French unit sizes as an indication of casualites they have taken in the war

[Olefin]

Posting this here (just put it up in the RDF canon omissions thread as well but thought it merited its own thread) to start a discussion on an area that hasnt really been touched too much by the canon - which is how badly have the French been hit by the war in terms of casualties. The RDF is one of the few places where we have canon numbers that can give us a real indication.

repost from RDF Omissions Module

Leg, I got my data from the French Defense Dept site - which is in French by the way and you need to google translate it - the English version of the site has no info on it that is useable.


Here for instance is the address for the 6th Light Armored Brigade

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/pre...legere-blindee

To be clear Leg and James - what is on that site is the actual serving manpower and equipment, not a TOE or projected strength, but the actual number of men and women who are physically part of those units, including where they have been posted in the past.

The site is very specific about how many men and in most cases tanks or armored fighting vehicles are physically in reality in the units themselves (i.e. living breathing servicemen and women, not what could be there but what is there), not a projection or TOE statement that is not the real strength.

If you look at the information it clearly is a trend - I looked at several different formations and you can clearly see a trend that shows the French have taken a lot of losses

To summarize so far

1st Foreign Legion Cavalry Regiment in reality is 930 men and 48 AMX-10 RC, in the game its 600 men and 24 AFV's. (which would be the AMX-10 RC vehicles)

13th Foreign Legion Demi-brigade (posted in Djibouti since 1962) in reality is 800 men, in the game its 500 men and they would only have been in that country - they havent been posted anywhere else to take casualties

2nd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - in reality its at 1230 men organized into ten companies, making it the largest regiment in the French Army (that is a direct quote from the site referenced above). In the game it has 600 men. That is over 50 percent casualty rate!

2nd Foreign Legion Parachute Regiment- which has seen no fighting since it arrived in the Middle East - in reality it has 1140 men organized into 9 compainies, in the game it has 600 men. Again almost a 50% casualty rate.

3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - in reality it has 675 men organized into 5 companies, in the game it doesnt appear but its very obvious that it should be the deployed unit and not the 1st Regiment for reasons I state below

1st Marine Regiment - 933 men and 18 AMX 10 RC in reality - in the game they have 500 men and no vehicles, meaning they have lost all their armor and almost half their men.

2nd Marine Regiment - 933 men (broken down as 58 officers, 269 NCO, 606 other ranks) in reality, in the game they are at 500 men - again a huge loss rate

3rd Marine Parachute Regiment - in reality 1120 men in 8 companies, in the game they are down to 750 men

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/pre...erie-de-marine

1st Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - this formation is an administrative regiment that is completley administrative and is not a field formation and hasnt been for decades - they are not deployable. If it was ever sent it would never have gone into the field but be an HQ unit only.


This is a clear pattern of the French taking a lot of casualties with some units being reduced by 50 percent or more, in several cases units that would only have been in Africa.

Thus the French, in many ways, have taken almost as bad a beating as the Americans have in the RDF in fighting the Somalis, Ethiopians, Eritreans, etc.. at Djibouti. These arent fresh units showing up - these are units that have seen a heck of a lot of combat, with deep holes in their TOE's and a lot of equipment and vehicles gone.

They havent taken those casualties in the Middle East itself - the canon is very clear that they are not doing any fighting there.

I am continuing to do research but so far the trend is definitely a large reduction in manpower and vehicles for every unit I have seen so far in the French FAR, including among units that have done nothing but be garrison troops since they showed up.

There is fighting mentioned in Senegal and Mauritania against pro-Soviet guerrillas in the bio of the French commander of the FAR - but that wouldnt explain the losses in the units that were in Djibouti the whole time.

I will look at other modules but information on the French tends to be pretty spotty. For instance a bunch of units are mentioned in Going Home - but no idea of how many men they have at all.

[James Langham]

Great research, really interesting read. Looks like we may need to all consider the canon position on this.

[RN7]

It is possible that GDW made some errors in manpower figures when listing the French orbat in RDF.

From RDF:

The French Force Actione Rapide (FAR or Rapid Action Force) is the visible symbol of French military and diplomatic presence in the Persian Gulf region. The FAR was created in the 1980's to provide France with power projection capabilities similar to those of CENTCOM. Like CENTCOM, it is a unified command.

The first major deployment of the FAR came in the fall of 1995. The Foreign Legion Operational Group was activated and sent to Djibouti to assist in internal security duties. A task force of French Marine Infantry was stationed at Dakar at the request of the Senegalese government. In 1998, when the Franco-Belgian Union was formed, Senegal and Djibouti became member nations. The biggest break came when the governments of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia gave permission for France to station troops in their countries (to the chagrin of some Americans in the region). The Paris government responded quickly and by fall of 1998, the 9th Marine Infantry Division and the 2nd Brigade of the 11th Airborne Division were in the region along with supporting elements. There they have remained, providing a visible symbol of France's commitment to the stability of the region (and to assure that France gets its share when the Americans leave).

