RDF French Navy?

[Olefin]

In the RDF there is this one line about the French naval part of the FAR

"The naval component is built
around the Guided Missile Cruiser Jean Bart, and her escorts."

but no details are offered in the module when French forces are detailed

ok - so what would be the escorts for the Jean Bart?

[Rainbow Six]

Interesting...a quick glance at wikipedia shows that the Jean Bart (D615) is an anti air frigate / destroyer (the French Navy doesn't use the term destroyer so it's difficult to say for sure which she is) and wasn't commissioned until 1991 (which I think was after the module was published?) so it would appear that GDW were speculating when referring to the Guided Missile Cruiser Jean Bart.

Perhaps the French had plans for such a class of ship in the 80's but shelved them at the end of the Cold War. The only contemporary cruiser type ship listed for the French navy is the helicopter carrier Jeanne d'Arc (R97) which was decommissioned in 2010.

[Olefin]

I think that may be what they were talking about - i.e. the helicopter carrier Jeanne d'Arc as you just said.

Whats interesting is that they went to the trouble to say there was a French task group in the area and then didnt detail it - and then didnt even get the right ship as the command ship.

[Rainbow Six]

Based on a quick skim through wiki, either the Foudre (L9011) or Siroco (L9012) might also be good candidates to be in the French fleet (and possibly be the command ship).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foudre_..._platform_dock

[simonmark6]

The RDF sourcebook was written in 1986 and the Jean Bart was laid down in 1988 so it's possible that they might have known of the ship. The last Jean Bart was a 50K ton battleship so they might have posited that the next ship to bare the name would be larger than a 4.5K ton frigate.

The Jean D'Arc was in existence when the book was written so they might not have meant that. However, if my research is correct, the Jean D'Arc could only hold 5-8 helicopters at best and would have had a serious job trying to keep those going given space and weight concerns so replacing one with the other wouldn't be too unbalancing in my opinion.

If the Jean D'Arc was the centre of the task force I'd suggest the Jean Bart as close in support with maybe a couple of destroyers as a reaction force. If there were any French Landing ships left I'd suggest this would be the place for it as getting troops on the ground amphibiously would be more useful here than in some other theatres.

[Fusilier]

I'm guessing whatever French warships are in the area, probably equals or exceeds the listed US naval presence.

US influence in the middle east is waning while the French are expanding their dominance in the region.

For example, the governments of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait both gave permission for the French to occupy their territory - regardless of what the Americans felt about the matter. They've also managed to safely deploy very strong military forces in the area and unlike the US navy, are not only able to continually maintain the the FAR, but they are also able to supply local nations too.

This suggests to me that they have strong naval assets in the middle east and possibly in Djibouti and other places between the Gulf and France.

[Olefin]

I disagree Fusilier - the French have a much smaller navy than the US and its not like they have no other obligations

And the US has an active small carrier in the region

The RDF didnt mention Foch or Clemenceau being there and that is what it would take to be bigger than the US

Most likely we are looking at four to five ships at most, maybe as few as three plus various support ships

Plus the US fleet in the RDF isnt fully described - the small patrol ships that are mentioned in the module arent defined and there has to be some larger support ships for that task force - at the least an oiler and some kind of support vessel

However long term the RDF forces would be going home - and then the French definitely would be the dominant naval force in the region, especially with most likely the Indian and Paki fleets being gone

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I disagree Fusilier - the French have a much smaller navy than the US and its not like they have no other obligations

Was. You don't know if it is smaller anymore. The French were not mentioned as being involved in naval actions during the war. It is speculation as to how many French warships, besides the Frigate Balny, were lost. Going by French Naval assets on hand during that time, they very well could outnumber the listed US ships mentioned as being still seaworthy.

An estimate to what the French might have had at the start of the Tw2000 war could be...

2 Aircraft carriers
1 Helicopter cruiser
1 Missile cruiser
20+ Frigates/Destroyers
Over a dozen corvettes (small frigates)
About a dozen submarines
Some armed amphibious ships
Any museum/reserve ships that they put back in service like the US navy did

Originally Posted by Olefin

And the US has an active small carrier in the region. The RDF didnt mention Foch or Clemenceau being there and that is what it would take to be bigger than the US.

