Children during T2k...

[natehale1971]

How many people use kids as NPCs during their campaigns?

One of the campaigns that we did, one of our guides when we got to the Free City of Krakow was a 16 year old Polish girl who's dad had been a professor at one of the unversities who fell out of favor with the Soviets (he had actually said that the Poles should have done the same thing the East Germans were doing and kick the Soviets out so that Poland could handle their own internal affairs and not send troops to fight an imperialistic war against China). The GM based her off one of the girls from Red Dawn, and she was always giving little gifts to one of the PCs she had a 'chrush' on... In fact she was the one who provided our group at that time with the "Going Home" message. Poor girl was in tears and didn't want to tell us what it was, when she finally told us... we promised to take us back with us as a dependent.

[95th Rifleman]

I like to create moral and ethical conflict by using child soldiers. How will the PC's react when the enemy are 14 to 18 year old kids consripted from the villages and towns?

They make interesting marauders aswell. The PC's find out that those "bandits" who have been raiding the supply lines are just hungry kids, admittedly hungry kids with automatic weapons.

[Tombot]

I used a 14 year old girl in krakow as the leader of a band of kids, which carved out a living outside of the citywalls as thiefs. They sometimes worked for the DIA-Boss and (after trying to steal some stuff of the PC´s) as guides for the search of the hideout of Warsawskie-Marauders.

And about children-soldiers... that is a hard one, but that kind of soldier would surely turn up in T2k-times. I did not use them yet, but thought about doing it in the future in the desperate vincinity of the "Zone Morte", where life is even cheaper than elsewhere...
VERY mean topic, surely a brutal twist for the players. Every good man, who stops shooting back for a second ("These are KIDS!"), could bite the dust very fast. Or earn some mental problems, after "overcoming" these attackers... (especially the soldiers which already had children themselves).

And i recently had a group of a dozen children following a fanatical catholic priest, which the players encountered on their way to bremerhaven.
The priest called his group "flaggellants" and they prayed and whipped themselves "for the sins of the past", begging for food, on their way.
(Off course he used ´em as thiefs, and there were hints about sexual abuse, too).
The T2k-world is harsh place, and kid-soldiers are another (real evil) facette of just that.

Addition: Ah - almost forgot! The Warsawskie-Marauders within the citylimits had kid-soldiers! They armed a gang of tough street-urchins to watch the main-entrance of the abandoned trainstation above their HQ! They gave them some weapons and spread the word among the homeless/refugees living in the ruins there, "to shut up or die" about the place and its residents. The kids acted as forward observers, and had the mission to scare away the civilians.
Above that "Adam Zmiski" (one of the marauders) recruited them sometimes as spys for ORMO-activity.
My players managed to rush the kid-soldiers and take them alive, before they surprised the russian deserters in their hide-out.

[natehale1971]

The Role-playing game "Year of the Zombie" had feral children as an encounter group...

[Raellus]

In my PotV PbP, part of the group on a salvage mission to Nowy Huta (an industrial suburb of Krakow) was attacked by a band of kids living among the ruins. They called themselves the "Kings of Nowy Huta" and their motto was "f*** America, f*** the Soviet Union, f*** Germany- long live the Kings!" It was all very post-apocalyptical Lord of the Flies. They were armed with slings, slingshots, and crude clubs, spears, and bladed weapons. The players were able to fend them off without killing any of them (one of the older kids got his knee destroyed by Snakeye's South African mercenary PC, though).

The kids were originally from a couple of towns further east. A few months before my players met them, were sent to Krakow by their desperate parents but their bus was stopped and ransacked by marauders so they walked to Nowy Huta where they established themselves, subsisting mostly on scrounged canned goods and small game. By the time the PCs met them, a few were already suffering from accute radiation poisoning.

[Legbreaker]

Most memorable child NPC encounter I ran was when the PCs holed up in a townhouse for the night. Around midnight a serious thunderstorm struck and the lightning flashes illuminated a figure crawling across a wire from the neighbouring building to the roof of theirs.
The PCs had set up an RPK observation post in the attic with a view out a hole in the roof. The PC on guard (female) opened up with a burst at the relatively short range (maybe a dozen metres) and scored a hit. The body fell several stories and landed with a splat.
Meanwhile the two PCs outside guarding the vehicles (a BRDM and BTR) fended off what can best be described as a probe by poorly armed bandits (crossbows, spears, etc) with one being saved from almost certain death from a bolt by his body armour.
Wisely, the PCs battened down and waited until dawn.
The body that fell from the wire turned out to be a girl of about 13 - about 3-4 months pregnant. The firing PC was rather screwed up by that for quite a while.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

One thing we in the Western World (particularly the English speaking Western World) almost always fail to recognize is that we allow our offspring to have an extended childhood. In many parts of the world, a boy of 14-16 years is considered old enough to be working and helping to support his younger siblings or even taking over from his father if the father is less capable.
In those same countries, a girl of 15-17 years is often thought of as old enough for marriage or work.