Structure: The FAR, like CENTCOM, is composed of forces from all the military services of the nation. The ground force component consists of the 9th Marine Infantry Division, the 11th Airborne Division, the 1st Light Armored Division, and the Foreign Legion Operational Group. The naval component is built around the Guided Missile Cruiser Jean Bart, and her escorts. Special operations are handled through the Unconventional Warfare Operations Group, which controls the Marine Commando Group (naval commandos) and the 1st Marine Parachute Regiment.

Not all of these units are fully deployed in the Persian Gulf


RDF French Order of Battle

Rapid Action Force (FAR) HQ: Djibouti, Djibouti
Foreign Legion Operational Group (GOLE) HQ: Djibouti
13th Foreign Legion Demi-brigade (500 men) Djibouti
1st Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Basra, Iraq
2nd Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Djibouti
1st Foreign Legion Cavalry Rgt (600 men, 24 AFVs): Djibouti
2nd Foreign Legion Parachute Rgt (600 men) Al Kuwayt,Kuwayt

11th Airborne Division HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
2nd Brigade HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
425 Airborne Support Command (300 men): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
1st Senegalese Parachute Rgt (600 men): Al Qatif, SA
6th Marine Parachute Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA
3rd Marine Parachute Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA
1st Airborne Chasseur Rgt (750 men): Al Qatif, SA
1st Marine Parachute Rgt (700 men): Basra, Iraq
1st/35th Abn Arty Rgt (200 men): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
3rd Troop, 1 st Airborne Hussar Rgt (120 men, 24 AFVs): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia
2nd Company, 17th Airborne Engineer Rgt
2nd Company, 5th Combat Helicopter Rgt (12 Dauphin, 4 Ecureils, 4 Super Pumas)

9th Marine Division HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
Marine Group HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
1st Marine Infantry Rgt (500 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
2nd Marine Infantry Rgt (500 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
1st/11th Marine Arty Rgt (180 men): Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
1st Company, 1st Marine Tank Rgt (120 men, 13 AFVs):
Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt

Middle East Aviation Group HQ: Al Kuwayt, Kuwayt
15th Ftr Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 2000s)
25th Ftr Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 2000s)
292nd Attack Squadron (200 men, 16 Mirage 4000s)
161st Transport Squadron (300 men, 8 Transall C-160)
193rd Air Refuelling Squadron (300 men, 4 KC-110s)


The real life FAR was composed of the following units.

4th Division Aeromobile: Nancy
6th Division Legere Blindee: Nimes
9th Division Marine: Nantes
11th Division Parachutiste: Toulouse
27th Division Alpine: Grenoble
Brigade logistique de la FAR: Maisons Lafittes
19th Brigade d’artillerie: Maisons Lafittes


4th Division Aeromobile - Nancy, France: 5100 personnel
1st Regiment d'Infanterie (RI): 64 Milan, 8 81mm mortars, 12 120mm mortars
1st Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Alouette III, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma
3rd Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Alouette III, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma
5th Regt d'Helicopteres de Combat (RHC): 8 Alouette III, 24 Gazelle/HOT, 8 Gazelle/20mm, 24 Super Puma
4th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Manoeuvre (RCS) – Nancy: 8 Alouette III, 8 Super Puma
9th Regiment de Soutien Aéromobile – Phalsbourg:

6th Division Legere Blindee (DLB) - Nimes, France: 7400 personnel - Light Armoured Division
1st Regiment de Spahis (RS) – Valence: 36 AMX10RC, 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
1st Regiment Etrangere de Cavalerie (REC) – Orange: 36 AMX10RC, 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
2nd Regt Etrangere d'Infanterie (REI) – Nimes: VAB Regiment
21st Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Fréjus: VAB Regiment
68th Regiment d'Artillerie (RA) – La Valbonee: 24 BF50 155mm towed
43rd Regiment d’Artillerie de Marine – La Valbonne: Moblization only
6th Regiment Etrangere du Genie (REG)(Foreign Legion Combat Engineers):
6th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) – Nimes:

9th Division Marine - St Malo, France: 8000 personnel
Regiment d'Infanterie-Chars de Marine (RICM) – Vannes: 36 ERC-90S (to AMX-10RC, 1990), 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
1st Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Angoulême: 36 ERC-90S (to AMX-10RC, 1990), 3 VAB, 12 VAB/HOT
2nd Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Le Mans: Marine Infantry Regiment
3rd Regt d'Infanterie de Marine (RIMa) – Vannes: Marine Infantry Regiment
11th Regiment d'Artillerie de Marine (RAMa) – La Lande d’Ouee: 24 BF50 155mm towed
2nd Regiment d’Artillerie de Marine (RAMa) – Montlhery: Mobilization only
6th Regiment du Genie (RG)(Combat Engineers) – Angers: 2 companies
9th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) – Nantes:

11th Division Parachutiste - Toulouse, France: 13500 personnel
1st Regiment de Hussards Parachutists (RHP) – Tarbes: 36 ERC 90S, 12 Milan
1st Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Bayonne: Parachute Infantry Regiment
3rd Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Carcasonne: Parachute Infantry Regiment
6th Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Mont de Marsan: Parachute Infantry Regiment
8th Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) – Castres: Parachute Infantry Regiment
1st Regt de Chasseurs Parachutiste (RCP) – Saint-Médard-en-Jalles Camp de Souge: Parachute Infantry Regiment
9th Regt de Chasseurs Parachutiste (RCP) – Pamiers: Parachute Infantry Regiment
2nd Regiment Etrangere Parachutiste (REP) – Calvi: Parachute Infantry Regiment
35th Regiment d'Artillerie Parachutiste (RAP) – Tarbes: 24 AU50 105mm towed
24th Regiment d’Artillerie – Saint Avold: Mobilization only
17th Regiment du Genie Parachutiste (RGP)(Airborne Combat Engineers) – Montauban:
7th Regiment Parachutiste de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RPCS) – Castres:
14th Regiment Parachutiste de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RPCS) – Toulouse:

27th Division Alpine - Grenoble, France: 8500 personnel
4th Regiment de Chasseurs metropolitains (RCh): 36 AML-90, 3 VAB, 12 Jeeps w/Milan
6th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Varces: Alpine Infantry Battalion
7th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Bourg Saint Maurice: Alpine Infantry Battalion
11th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Barcelonnette: Alpine Infantry Battalion
13th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Chambéry: Alpine Infantry Battalion
27th Battalion Chasseurs Alpin (BCA) – Annecy: Alpine Infantry Battalion
159th Regiment d'Infanterie Alpine (RIA) – Briancon: Alpine Infantry Battalion
93rd Regiment d'Artillerie Alpine – Varces: 24 AU50 105mm towed
75th Regiment d’Artillerie Alpine – Varces: Mobilization only
7th Battalion du Genie Alpine (BGDA) – Avignon:
27th Groupe-ment d'Helicopteres (GHL): 19 Alouette III, 11 Super Puma, 30 Gazelle/HOT
27th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) – Grenoble:

FAR Organic Units
17th Regiment de Commande-ment et de Soutien (RCS) – Maisons-Lafitte:
28th Regiment de Transmissions – Orleans:
602nd Regiment de Circulation Routiere – Dijon:
511th Regiemnt du Train:

Foreign Legion Group - Aubagne, France:
1st Regt Etrangere d'Infanterie (REI): VAB Regiment

Other
1t Regiment Parachutiste d'Infanterie de Marine (RPIMa) - used for SAS type missions:
Fusiliers-Marins: A 590 man 6 company Marine Commando unit.

East Africa – All units in Djibouti
13th Demi Brigade Legion Etrangere: 3 Infantry Cos, 1 AMX-10RC co, 1 mixed 105mm/155mm artillery battery
5th Regiment Inter-Armees Outre Mere: 3 Infanty Cos, 1 AMX-13 co, 1 mixed 105mm/155mm artillery battery
ALAT Detachment: 5 medium transport helicopters (SA-330)
10th Battalion de Commande-ment et de Soutien (BCS)
Squadron, Armee de l’Aire: 10 F-1C, 1 C-160, 2 SA-316, 1 SA-319

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Olefin

3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment - in reality it has 675 men organized into 5 companies, in the game it doesnt appear but its very obvious that it should be the deployed unit and not the 1st Regiment for reasons I state below

2nd edition Nato Vehicle Guide has 3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment in Kourou, Guiana guarding the Guiana Space Center (which is part of its RL duties). From what I understand, they also run a tough jungle warfare school.

If you want to go by canon, then thats where 3rd Foreign Legion Infantry Regiment is located.

and where is our resident Frenchman, Mohender, these days? Haven't seen him posting in awhile.

here's his oob

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=207

[Olefin]

RN I agree totally with the FAR in the game not matching the FAR in real life - it doesnt make any sense because as far as I remember the FAR and its components in real life were set before GDW issued that module.

