Arming the Omega ships

[Olefin]

One way for the US to get a lot of equipment home during Omega would have been to arm the civilian ships they used. And I not talking about trying to justify taking home tanks or SPG.

I mean it as a way of taking home machine guns, mortars ,artillery pieces, anti-tank guns, anti-tank rockets and launchers, and anti-aircraft launchers and missiles and ammo for those weapons.

Would be easy to justify such an exercise. That way you get a bunch of stuff home and not just a mob of 43,000 men.

Imagine your typical container ship - to arm it properly you would want at least 2-4 artillery pieces, a couple dozen machine guns, four to eight man-portable anti-aircraft missiles and at least a few tankbuster type rocket launchers plus ammo for those weapon systems.

Now multiple that by the size of the fleet and the US could easily have brought home several batteries of howitzers let alone a lot of other weapons and still obey the letter of the agreement with the Germans.

And those weapons would make a huge difference at home even if the units getting them are foot infantry and using horses or oxen to haul their guns.

And it works perfectly with canon - no vehicles go, no tanks, no AFV's - but the US doesnt go home empty handed either. And even then most likely the majority of such weapons would still end up in German hands.

[Legbreaker]

Small flaw to your idea - OPORD OMEGA states in section 3. "Execution", subsection e. paragraph 1) "to turn in vehicles and heavy equipment".
Additionally, Section 2. "Mission", states "Vehicles and heavy equipment will be transferred to FRG prior to departure".

I'd say artillery, AA guns and the like could well be classified as heavy equipment. Might see a few machineguns and shoulder fired AA missiles, but as the latter are somewhat rare by 2000, and the task force isn't likely to be attacked from the air (especially as they're leaving and therefore not an economically viable target for the scarce Pact air assets), the escorting warship(s) should be sufficient.

And don't forget they're German ships burning German oil. The Germans have the upper hand here and can pull the pin on the whole operation if the Americans try to smuggle something aboard they're not supposed to.

[Olefin]

and the Germans are still part of NATO and still have American troops fighting for them and with them that didnt leave

and artillery and such would be used by TF34 as needed to defend the ships

remember this isnt a mob running for vessels with a zombie horde on their behinds - this is an organized military operation

I dont see the US turning over squat if the Germans said you cant take enough weapons to defend the ships properly especially after the losses the US took in several units to Soviet commerce raiders on the way over

this isnt the US being thrown out under the guns of the Germans - if that is how you read Omega then you need to seriouisly re-read the module

And we all know of is one escort - you are the one that keeps harping on only the ships mentioned in canon. I sure as hell wouldnt want my division setting foot on a ship that has no way to defend itself after hearing for years about how Soviet commerce raiders just about wiped out some units on their initial crossings.

True some divisions are showing up as mobs - but not all of them.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Towed VADS and un-shipped Chaparral systems (e.g., turrets & electronics, with the actual vehicles left as soft-skinned PCs/prime movers), MANPADS like Redeye & Stinger, Hawk batteries, that sort of thing is what I'd expect for fleet air defense, and then probably not more than one, possibly two such system per vessel (discounting a likely large number of Redye & Stinger missiles), with John Hancock in constant radio contact with the rest of the TF, keeping a close watch via radar.

Plus the fact that the Soviets never really had much in the way of fleet-air anyhow. I seriously doubt the frail, pathetic Yak-38 forgers are flying in 2000; the real threat (Bears & Backfires) are probably as grounded as the US Strategic fleet.

That might make an interesting alternate scenario...lets say the prevailing fear when planning OpOrd Omega is that the Soviets, once they catch wind of TF34, decide to make one last sortie with their remaining bombers (say 3 Bears and a couple of Backfires), consolidated at a single airbase on the Kola peninsula, and sink as much of TF34 as possible...the characters are contacted well in advance and given a mission to smuggle a nuclear warhead (something in the 2-3 MT range, a real crowd-pleaser) close enough to the base to put it out of commission, then haul ass back down through Norway where they'll meet up with a ship dispatched from TF34 to pick them up by x-date...but like the rest of TF34 it will only wait so long...hmm...might make for an interesting campaign...