Even in some Western nations up to the 1990s it was not unusual for a similar attitude to hold sway, countries like Italy, Greece, Spain you could still find boys of 14 leaving school to learn their father's trade.
I'm making a very broad and generalized statement I know but in some parts of Europe, what we would consider as a boy of 15 would be viewed as a young man of 15. We would see him as a child were they would see him as eligible to hold down a job and support his family.

It would not be too much of difference to them have him join the military (voluntary or otherwise) in such circumstances - it wasn't that many years ago when a "boy" of 15 could legally (as long as he had his parent's consent) join the Australian navy as a 'junior recruit' and "boys" of 16 could join the Australian army as trades apprentices.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

One thing we in the Western World (particularly the English speaking Western World) almost always fail to recognize is that we allow our offspring to have an extended childhood. In many parts of the world, a boy of 14-16 years is considered old enough to be working and helping to support his younger siblings or even taking over from his father if the father is less capable.
In those same countries, a girl of 15-17 years is often thought of as old enough for marriage or work.

Even in some Western nations up to the 1990s it was not unusual for a similar attitude to hold sway, countries like Italy, Greece, Spain you could still find boys of 14 leaving school to learn their father's trade.
I'm making a very broad and generalized statement I know but in some parts of Europe, what we would consider as a boy of 15 would be viewed as a young man of 15. We would see him as a child were they would see him as eligible to hold down a job and support his family.

It would not be too much of difference to them have him join the military (voluntary or otherwise) in such circumstances - it wasn't that many years ago when a "boy" of 15 could legally (as long as he had his parent's consent) join the Australian navy as a 'junior recruit' and "boys" of 16 could join the Australian army as trades apprentices.

This is a really good point. By 2000 (T2K), it wouldn't be uncommon to find boys as young as 14 in 15 in some European armies (or at least militia units)- especially the Polish and Soviet armies, I am sure.

Most other kids in war zones would be forced to help their families survive by doing some kind of work.

[95th Rifleman]

The British and American attitude is interesting, especialy in regards to children and the ages they are considered such. We have some of the highest ages of consent and legal ages for alcohol.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

The British and American attitude is interesting, especialy in regards to children and the ages they are considered such. We have some of the highest ages of consent and legal ages for alcohol.

I've always thought it was an interesting bit of hypocrisy that we will allow our kids to go to war and possibly die before we'll allow them to buy a beer.

[Legbreaker]

In WWI and II boys as young as 15 were being routinely passed by recruitment selections for training and subsequent deployment to the front. Officially every last one was over the minimum age, but many, many blind eyes were turned when evidence of youth was available.

It's unlikely to occur in today's world though with the masses of identification methods available to establish a person's true age. In T2K, once the nukes fall though, I'm fairly sure we'd see a large increase in youth recruitment as identification such as drivers liciences, birth certificates, etc became lost, or stolen for the ability to enlist and get a "free" meal ticket.

My guess is that once 1998 comes to a close, and transport to Europe is slowed to nearly the point of complete stop, the risk of being sent to combat would radically diminish in the eyes of somebody far from Alaska or Texas. could well be a surge in volunteers at this time.

Could also be a reason why CivGov were able to cobble together units to send to Yugoslavia. Half may well be conscripts, but a sizable chunk might be volunteers eager to keep food in their bellies and give a littel payback to those they perceive nuked their homes and families.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I've always thought it was an interesting bit of hypocrisy that we will allow our kids to go to war and possibly die before we'll allow them to buy a beer.

And we'd prefer that these boys die virgins, if we can have it. Can you imagine the domestic backlash if the command in a given theater set up licensed brothels that could be managed by proper medical and security authorities? The seamy underside of war among American soldiers is that sex, which we'd prefer to pretend doesn't happen, is a massive black market which, like all black markets, breeds the worst kinds of behaviors and generally breaks down the fighting capacity of the force.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Webstral

And we'd prefer that these boys die virgins, if we can have it. Can you imagine the domestic backlash if the command in a given theater set up licensed brothels that could be managed by proper medical and security authorities? The seamy underside of war among American soldiers is that sex, which we'd prefer to pretend doesn't happen, is a massive black market which, like all black markets, breeds the worst kinds of behaviors and generally breaks down the fighting capacity of the force.