And things like using the 1st Foreign Legion Regiment and missing units that had been deployed in Djibouti, in some cases for decades before the module was issued. If you read the RDF is makes it sound like the FAR showed up in 1995 and before that the French werent in the area when in reality - and by that I mean 1984 reality when they were putting the game together - they had been there for two decades!

this is yet another reason why I have been arguing that the canon needs to be corrected - at the least to get the right units there that really made up the FAR.

Right now, the way the canon reads, the French have taken a heck of a beating in those units for a country that is not at war and that has only been fighting guerrillas (these units were not part of the invasion of the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Germany in any way after all)

at the least it paints a picture of a lot of fighting in Djibouti that occurred to reduce those units that much

[James Langham]

The answer to the 1st may be an expansion of the Foreign Legion, I touched on this in my Foreign Troops article and may well now incorporate this.

[Olefin]

I agree with you there James - i.e. they make the 1st back into a combat unit and move the administrative elements to possibly the 4th regiment which was a training regiment - so now its responsible for both administration and training.

They could use some of the NCO's and officers from the original 1st as the officers and men for the "new" 1st Regiment.

One reason could be the big casualties that the other regiments took - i.e. they needed more punch in the field so they added a new regiment to give the Legion more combat punch.

By the way - another idea could be they convert one of the Engineering Regiments to a combat one and then rename it from Engineering to Infantry.

[Ironside]

Could disease have contributed to the losses? France could be unable to deliver adequate medical supplies to its forces in Africa.

Historically, until the discovery of anti-biotics, disease was the biggest killer of troops.

[Olefin]

I think that the losses are a combination of combat losses in Djibouti and Western Africa (the RDF does mention the FAR was in combat against pro-Soviet guerrillas in Mauritania and Senegal) as well as disease. And there could be another factor as well - i.e. they may have had ships sunk by Soviet submarines as well.

Even though the canon doesnt mention it neutrals have always been fair game in wartime - and France seems very committed to staying out of the war at all costs - even if it means ignoring attacks on its shipping by a Soviet submarine commander who shoots first and does ship recognition second. So could a ship full of AMX 10 RC armored cars have been sunk by a Soviet sub and thus explain why unit has no armored vehicles left at all?

Very possible.

Their is one other factor which would be desertion. As was mentioned in the Survivors Guide to the UK there are a sizeable minority of French officers and presumably soldiers who feel that France should be in this war against the Soviets. Possibly some of those who felt that way went over the hill once they got to the RDF and joined up with the Americans (or if they were Jewish possibly the Israeli forces in the area).

I wouldnt see a large number doing that - but it could explain some of the losses. (and open up a way for players who want to have French characters show up in the game in non-French units)

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

From RDF:

The French Force Actione Rapide (FAR or Rapid Action Force) is the visible symbol of French military and diplomatic presence in the Persian Gulf region. The FAR was created in the 1980's to provide France with power projection capabilities similar to those of CENTCOM. Like CENTCOM, it is a unified command.

The first major deployment of the FAR came in the fall of 1995. The Foreign Legion Operational Group was activated and sent to Djibouti to assist in internal security duties. A task force of French Marine Infantry was stationed at Dakar at the request of the Senegalese government. In 1998, when the Franco-Belgian Union was formed, Senegal and Djibouti became member nations. The biggest break came when the governments of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia gave permission for France to station troops in their countries (to the chagrin of some Americans in the region). The Paris government responded quickly and by fall of 1998, the 9th Marine Infantry Division and the 2nd Brigade of the 11th Airborne Division were in the region along with supporting elements. There they have remained, providing a visible symbol of France's commitment to the stability of the region (and to assure that France gets its share when the Americans leave).

(Bolding mine) Going off on a slight tangent here, that suggests to me that the French Government is still located in Paris in 1998, which is after the first wave of nuclear exchanges.

[Rainbow Six]

Perhaps some of the troops missing from the FAR were transferred from their parent units to reinforce units assigned to the Dead Zone?

Just out of interest, checking the V2 NATO Vehicle Guide, the average size of a French Division in Europe appears to be around 4,000 men (approx).

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

Not all of these units are fully deployed in the Persian Gulf

The real life FAR was composed of the following units.

