's designed as a command and control centre, unlike the smaller USS John Hancock which as we know from Going Home, was the flagship. With the extremely complicated task of shifting roughly 50,000 troops and personal equipment, the Tarawa is the ship of choice out of the two.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

If it had survived to take part in Omega, then surely it could then have been sent to Korea via South America with an arrival in around February 2001. Very unlikely though because it's designed as a command and control centre, unlike the smaller USS John Hancock which as we know from Going Home, was the flagship. With the extremely complicated task of shifting roughly 50,000 troops and personal equipment, the Tarawa is the ship of choice out of the two.

I drew the same conclusion - if the Tarawa was part of Task Force 34 it would certainly have been the flagship ahead of the John Hancock.

[Abbott Shaull]

So the question is did the German 3rd Army, III German Corps, and XI US Corps get limited 'Air' Support or not? Going by the material in the original manual seems to let on believe that there wasn't any. While the Free City Krakow did show there are limited air assets, and going home reinforce that many of their mission were far from the trace...

[Legbreaker]

Yes, and no.
Yes there's the probability some aircraft were available on a limited basis with each and every flight having to be okayed by at least the Divisional commander.
No because fuel was EXTREMELY limited. Those missions which where authorised would be few and very far between and involve issues vital to the success of the Corps, even Army's objectives. There would be no casevac, no airborne assaults, no parachute drops of supplies for almost everyone. And you could forget about trying to call in an airstrike.
Every last drop of fuel and round of ammunition would have to be accounted for, with missions planned to the second days, even weeks in advance to squeeze every last possible benefit out of every last second of airtime.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Losing the Tarawa gives the failure of the 2nd Marines to exploit weak opposition a rationale that fits.

I agree a Styx isn't the most likely thing to sink the Tarawa, I did consider using a mine but I wanted the OSA as a link into something I have planned for my campaign. Extra missiles would be unlikely and I didn't want to add (another) submarine to the background. Hence the hit in the logistic supplies causing the fire (which explodes the ammo). I plan to write up the 2nd Marines in a lot of detail and will be researching the death of the Tarawa a bit more for this.

Challenge #25 has reference to a Polish Navy Whisky Class submarine being based in Gydnia; that might be an option should you want to include a submarine in the story?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

So the question is did the German 3rd Army, III German Corps, and XI US Corps get limited 'Air' Support or not? Going by the material in the original manual seems to let on believe that there wasn't any. While the Free City Krakow did show there are limited air assets, and going home reinforce that many of their mission were far from the trace...

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Yes, and no.
Yes there's the probability some aircraft were available on a limited basis with each and every flight having to be okayed by at least the Divisional commander.
No because fuel was EXTREMELY limited. Those missions which where authorised would be few and very far between and involve issues vital to the success of the Corps, even Army's objectives. There would be no casevac, no airborne assaults, no parachute drops of supplies for almost everyone. And you could forget about trying to call in an airstrike.
Every last drop of fuel and round of ammunition would have to be accounted for, with missions planned to the second days, even weeks in advance to squeeze every last possible benefit out of every last second of airtime.

I'm fairly sure that one of the mini adventures in the Twilight Encounters boxed set involved the recovery of a capsule of film that had been shot by a Soviet recon aircraft, so I'd have to agree that whilst they may be extremely rare, both sides still had the capability to carry out air operations even in 2000.

An idea that was floated in one forum or another a long time ago was for the ref to describe contrails in the sky as a sort of "special" encounter so the players could know that aircraft were still flying (and also wonder who was operating the aircraft, what it was doing, etc).