City of Angels Rewrite?

[Olefin]

A question to the board - has anyone ever attempted to rewrite City of Angels to correct some of the bigger issues with it (like the Mexican Army not matching canon as to its equipment and its units)?

From what I understand its officially considered non-canon by the people who currently own the Twilight 2000 game. (Saw it referred to as Apocrypha if I remember correctly)

Just wondering as it seems a great project for the board or some of the board members to do. And while it might be a big project it would be nice to have a "new" module to play.

[James Langham]

I don't have time for a full rewrite but if enough are interested I am willing to help (bearing in mind I'm not a US specialist).

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

A question to the board - has anyone ever attempted to rewrite City of Angels to correct some of the bigger issues with it (like the Mexican Army not matching canon as to its equipment and its units)?

From what I understand its officially considered non-canon by the people who currently own the Twilight 2000 game. (Saw it referred to as Apocrypha if I remember correctly)

Just wondering as it seems a great project for the board or some of the board members to do. And while it might be a big project it would be nice to have a "new" module to play.

Yes, well not necessarily re-writing it but a more accurate portrayal of Los Angeles to be exact.

City of Angels is not one of my favorites. I thought it was very comic bookish in general. I lived in Los Angeles for 10 years, as did Jess (whom hasn't posted here in awhile)

Yes it would be a big project.

BTW the author of City of Angels also wrote the Eastern Europe Sourcebook which probably explains why the Greek and Turk armies are equipped with Soviet tanks.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by James Langham

I don't have time for a full rewrite but if enough are interested I am willing to help (bearing in mind I'm not a US specialist).

If there's interest I'd also be willing to help out, but with the same caveat as James, i.e that the US is not my area of expertise.

[Olefin]

It does seem there is interest then.

So a question then - besides the obvious problem with the Mexican units lets throw around some other ideas on what is wrong with the module - and I do agree on it being very comic book like in how it was written.

Do we need a sub-forum to do this or could we do the rewrite for those interested within this current forum?

As the material I think is still copyrighted it would be of course a fan canon rewrite.

A question - has anyone ever approached the company that still owns the Twilight 2000 material to see if they would be interested in new material written by fans or rewritten to make it canon in this case?

[James Langham]

I actually wrote to Far Futures regarding the possibility of writing extra source books but got no reply. :-(

Originally Posted by Olefin

It does seem there is interest then.

So a question then - besides the obvious problem with the Mexican units lets throw around some other ideas on what is wrong with the module - and I do agree on it being very comic book like in how it was written.

Do we need a sub-forum to do this or could we do the rewrite for those interested within this current forum?

As the material I think is still copyrighted it would be of course a fan canon rewrite.

A question - has anyone ever approached the company that still owns the Twilight 2000 material to see if they would be interested in new material written by fans or rewritten to make it canon in this case?

[Rainbow Six]

Just a thought...

Rather than rewriting something that already exists (and potentially getting involved in copyright and other issues) what about creating our own module from scratch? Freely available in the public domain after completed. That way we're not stepping on the original writer's toes so to speak...

Just a thought...

[Legbreaker]

Works for me. There's plenty of proof readers, fact checkers and editors floating about here willing to help out.

[Olefin]

So Leg and Rainbow you are of the opinion it would be better to write a City of Angels rewrite but as a fan canon public access (possibly call it City of the Angels to avoid confusion or possible legal issues)?

I think it would be great to see something like that come out of this forum - especially as the current module is seen even by the people who own the game copyright as not being canon - thus it would create a brand new module - we could even use some of the backstory and story elements but in a different form.

[Rainbow Six]

Olefin, what I'm suggesting is that rather than rework City of Angels (which I've never actually read btw!) it might be a better idea if those that are interested focused their efforts on producing a new module of completely original material.

In other words, take a new idea, a location not extensively covered in any of the published modules - it wouldn't even need to be US based (Korea maybe?) - and create our own adventure module. Then offer it up for free to the Worldwide T2K community, either via this forum or other options (for some time I've been pondering setting up a website to host my UK material - that will almost certainly happen at some point this year, at which point I'd be happy to host said module).

I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what legal issues may or may not exist in rewriting the original module - it may well depend on how much is changed...but if we went for something completely original that should hopefully avoid any potential legal issues. It's possibly an ambitious project but ultimately we'd be contributing something totally new to the global T2K community.

[Olefin]

Well I may also do City of Angels but this time do it as canon but with some other tweaks as well (i.e. use the right order of battle and equipment for the Mexicans)

And so you know I am in the process of a module for Kenya based on the offical canon notes that Frank Frey posted about the module that was never released for that area - thus it will be canon as to US forces and the general set up but then go on from there with my own touches

That way we do get one last "official" module per se (at least as to the forces and set up of who is there)

And you are right by the way about a lot of areas never covered - I can think of a dozen places for modules that etiher were glossed over or never mentioned besides timeline mentions or US army or Soviet army guide mentions

places like South Africa, Australia, Korea, Alaska, Western Canada, most of the Pacific, the IO, Turkey, and for that matter Yugoslavia

and in the US places like Western NY (lots of water there and Howling Wildnerness never mentioned it) where the Finger Lakes and the Great Lakes make it a very good place to grow crops

[Webstral]

Certainly, lots of places were given short shrift by Howling Wilderness. I'm not complaining, as I understand completely that time is the most expensive resource in these ventures. Nonetheless, Howling Wilderness suggests some hooks and leaves the field wide open for others.