4th Division Aeromobile: Nancy
6th Division Legere Blindee: Nimes
9th Division Marine: Nantes
11th Division Parachutiste: Toulouse
27th Division Alpine: Grenoble
Brigade logistique de la FAR: Maisons Lafittes
19th Brigade d’artillerie: Maisons Lafittes

Per NATO Vehicle Guide (V2 - French units aren't listed in V1) units not deployed to the Gulf were assigned as follows

4th Airmobile Division
Location: Nancy, France
Subordination: I Corps
Strength: 3,800 men

6th Light Armoured Division
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Subordination: III Corps
Strength: 4,400 men
Tanks: 36 AMX10RC

27th Alpine Division
Location: Grenoble, France
Subordination: I Corps
Strength: 4,400 men

Looks like some pretty substantial shortfalls in manpower compared to the figures in RN7's post - e.g. 27th Alpine is at almost half strength.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that French divisions are smaller and are more like large brigades - but you are right about them being undermanned

Clearly the French have taken a lot of casualties

I dont see the FAR transferring men back to France - remember even the French dont have a lot of oil - if you read Going Home helos and armor patrols only happened if someone had a damn good reason - i.e. they had oil and gas but not a lot of it

by the way - the fact that the 6th Light is mentioned shows that the GDW guys didnt know about the real disposition of the French Army - because two of its regiments are sitting in the Middle East per the RDF module

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Keep in mind that French divisions are smaller and are more like large brigades - but you are right about them being undermanned

Clearly the French have taken a lot of casualties

I dont see the FAR transferring men back to France - remember even the French dont have a lot of oil - if you read Going Home helos and armor patrols only happened if someone had a damn good reason - i.e. they had oil and gas but not a lot of it

I'm not suggesting there's regular movement between the Middle East and France. I think it's more likely that some of the troops assigned to the FAR never left France in the first place. Remember the occupation of the Dead Zone predates the French deployment to the Middle East, so it's possible that parts of the FAR were already committed in Europe before the Mid East deployment came up.

It seems to me that the most likely areas for the French to have suffered significant casualties are either the invasion of West Germany / the Netherlands (and subsequent actions) where they were in combat against the Dutch and (presumably) German Armies (iirc published material is a little light on details of what German units might have been involved) or losses incurred as a result of the nuclear attacks on France (of which we know there were some, just not the details).

Also worth considering that the French Army of T2K would have had large numbers of conscripts, which raises the question of what desertion rates would have been like?

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Per NATO Vehicle Guide (V2 - French units aren't listed in V1) units not deployed to the Gulf were assigned as follows

4th Airmobile Division
Location: Nancy, France
Subordination: I Corps
Strength: 3,800 men

6th Light Armoured Division
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Subordination: III Corps
Strength: 4,400 men
Tanks: 36 AMX10RC

27th Alpine Division
Location: Grenoble, France
Subordination: I Corps
Strength: 4,400 men

Looks like some pretty substantial shortfalls in manpower compared to the figures in RN7's post - e.g. 27th Alpine is at almost half strength.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 seems to have some strage entries and ommisions. It lists the 4th French Armored Division as part of the French I Corps orbat, yet the 4th Armored Division doesn't seem to exist in real life.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 also lists two Belgian divisions as part of the III French Corps whose French divisons are the 2nd and 10th Armored Divisons and the 8th Infantry Division. Yet according to Going Home there are only three French divisions in the French III Corps; 1st, 2nd and 17th Armored Divisions who have three Belgian armoured regiments, two Belgian armoured cavalry regiments, two Belgian mechanised infantry regiments, one Belgian artillery regiment, one Belgian paratroop regiments and a Senegalese infantry regiment. The 1st Armored Division is attached to the French I Corps in NATO Vehicle Guide V2, and the 17th armored division doesn't seem to exist.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 seems to have assigned the 4th Airmobile Division and the 27th Alpine Division to the I French Corp, and the 6th Light Armored Division to the III French Corps when the 4th Airmobile and 6th Light Armored Divisions probably should have been sent to the Middle East with the rest of the FAR. GDW's thinking may have been that aviation assets woud be usefull to the French in Europe, but I think they forgot about the aviation assets assigned to the three French Corps in Europe which included them.

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 also seems to have missed out on all the French regional forces which organisationaly at least could muster 18 divisions and 7 brigades. Maybe the 4th and 17th Armored Divisions are taken from this.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

NATO Vehicle Guide V2 also seems to have missed out on all the French regional forces which organisationaly at least could muster 18 divisions and 7 brigades. Maybe the 4th and 17th Armored Divisions are taken from this.

No change there...German, British, and Canadian reserve forces were all totally omitted from the V1 and V2 vehicle guides. From memory I think that meant the Germans were short six Divisions - the UK was definitely short one. I think the only reserves that were covered in any sort of detail - on the western side at least - were the US National Guard / Army Reserve.