Perhaps the French have either the Foch or Clemenceau in Djibouti. Kept back far enough from the threat of Soviet aviation, but still in the region.

I don't really know what you mean by the French needing a carrier in the area to be bigger than the US presence. While a LHA is a valuable asset for amphibious operations, I don't see it as something that is going to affect naval dominance. How many operational Harriers, do you imagine it to be still carrying after participating in combat against the Soviets in Iran?

Originally Posted by Olefin

Most likely we are looking at four to five ships at most, maybe as few as three plus various support ships.

"Most likely" perhaps to you, but I disagree. I don't believe the French are going to put their largest overseas force in a volatile theater, which sits atop massive oil reserves, and not keep a sizable navy nearby. They've already demonstrated that they could safely deploy divisions and expeditionary forces around the world, far from France, after the nuclear exchange.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Plus the US fleet in the RDF isnt fully described - the small patrol ships that are mentioned in the module arent defined and there has to be some larger support ships for that task force - at the least an oiler and some kind of support vessel

Small patrol ships is a moot point to me. If France is going to be taking on Kuwaiti, Saudi and Iraqi oil, they'd probably put some mine hunters and patrol boats in the area too.

"Has to be" doesn't exist in Twilight 2000 to me. Military forces work with what is left over, not with what they are used to having. There very well may not be any support ships still afloat. I also don't see how this changes things. The French had support ships too and have an active supply route back to France... so personally, I think they'd be the ones you could be more certain to have support vessels.

[Medic]

I'm not an expert on naval matters, U.S. or French, but the thing with any fleet in the Persian Gulf is that it is within striking distance of Iran. And if the U.S. fleet is built around an LHA and a couple of ships, the fleet will be in trouble if there's any aircraft capable of carrying anti-ship weapons on the other side. Yes, the LHA boast the Phalanx-system and any carrier-style vessel is most probably going to be protected by heavy anti-air capability, but LHA lacks the intercept capability vital for surviving in a hostile naval environment with enemy aerial assets. A couple of Harriers will not do much, since they are not designed to fight air-to-air as much as they are meant for attack and CAS missions. Also, ammunition supply for anything else than guns would probably be depleted pretty quickly, especially in an aircraft-rich neighbourhood and that would have most probably been well before they got to the Gulf in the first place...

[Olefin]

Medic

iran is on our side in twilight 2000 in the persian gulf

fusilier

Current US fleet strength in Dec 2000 by canon (and that includes Frank Frey's ships he had assigned for his Kenya module which he didnt release but which he did give us his notes for)

US - John Hancock, 3 older DD's, at least one WHEC (equivalent of a frigate)one SSN

Persian Gulf - one gun cruiser, one LHA with air group, one guided missile cruiser, three FFG, one LPD

Kenya - one guided missile cruiser, two DDG, one frigate, one WHEC, one destroyer

and thats without any info on Korea at all or damaged ships that might be repairable or what ships escorted the 6000 men to the RDF in Dec of 2000

so except for carriers and subs its about the same size fleet as the French who are covering the Med, the English Channel and Senegal as well

not a big point either way - but clearly the RDF module isnt talking about a carrier because there are no carrier planes mentioned either - i.e. either Rafale or Crusaders

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Olefin

not a big point either way

Agreed on that, since like I mentioned, I don't think it matters whether an aircraft carrier is currently deployed with the French squadron or not.

[Olefin]

I agree with you there - the French already have superior air power deployed there - those squadrons they sent there basically are bigger than either of what the US or the Russians have deployed especailly since most likely they have their full weapons loadout

Whats interesting is that the French in the RDF area are basically part of the US effort - i.e. they arent directly fighting the Soviets but their backing of Iraqi rebels and going into Kuwait really threw a monkey wrench into the Soviet plans - i.e. they cant attack thru Iraq and Kuwait unless they want to go war with France

and if there is one thing that would win the war for NATO for sure it would be the Belgian and French armies joining NATO the war on the Russians