Anyway that aside there's also the threat of commerce raiders in the form of the rare Alfa class sub moping around out there.

[Olefin]

I am not saying the US takes everythign they have - they take enough for proper fleet defense and then leave the rest

and you defintiely need the artillery for fleet defense as well - i.e. if something happened to the Hancock, if shes the only escort, then all it would take is one gunboat and they could pick off the ships one at a time

its basically taking the Pirates of the Vistula approach to the fleet - i.e. the only way that tug is making it to Warsaw is some guns so you can take on that fleet when you get there

same with this fleet - and the Germans arent idiots - they know the US still has nukes left in its arsenal - I highly doubt they want a very pissed off US steaming after most of their evacuated troops die because the Germans wouldnt let them arm the ships for fleet defense

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Also, I never interpreted OpOrd Omega as being "Achtung raus!", either. I mean nobody in any situation real or imagined ever thinks another nation's government are your nation's bestest buddies in the whole world, but I just don't see the Germans as wanting to be borderline belligerent with the US over this or that this verges on them throwing us out, or them really really not wanting us to leave but preferring us as cannon fodder. If that were the case, they might well have just kept the oil discovery quiet and used it for civilian purposes or used a remaining refinery to convert it to Avgas as an incentive to keep us there: Oh hey guess what Amerikaner pals! We can get some of our planes flying air support and transportation again for a bit, isn't that wunderbar?

Honestly I think the prevailing issue with vehicles has little to do with the US & Germany being at loggerheads and more a happy circumstance of the US wanting fuel to get home (check), but also enough space to get everyone home (check - only if we don't take all the vehicles).

Finally there's an issue of the ships themselves: are any really suited to carrying large numbers of armored vehicles? How many are low-draft tramp steamers? Pleasure/cruise ships? etc.? I doubt there's much in the way of RO-RO transports among them. Even if you have a ship that has the gross carrying capacity to haul four Abrams tanks, or even a dozen, does Bremerhaven have the equipment to load them on board? Even if it does, does Norfolk have the equipment to unload them, by which I mean incredibly heavy-duty cranes, still in operation?

Now, in my admittedly very very non-canon own campaign ideas, I've got the US taking some armor home, and to the RDF, but the bulk of it is getting left behind - simply because it's better served there. There's armor already at home, plus some is being brought home too, and that's enough. Compared to the situation in Europe, the Middle East is practically pre-war; they've even got Tac Air for crying out loud. So yeah, different story there. But, again, it's just mine and decidedly non-canon and no better than what's official.

[Olefin]

and we know that they may have taken some armor to the Middle East - remember suddenly 35 tanks show up in the RDF come January 1 of 2001 - and thats just the net increase from July 1 - could have been more to make up for losses

I am thinking that there were ships that could load tanks but only a few and with the fuel shortages at home they may have sent those tanks to where they could still really be used - i.e. the RDF

and it really doesnt change canon that much - because those tanks and men could have been sent completely seperate from Omega - just because its not detailed doesnt mean much - after all they didnt detail the exact losses of the USN fleet at Kola just that it got shattered

so could they have sent tanks to the RDF and the Germans got 35 less and Omega isnt contradicted at all?

Sure - because that decision could have been made after Omega was issued. The characters got the original Omega orders which says the men go from Europe to Norfolk. Not Europe to Norfolk or the Middle East.

A follow up order that says that 6000 men go to the Middle East and as many tanks as the following ships can carry (i.e. ones capable of loading tanks) definitely could have been issued and the characters never see it. All they know is Norfolk until they get there and even after they sail until they see the ships assigned to the RDF peel off south.

By the way been thinking about who might also assist the US in getting tanks and men to the Middle East - and the obvious answer - the French. I.e. getting those reinforcements there means the US can continue to fight the Russians and they dont have to. A few ships and some fuel is a small price to pay for not having to throw down with the Soviets.

And per the RDF the French do have good relations with the US in the RDF. They just wouldnt tell the Germans it was the French assisting them since the Germans are just a little pissed at them over the Rhineland.