[Olefin]

Actually the FAR deployed to Africa starting in 1995 according to the RDF

Sept 1995

Not to be outdone, the French activated the Foreign Legion
Operational Group (GOLE) and deployed them to Djibouti. The
US government committed the rest of the 7th Special Forces
Group and a ranger battalion for anti-terrorist duties.

That means all the French Legion units in the RDF are there in 1995 long before WWIII starts in Europe or any action against Germany

August 24, 1998

Their cargo was the 9th Marine Division. Two days later, forward elements of the French 11th Airborne Division began landing in Djibouti. The French government made it clear that these forces were there to assist the
host governments in maintaining order.


The first major deployment of the FAR came in the fall of
1995. The Foreign Legion Operational Group was activated and
sent to Djibouti to assist in internal security duties. A task force
of French Marine Infantry was stationed at Dakar at the request
of the Senegalese government.

As to combat

When the FAR was reorganized in 1990, Major General
Cervelan was named as its' chief of staff. In 1998, when the
FAR deployed in part to West Africa, General Cervelan commanded
an operational group in action against pro-Soviet
guerillas in Senegal and Mauritania.


So what do you have - the Foreign Legion Units and at least a detachment of Marines were gone from France by 1995

The rest of the force showed up in August of 1998

French takeover of the Dead Zone was in January of 1998

So what do we know

1) Part of the FAR was in Senegal and Mauritania prior to August of 1998 fighting guerrilla forces

2) The Foreign Legion showed up in Djibouti in 1995

Thus the casualties suffered by the following groups all had to occur from 1995 until Dec 2000 in Djibouti as they didnt do any fighting in the Middle East

Foreign Legion Operational Group (GOLE) HQ: Djibouti
13th Foreign Legion Demi-brigade (500 men) Djibouti
1st Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Basra, Iraq
2nd Foreign Legion Infantry Rgt (600 men) Djibouti
1st Foreign Legion Cavalry Rgt (600 men, 24 AFVs):
Djibouti
2nd Foreign Legion Parachute Rgt (600 men) Al Kuwayt,
Kuwayt

the obvious inference is that there has been a heck of a lot of fighting that is not covered in the canon between the Legion and Ethiopia, Somalia and Eritrea all of which border on Djibouti

enough to have destroyed at least 12-24 AFV's and somewhere around 1600-2000 men or so

Keep in mind - Africa is one heck of a dangerous place - and anti-guerrilla fighing even if you control the sea and air is a great way to take lots of casualties

i.e. Vietnam for the US and Afghanistan for the Soviets

[pmulcahy11b]

I just seems that the more we go over GDW's material, the more flubs we find...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

(Bolding mine) Going off on a slight tangent here, that suggests to me that the French Government is still located in Paris in 1998, which is after the first wave of nuclear exchanges.

That makes sense since France was technically and practically a neutral. Attacking the capital is IMO an outright and unmistakable declaration of WAR!! (as if nuking anything else wasn't...?)

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Perhaps some of the troops missing from the FAR were transferred from their parent units to reinforce units assigned to the Dead Zone?

That's pretty much what I was saying a few days back in another thread. The "missing" troops may either have never left France, or were withdrawn to the battered homeland to provide replacements/assistance on the borders and internal civil duties.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

It seems to me that the most likely areas for the French to have suffered significant casualties are either the invasion of West Germany / the Netherlands (and subsequent actions) where they were in combat against the Dutch and (presumably) German Armies (iirc published material is a little light on details of what German units might have been involved) or losses incurred as a result of the nuclear attacks on France (of which we know there were some, just not the details).

France may have lost a disproportionate number of troops from nukes due to them being stationed to defend vital facilities and infrastructure from saboteurs. It is possible the French believed that as they were neutral, they would not be targeted by nukes, and so were caught napping without their units being disbursed as were the actual belligerents.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually the FAR deployed to Africa starting in 1995 according to the RDF

In at least 2.x, France (and others) had at least some indications of the coming conflict.

1994
As Europe shows signs of increasing instability, Germany begins quietly increasing its force structure. In January of 1994, the nine understrength divisions which had been maintained as a token army are brought up to full strength and each is given a territorial (reserve) brigade.

It's quite possible the French would have also "quietly" responded, strengthening their borders, particularly that with Germany, a traditional enemy and the most likely direction the Pact would attack from if/when things spiralled completely out of control. This could also explain why the numbers in Africa don't quite add up to your expectations.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Sept 1995

Not to be outdone, the French activated the Foreign Legion Operational Group (GOLE) and deployed them to Djibouti. The US government committed the rest of the 7th Special Forces Group and a ranger battalion for anti-terrorist duties.