We laugh at the old French and Italian army brothels, but I reckon they where smarter than people realise.

[atiff]

Originally Posted by Raellus

This is a really good point. By 2000 (T2K), it wouldn't be uncommon to find boys as young as 14 in 15 in some European armies (or at least militia units)- especially the Polish and Soviet armies, I am sure.

Most other kids in war zones would be forced to help their families survive by doing some kind of work.

A few working assumptions I used in my own campaign are:
- children as young as 8 play at least a partial role in the economy (simple jobs, fetching, runners, feeding livestock, etc., on a daily basis)
- from 15 years old, they are playing a 'full' role in the economy, and that may include fighting (and 'underage' is definitely possible too)

Another note, though, is that I inserted a trough in the population demographics for 2-12 year-olds. The reasoning is essentially that while it is possible for a parent to survive the death of a child, the reverse is not always true.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by atiff

A few working assumptions I used in my own campaign are:
- children as young as 8 play at least a partial role in the economy (simple jobs, fetching, runners, feeding livestock, etc., on a daily basis)
- from 15 years old, they are playing a 'full' role in the economy, and that may include fighting (and 'underage' is definitely possible too)

I'd suggest that these ages are actually a little old based on what actually happened during the industrial revolution. Kids as young as five might well be doing simple jobs and by about 12 I would imagine that kids are working as a full adult. For example a 12 year old girl will probably be nearly as productive at sewing as an adult woman.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Mahatatain

I'd suggest that these ages are actually a little old based on what actually happened during the industrial revolution. Kids as young as five might well be doing simple jobs and by about 12 I would imagine that kids are working as a full adult. For example a 12 year old girl will probably be nearly as productive at sewing as an adult woman.

Probably also worth factoring in to this that there are some jobs children would be more suited to than adults, purely because of their smaller size...(they may be able to go places adults can't)

[Tombot]

Yeah, like in coal-mines...

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Probably also worth factoring in to this that there are some jobs children would be more suited to than adults, purely because of their smaller size...(they may be able to go places adults can't)

Your post reminded me of an appropriate quote from the film version of Schindler's List when he's trying to retrieve the young girls from Auschwitz:

Oscar Schindler at Auschwitz: "What are you doing? These are mine. These are my workers. They should be on my train. They're skilled munitions workers. They're essential. Essential girls. Their fingers polish the insides of shell metal casings. How else am I to polish the inside of a 45 millimeter shell casing? You tell me. You tell me!"

[ArmySGT.]

Outside our cute little boundaries where supermarkets have food in them, banks are open year to year, and your own Government isn't trying to kill you.

Things are different.

[TrailerParkJawa]

The only game I ever ran was Free City of Krakow. I had a group of young teens take one of the players 9mm Beretta from his holster and run off with it. It led to a chase thru the city streets but I don't remember the outcome.

Now, the funny thing is I was a teen when this happened. I was probably 13 at the time (1985).

[pmulcahy11b]

This thread makes me think of a couple of lines from a Pat Benetar song:

Hell is for children
'Cause their little lives can turn out to be such a mess

[Webstral]

Honestly, I avoid the subject as much as possible. The fate of children under 10 in Twilight: 2000 is too awful for me to contemplate. I think of the things that could and would happen to my little guy in the event of a nuclear exchange, and I lose my power of speech. I don't like to think about who I would become if I survived the deaths of my children. So I avoid the subject entirely.

Thomason thinks about it, though. Metro Phoenix has hundreds of thousands of children in 1997. By early 2001, a few thousand are left. Though I haven't finalized the details yet, I'm strongly considering having the Joint Chiefs make the trial of Thomason by court martial be the condition for bringing Fort Huachuca back into the fold. Thomason agrees over the objections of all of his people. He pleads guilty and tells the court in Colorado Springs that they must execute him and execute him promptly for his crimes against the United States and humanity. Of course, sanity prevails in Colorado Springs when they realize that executing Thomason will only delay the process of reunification; he is pardoned in light of the extenuating circumstances--his contributions in the Second Mexican-American War.