[Raellus]

I don't think the original premise of this thread is such a bad idea. If kept within reason, it doesn't really contradict canon either. It makes sense that each ship be able to defend itself from the threat of surface commerce raiders (at this point in the war, air and/submarine threats would be fairly rare). Therefore, I can see the Americans taking along thinks like artillery, AT weapons, and whatever MANPADs are left.

Some dual-purpose weapons systems would also be attractive/justifiable. I'm thinking AA guns (most of which are SP) and ADATs launchers. Both would be useful against ground targets back on American soil.

But I think canon is fairly clear that AFVs were to be left behind.

I think we've discussed this elsewhere, but I don't think the Soviets would attempt to attack the OMEGA fleet. I used to think so, but other forumites changed my mind. The Americans are leaving. Why risk strategic strike assets to kill them? The reward is minimal (they're leaving anyway) and the risk of both losing those strike assets, and a retalitory nuclear strike is pretty great.

But hey, ya'll are entitled to set up your T2KU however you like.

[Ironside]

What is TF34 being armed against? It's unlikely that the Soviets would attack it, even if they have anything left to attack it with, as the US forces are leaving Europe. As the British govt. is assisting the TF by allowing it to stop and collect US personnel from the UK I don't see any advantage to Britain in attacking the TF even if they might have the capability to.

As the TF is only possible with German assistance I think Germany can be left out as a possible agressor.

France? Again, as the TF is leaving Europe, any reduction in forces will improve France's position (although Germany's forces are now better equipped, US manpower now doesn't have to be taken into account). Besides, France is relatively undamaged and can the French govt. be sure that the US has no ICBM capability left? Trading Marseille for TF34 doesn't seem a good deal to me.

Pirates? I doubt that any ocean-going pirates remain; ocean-going traffic is almost nil so its economic feasability is very doubtful. Even if a ship of the TF is isolated somehow, all the troops aboard still have small arms which should be quite sufficient to drive off any small boats that approach; which I think would be the limit for pirate craft in the setting.

(I am assuming that all interested parties have sufficient intel assets to find out about TF34)

[Olefin]

Oh I totally agree with you - anything going to the US has the AFV's left behind. Taking tanks to the RDF to explain the tank reinforcment was discussed and unless we can get Frank Frey to weigh in on it is one possibility of many on how the US gets those extra tanks in the RDF.

(Heck the French could even transfer them to the RDF from their own stocks and that could explain the missing vehicles we have been discussing - i.e. they didnt lose them they gave them to the US in January of 2001 - on the premise of better to have the US use them and fight the Russians with them then us having to do it)

And arming them makes a lot of sense - keep in mind how vulnerable a civilian ship is to even a 40mm cannon. You dont need to be a big ship to take out a civilian ship.

And considering the state of recon - as in there is no recon satellite ability to warn them - if they cant defend themselves a lot of men are goign to be at risk

Take it from me - no matter how much those guys want to go home after seeing Soviet commerce raiders sink ships full of men there is no way they are getting on the evac ships unless they can defend themselves

they would take their chances in Europe first or say if thats your idea of a trip home then where do I sign up with the Germans

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Ironside

What is TF34 being armed against?

I suppose it's better to have and not need than need and not have, but I think you're right about a lack of potential agressors. Personally I think the biggest risk is a lone operational Soviet sub, which no amount of artillery is going to defend against.

That said, I think anything manportable, e.g. stingers, mortars, Tankbreaker / javelin and Dragon ATGM's, etc is fair game to be taken aboard. But I think the expectation would be that anything that needs to be towed. e.g. large calibre field guns gets handed over to the Germans. Sure, some might be smuggled aboard different ships (pretty sure that has been discussed before) but I think that would be the exception not the rule.

Mind you - and at the risk of veering off on a slight tangent - the John Hancock is the only warship mentioned but that doesn't conclusively mean there weren't other warships assigned to TF34. I've always thought it possible that there may have been at least one other, perhaps a Frigate or similar.