That means all the French Legion units in the RDF are there in 1995 long before WWIII starts in Europe or any action against Germany.

True, this was before war actually broke out, but we already know tensions had increased dramatically. No competent government would ever even consider reducing security at home in those circumstances unless they felt what was left was sufficient.

Additionally, what I'm seeing is not the entire Foreign Legion being deployed, but rather one, unspecified component of it - GOLE.

As for the missing units in the vehicle books, the game was written by Americans and aimed at mainly American players. Great focus has been given to US units, dispositions and conditions at home with only enough attention to other nationalities to provide a little "flavour".

[Olefin]

Sorry Leg - but its obviouis to anyone who looks at the order of battle and the number of men that they have taken casualties and thats why their units are smaller.

Those units were deployed in 1995 prior to the war breaking out in Europe. And frankly whats in another version doesnt play here.

The RDF was written for V1 and thats what we have to use. It was never rewritten or brought up to date for that different timeline.

And if you read the actual history of French deployments in Africa they have taken casualties in every one of those deployments.

Plus the FAR was meant to be sent to hot spots, kick butt and take names. You usually dont do that without putting a lot of your own guys into body bags. This isnt a REMF unit - they are the tip of the spear.

And the tip of the spear usually gets pretty bloody doing its job.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Sorry Leg - but its obviouis to anyone who looks at the order of battle and the number of men that they have taken casualties and thats why their units are smaller.

Anyone else want to speak up here?

Originally Posted by Olefin

The RDF was written for V1 and thats what we have to use.

If you look really close and spend five minutes reading the V1 and V2 vehicle guides, you can see the text is 99.99999999% cut and pasted. Unit histories are word for word the same. Therefore, the RDF Sourcebook didn't need to be updated - it's still the same damn thing.
Look a little more and you'll see that after about December 1996, the history in the BYB is also cut and pasted form V1 - http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=3109

Originally Posted by Olefin

And frankly whats in another version doesnt play here.

So you're the spokesperson for absolutely everyone then? How'd that happen? I didn't see a vote on it...

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually the FAR deployed to Africa starting in 1995 according to the RDF

Actually, part of the FAR deployed to Africa starting in 1995. As far as I can tell, two Divisions of the FAR never left Metropolitan France and a third Division has only went as far (no pun intended) as Belgium.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That makes sense since France was technically and practically a neutral. Attacking the capital is IMO an outright and unmistakable declaration of WAR!! (as if nuking anything else wasn't...?)

I agree. It makes sense to me as well, but it is one of the things that comes up from time to time in discussions of how heavily France was attacked in 1997. The Big Yellow Book does state that Marseille is the largest undamaged City in France, but as mentioned before, Marseille is the second largest City in France anyway (after Paris) so that doesn't really help clear things up. Nevertheless, it's useful to find confirmation that whilst Paris appears to have suffered some damage (somehow) during 1997 it appears to be still able to function as the French Capital / Seat of Government in 1998.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That's pretty much what I was saying a few days back in another thread. The "missing" troops may either have never left France, or were withdrawn to the battered homeland to provide replacements/assistance on the borders and internal civil duties.

Sorry, was offline for a couple of days earlier in the week, so must have missed that. In any event, I agree with you.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Sorry Leg - but its obviouis to anyone who looks at the order of battle and the number of men that they have taken casualties and thats why their units are smaller.

I think it's obvious that French units are operating with less than their normal peacetime complements. No doubt some of these losses are down to casualties suffered in combat, but as has been stated, there may be other reasons why units might be missing troops. Sickness and desertion are two that spring immediately to mind - there are probably others. In addition to that it appears that the French Army order of battle includes several units that don't exist IRL, so perhaps some of the missing troops were used as cadres for War raised Divisions.

[Olefin]

I agree completely with sickness and desertion having taken its toll. After all Africa is not exactly the healthiest place to be even when there is widespread medical aid and assistance.

And use what happened to the 13th Demi Brigade as the real indication - that unit started the war in Africa as it was in Djibouti since the early 60's. If they are down that many men (300 out of 800) then clearly there has been some serious fighting with the French in Africa.

And since the RDF does clearly mention fighting with anti-Soviet guerrilas in two countries then they did take casualties.

And the FAR, at least the components as mentioned in the game, have been in Africa for quite some time.

More than enough for the French to take the losses and reduction in forces seen here.

As for transferring men - the Legionaires would stay with the Legion regiments. The airborne and marines could be transferred elsewhere but the Legion stays in their own units. Thats a very long standing tradition.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There's another reason why French units outside Metropolitan France may have less armoured vehicles - they were never issued the full complement in the first place. Despite what real world TOE's state, a number of French units deployed outside France never had the number of armoured vehicles that they should have had.