[natehale1971]

In one of the campaigns, my character ended up saving the life of a baby (not yet walking, but could crawl like noboy's business)... he loved that little boy. He cared for it, and had taken a East German helmet and an armored vest that he had paid the Combat Engineer in the group to turn into an armored baby carrier that everyone called "Turtle's shell" and the little guy's nickname was Turtle.. namely because he had a long little neck that he'd be peering out and watching everything during times it was quiet. But the moment he sensed bad things, he dispeared into his shell... He had a better danger sense than 90% of the PC & NPC travelling party.

My character adored that little guy and wanted to adopt him and take him back to the States. But that was not ment to be... the Polish Officer who was his father was able to track the group down and get his son back. It was very tearful seperation. i dont think there was a dry eye at the gaming table, or on the field.

Nate almost ate his gun after 'little nate' went home with his father, the women in his life slapped the shit out of him and stated that "Don't be an idoit, you're going to be a father one day. and little nate showed that to all of us, just how good of one you'll make. now get up... and let's get started on making that future."

And by the time they had reached Bremerhaven they learned that chlidren were on the way... and that even though he was missing 'Little Nate' (as were everyone else... and everyone broke into tears when they were giving their things to the Quartermaster and they came across "Turtle's Shell", both at IRL and IC).

It's one of the reasons I asked about this.

If anyone else had something like this happen in your games.

[95th Rifleman]

We had an NPC whore in our group who got pregant, half the players where potential fathers so when the lass was born, little Lenka, everybody kinda chipped in with raising her. That's the closest we got to someting like that.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

The British and American attitude is interesting, especialy in regards to children and the ages they are considered such. We have some of the highest ages of consent and legal ages for alcohol.

Youngest allied casualty in Gulf 1 was a 17 year old Brit.

[headquarters]

I guess I dont have to tell anyone here the meaning of the word infantry - as I understand its to do with the squires of the horsemen - usually kids, sons maybe or at least the sons of a tennant.

As things get grim in T2k settings I think you will find kids doing all sorts in groups of fighters/ units.
Scouting,foraging,fighting , hauling loads as porters. AT least they have through history and still do in 3 world conflicts.

I have tried to introduce kids at some points in my campaign - but I tend to shy away - can get a little to realistic I guess - but sometimes it works well.

Most memorable kid - the character of General Pains son - Zorg Georg Michale Pain ( both ma and da had their say in the naming), to Alotta Pain who died mysteriously before the General remarried. he had some issues with daddy to say the least and dad did put out a hit on him to be fair. But cvil war is such an ugly word for a family quarrel. Good fun to play though - the young usurper being a precocious mirror of his old tyrant father. ( in game folks- we had some laughs about GPs family situation)

[James Langham]

I do use kids, often to create moral dilemmas. One of the bits of background text in my history gives a good idea of this:

"We were dug in when all of a sudden I got a call from the sentry position. There were these Polish kids in a mish-mash of uniforms cycling towards us. I saw mixed military bits that were too large, a postman's uniform and even a boy scout outfit. These kids looked about 13-14. My guys who weren't much older themselves started laughing. The laughing stopped when they saw us, dismounted and actually started shooting with the oddments they had. My guys were stunned, NCOs were having to go round kicking guys, making them fire. Lots of them were firing crying as they did. One of my guys broke down there and then and three more were evacuated as psychiatric cases after. The last casualty of that firefight died here in the States when he shot himself leaving a note that it was the only way to stop seeing their faces and torn bodies."
Sgt John Warner
1st Armoured Division

Inspired by a scene in Team Yankee when they come under fire from a teenager.

[Brother in Arms]

To me If they are carrying a weapon they are a target regardless of age.

Because I know how much of a threat I could have been at age 13 in a guerilla a conflict. I new all the best hiding spots in my neighborhood. I had been skulking around since I was 5 playing manhunt with my freinds. I had tons of camouflage, so I wouldn't be seen and I already had my very own chinese SKS rifle and a couple hundred rounds on hand in stripper clips.
There were also plenty of wooded areas to fire from or retreat too.

So I see children a potentialy dangerous combatants, nothing to get especially emotional about a human being is a human being regarless of age.

[atiff]

And in addition to that, children don't have the same moral compass or mental processes / understandings that adults have. This can potentially make them more dangerous...

Let's just leave that one there, eh? A bit too scary...

[95th Rifleman]

The picture of the kid with the FAL is starting to freak me out.

When I was a kid, my dad made me an SLR out of wood and odds/ends in the shed. I loved that toy. The thought that people the same age are using the real thing is disturbing.