[Olefin]

take it from me - Western NY would have water no matter what - between the Great Lakes, the Finger Lakes, the very good water table there already and the host of smaller lakes and swamps it wouldnt go dry

and there are a lot of veterans there - always been a lot of people who served - so it would be very well defended - plus a lot of tons have very easy ways to generate electricity between the rivers and creeks there - my own home town had a back up generator that could generate power from the very fast moving creek that run thru it that they put in place after the blizzard of 77 knocked out our power - lots of other towns did the same.

and the NYS Thruway in my area was an emergency landing area for the USAF as well - so you could see a section of of it now being a new airbase after other bases got knocked out

by the way I used to live in LA - and for people who lived there City of Angels definitely makes no sense at all. For one LA is so big that the nuke attack that takes the city out isnt big enough - even with all the hits against oil facilities there is a lot of the city that would be untouched with the nuke strike pattern from Howling Wildnerness

and no nuke on Palmdale where they had SR-71's based and the Lockheed works there?

Oh and I have seen what gun stores are like in LA - if even one out of fifty civilians went guerrilla against the Mexicans they wouldnt stand a chance - in that time frame you could still walk into a gun store in LA and get a Chinese knockoff of the AK-47 that took all of five minutes to convert to full auto let alone enough ammo to equip a battalion

its one reason the LA riots were so bad - the Marines were told that they might be facing gangs armed with light anti-tank rockets and Rockeye missiles that were known to be in the hands of some of the bigger LA gangs

[Targan]

Note to self: I really, really need to avoid the rougher parts of LA.

[Olefin]

it wasnt fun - I was there for the riots and the Marines went in loaded for bear - heck they stopped flights going into LAX because they were worried someone was going to shoot one down

[Silent Six]

Many years ago, I seem to recall that some of us thought about doing a re-write or new material, even. I can pitch in to some extent, even help set up a writing list. I'm better at editing and proofreading than coming up with a lot of creative work out of thin air, though.

With regard to the LA riots twenty years ago, I know there was a lot of concern for the Marines and the Guard going in to restore order. The last thing they wanted was to have to face off against rioters with heavy weapons. Particularly some of the National Guardsman who, I think it was revealed later, were only issued one bullet each to get them deployed sooner (I don't have a citation for this, so I can't confirm).

Doing some quick web searching...those riots were twenty years ago on 4/29. Time flies.

[rcaf_777]

I currently working some Adoc units made of former state guard and national guard troops

Los Angles Rangers - based in LA County

Los Angles City Guards - A unit formed to protect the city like the ORMO

[SongofWar]

Let me know if you guys need a hand. I always thought that area of the country had a lot more game potential than was realized in the City of Angels module.

[TrailerParkJawa]

As a Californian I'm always interested in any T2K works on my state. I didnt personally care for City of Angels too much. As mentioned already it felt sorta comic bookish.

Personally, I would rather see new material developed from scratch than a rewrite. LA is huge, even with the nukes there should be lots of salvage potential in the Southland.

One thing to keep in mind though is water. Without power the water distribution network in California comes to an end. No pumping of water over the Grapevine, or from other sources like Colorado river.

So LA is now essentially a very dry place as are many parts of California. And since there are surviving forces up near Sacramento or Stockton any water works there would be used locally.

Sorry for the musing, but I certainly would lend any ideas or proof reading to a California project.

[Olefin]

Thats a very valid point. LA, before the extensive water works were created, was a much smaller city that could only support a fraction of the population that was there in 1997.

Without that water many areas in LA, even if they were still habitable, would be a very hard place to live in. Much of it would rapidly revert to the semi-desert conditions that existed there prior.

[Matt Wiser]

I'll echo TPJ's sentiments: I'm also a Californian, and would like to have seen more material about the Golden State.

[Olefin]

Love to see you write some things Matt about CA. I lived there for eight years and loved my time there.

[kalos72]

Thing about any information about CA that got me was...the conflicting data about San Diego.

How did they leave it standing but they took out Charleston?

[RN7]

City of Angels is one of the weakest T2K books. There is way too little information on Los Angeles and southern California, and information relating to the Mexican Army and the gangs of LA is just unbelievable.

For example the Mexican Army occupying Los Angeles is divided into four task forces: Green, Red, Orange and Yellow who are all equipped with Russian tanks, armour and light vehicles. What unit of the Mexican Army do they come from and why do they have no Mexican Army equipment?

The gangs of LA are a just unbelievable.