My source? An old friend who was an Infantry Corporal in the French Foreign Legion in the late 1980s-early 1990s who had been stationed in Djibouti for a few years plus spent time in French Guiana.

One particular thing I remember him saying was that one of the infantry units in Djibouti didn't have the full number of APCs allocated and the base they were stationed at was still operating two SdKfz251 halftracks (that had been refurbished in France after WW2 and sent to French units in Djibouti in the 1950s).

Yes this is anecdotal but it's not atypical of overseas deployments for some militaries and could be used to help explain the lower number of armoured vehicles compared to what the official lists state it should be.

[Olefin]

"One particular thing I remember him saying was that one of the infantry units in Djibouti didn't have the full number of APCs allocated and the base they were stationed at was still operating two SdKfz251 halftracks (that had been refurbished in France after WW2 and sent to French units in Djibouti in the 1950s)."

thats a great detail - amazing to think they were still operational after all that time.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I agree completely with sickness and desertion having taken its toll.

Ok, so sounds like we're agreed that if you look at the order of battle and the number of men it's obvious that they have taken casualties in combat, and suffered losses due to desertion, sickness, and possibly a host of other reasons and thats why their units are smaller. Maybe one of their ships sunk en route (I think someone mentioned the possibility of the Soviets torpedoing one in one of the threads about this, but a ship could go down for a number of reasons other than enemy action)

(It also occurred to me last night that one of those unidentified reasons could be that the French troops in Quebec could have come from units assigned to the FAR).

Originally Posted by Olefin

After all Africa is not exactly the healthiest place to be even when there is widespread medical aid and assistance.

To be fair, my comments about sickness were intended to refer to French forces in general, not Africa specifically, but you make a good point.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

...Maybe one of their ships sunk en route (I think someone mentioned the possibility of the Soviets torpedoing one in one of the threads about this, but a ship could go down for a number of reasons other than enemy action)...

As a little twist on this thought, what if a ship carrying replacement vehicles made it through to the docks, just not the right docks?

Maybe they had engine trouble and had to pull into a safe/neutral harbour close by but as the global situation got worse, the crew left the ship to either get to a safer place or to go home.
The ship is still there, unloaded and the locals haven't touched it for fear of reprisals (or maybe they have looted what they could but the vehicles are too big to unload without qualified crane operators).

Or to take it further, perhaps the ship is in the right place but anchored outside the harbour because there was no qualified pilot to bring it in. As the global situation got worse, the crew got tired of waiting and abandoned the ship. There's nobody in the port who knows what's on the ship, it's just sitting there, waiting for a crew and a pilot.

The ship may be French registered or not but the cargo is definitely French and for use only by their military. The French government wants something done about the situation but maybe they don't know exactly where the ship is. They want the cargo, either returned to France or put into the hands of French forces in the region.

Other forces may be aware of the ship and that it carries a slew of armoured vehicles (and whatever else). They want the cargo for themselves. They could be ill-organized pirates looking for some big profits, they could be a local militia looking for some big toys to make them the equal of bigger militias or they could be a foreign military unit that wants the vehicles for their own use (or maybe even just as a bargaining chip?)

Could make for an interesting side adventure for the PCs.

[Olefin]

GREAT IDEA Stainless Steel!!

Didnt the Russians or Ukrananians have a ship full of tanks they were shipping to Africa a couple of years ago get grabbed by Somalian pirates?

You could have the people who have the vehicles trying to sell them to the highest bidder possibly and have all types of interesting people in the port that the PC's could encounter.

And it could be a great way to have the players play French characters but not necessary in the RDF - i.e. a bunch of commandos or Marines assigned to get the vehicles back.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Olefin

GREAT IDEA Stainless Steel!!

Didnt the Russians or Ukrananians have a ship full of tanks they were shipping to Africa a couple of years ago get grabbed by Somalian pirates?

You could have the people who have the vehicles trying to sell them to the highest bidder possibly and have all types of interesting people in the port that the PC's could encounter.

And it could be a great way to have the players play French characters but not necessary in the RDF - i.e. a bunch of commandos or Marines assigned to get the vehicles back.

Thanks
I totally forgot about those Somali pirates hijacking that cargo ship loaded with Russian tanks but yeah, that's another aspect of what I was thinking of - some way to have the vehicles delivered without them actually reaching their intended operator.

[Legbreaker]

As long as the ship stayed afloat there'd be a hell of a fight over it the moment somebody found out what it carried. If it couldn't be recovered in short order, it'd be a certainty to be scuttled asap just to prevent anyone else grabbing it.