Brighton River Reavers (They like motorboats)
Resida Banditos (There from Resida)
Seal Beach Girls (There suspicous of men)
Sunset Beach Boys (They like getting sun tans and surfing)
The Flying Circus (They screach in a secret language; a falsetto London Cockney accent)
The Hollywooders (They do everything with style)
The L.A. Raiders
The Masked Riders (They wear masks and are mysterious)
The Rad Rats (Their scavengers)

All were missing is a gang from Beverly Hills made up of actors, rich kids and plastic surgeons. Where are all the ethnic gangs?

Does City of Angels need a rewrite? Hell yeah!

[Silent Six]

If one were going for a real Mad Max vibe, the Car Wars West Coast supplement would have been more helpful, it's over the top enough so that the gangs in City of Angels would fit in.

However, since this is Twilight 2000, it needs fewer easy caricatures, and more details. I felt that even for railstop kind of adventure, there wasn't enough depth. The reason that I like the modules isn't because they are a rails type of game, but because they are truly a sourcebook. Due to the location, there could be a lot more detail, but since the guiding thrust is resolution of the main plot point, there are a lot of cast in stone encounters.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Silent Six

I felt that even for railstop kind of adventure, there wasn't enough depth. The reason that I like the modules isn't because they are a rails type of game, but because they are truly a sourcebook. Due to the location, there could be a lot more detail, but since the guiding thrust is resolution of the main plot point, there are a lot of cast in stone encounters.

I agree. Perhaps the completely different format and content of City of Angels is due mainly to it not being a GDW product, but simply authorised by them? The general ideas are ok, but like you I feel there's no usable depth.
However, given the apparent lack of useful resources in the area (such as water), I'm happy to simply ignore it and focus on other regions with more roleplaying potential. If I really need some info then I'll probably refer to the book for a little cosmetic detail and work out the foundations later if necessary.

[Webstral]

I won't speak to City of Angels, since I know less about L.A. than many here. Being a Bay Area type now, I'm much more interested in what is happening here in 2000. I just don't know how much adventuring potential there is. The Oakland-Sacramento axis seems as firmly in the grip of Milgov as anyplace in the country is. The region possesses as much of what is required to survive and rebuild as anyplace in the US if one goes a bit further afield to include minerals from the Sierra Nevada and petroleum from Bakersfield and the Central Valley under Milgov control.

Offhand, the best adventure ideas I can come up with are the location of materials to support reconstruction. For instance, the hydroelectric plants along the rim of the Sierra Nevada would change the water situation and the power situation completely. Equipment and expertise would be worth their weight in something even more valuable than gold. I suppose strategic minerals for things like machine tools also would be extremely valuable. There would be marauders to be tracked down and local warlords to be overcome, but these things are not especially inspiring.

I suppose one could go a very different route than normal. Inside the Sixth US Army AO would be a number of players jockeying for control of what would be a local superpower once the recovery got underway. PCs might find themselves called upon to take sides or perform special missions. I'll have to think on this.

[Olefin]

"The gangs of LA are a just unbelievable.

Brighton River Reavers (They like motorboats)
Resida Banditos (There from Resida)
Seal Beach Girls (There suspicous of men)
Sunset Beach Boys (They like getting sun tans and surfing)
The Flying Circus (They screach in a secret language; a falsetto London Cockney accent)
The Hollywooders (They do everything with style)
The L.A. Raiders
The Masked Riders (They wear masks and are mysterious)
The Rad Rats (Their scavengers)"

I know - where are the obvious gangs - i.e. the Cripps and the Bloods, both of whom were very much in existence when the module was written? I do like the LA Raiders - if they are a gang of devoted LA Raiders fans especially - having been to their games and been in the stands they were already basically a marauder group (with apologies to any actual Raiders fans on the board)

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Olefin

"The gangs of LA are a just unbelievable.

Brighton River Reavers (They like motorboats)
Resida Banditos (There from Resida)
Seal Beach Girls (There suspicous of men)
Sunset Beach Boys (They like getting sun tans and surfing)
The Flying Circus (They screach in a secret language; a falsetto London Cockney accent)
The Hollywooders (They do everything with style)
The L.A. Raiders
The Masked Riders (They wear masks and are mysterious)
The Rad Rats (Their scavengers)"

I know - where are the obvious gangs - i.e. the Cripps and the Bloods, both of whom were very much in existence when the module was written? I do like the LA Raiders - if they are a gang of devoted LA Raiders fans especially - having been to their games and been in the stands they were already basically a marauder group (with apologies to any actual Raiders fans on the board)

It is possible that there was an attempt to avoid real gangs for the same reason that real people were avoided.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by James Langham

It is possible that there was an attempt to avoid real gangs for the same reason that real people were avoided.

I'm in the final stages of completing the marauder section of my Alternative SGUK and oddly enough have just changed the name of a group of football thugs from their real name to a fictional alternative as the more I thought about it the more it seemed like a better idea not to use the real name for several reasons (I must admit that one such reason was that I was concerned that using the real name might lead to people doing a google search for that name finding their way here, and they may not be the sort of people that we would want to attract).

So yeah, whilst I have been guilty of using real names myself, I think I can understand why it's not such a good idea.