[Olefin]

biggest I am thinking of would be 105mm guns. That would be big enough to take on anything that a pirate or frigate would have and give them a fighting chance

And its not like the fleet is 100 ships or anything like that

this isnt the Americans loading up every gun they have and the SPG's for good measure

[Adm.Lee]

I'd agree with arming the ships, but the biggest things I'd try to take with me would be towed artillery, if there is any. The light divisions should have had some 105mm battalions.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Mind you - and at the risk of veering off on a slight tangent - the John Hancock is the only warship mentioned but that doesn't conclusively mean there weren't other warships assigned to TF34. I've always thought it possible that there may have been at least one other, perhaps a Frigate or similar.

Some of the warships listed in A Rock In Troubled Waters were mentioned as having been part of TF34, for at least part of its voyage.

[Olefin]

they joined up for the last part of the voyage once they got close to the US in that story.

And I agree totally that it would be nothing bigger than 105mm guns and probably 30 -40 rounds per gun for enough ammo.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

And I agree totally that it would be nothing bigger than 105mm guns and probably 30 -40 rounds per gun for enough ammo.

Of course that is completely contrary to canon, but hey, if that's the way you want to play it in your personal game world, have at it.

[Olefin]

actually its not contradictory to canon in any way. The vessels and if they were armed were not covered by anything in canon except to say that the John Hancock was there.

And mounting cannon and machine guns and bringing man portable SAM's on board to make defend the ships in no way contradicts canon. All the tanks, heavy vehicles, vehicle mounted AA systems, 155mm guns, etc.. still stay in Europe

If I said they tied down M1 tanks and SP M109's on the ships to defend them it would contradict canon - but I never said that.

As for the tanks getting to the RDF - that was a side comment about our earlier discussion and not in any way part of what might have been used to arm the ships so they got home in one piece.

And per canon they did get home in one piece.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

actually its not contradictory to canon in any way.

Try looking at the definition of "heavy equipment" then. I think you'll find under the notes for the M1113 at globalsecurity.org:

The expanded payload capacity of the vehicle led to it being used in a wide variety of roles where carrying heavy equipment was required.

Note the words "carrying" followed by "heavy equipment". Seems to me that if a Humvee can carry it (in addition to towing) it could be considered heavy equipment. Even if you discount items such as TOW launchers and the like, it would appear to me at least that a 105mm howitzer, 20mm PIVAD or 120mm mortar isn't exactly going to escape the "heavy" tag.

Tell you what, I'll look up the definitions for you.

The definition of the word "heavy" according to dictionary.com as a military noun is "a gun of great weight or large caliber."
A synonym for "heavy" is:
a. armed or equipped with large weapons, armour, etc
b. (of guns, etc) of a large and powerful type

The definition of "equipment from the same source is: "anything kept, furnished, or provided for a specific purpose."

Now shall we look at the definition of "heavy weapons"?
dictionary.com "noun: large but transportable armament [syn: artillery]"
http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictiona.../heavy+weapon: Any weapon such as a howitzer, mortar, heavy machine gun, and recoilless rifle that is usually part of infantry equipment.
According to U.S. Army regulations 320-5 (AR 320-5) "heavy weapons" are all "weapons such as mortars, howitzers, guns, heavy machineguns and recoilless rifles which are usually part of infantry equipment."

It's worth mentioning that even 3.5" Bazookas, grenade launchers and rifle grenades are considered heavy weapons by the US military. It's therefore rather likely IMO that TOW's, Stingers, and other manportable missiles and rockets will also be classified as "heavy" and technically subject to the Omega restrictions.

Note that in civilian life, "heavy equipment" applies to earth moving machinery, cranes, and the like. Therefore you can bet any engineer units will be stripped of their gear as well.

So, it's fairly obvious to all intelligent beings that artillery pieces are not going to be included in the items allowed to be taken back to the US. It's equally obvious that your argument about canon simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

To summarise, feel free to do what you like in your own game, but please, please, please stop trying to claim it's canon, you're right and everyone else is wrong - it just pisses everyone off and makes you look like an idiot.


Now, to get back to the topic of the thread, I can't see anything wrong with GPMGs being set up on the troop vessels for local AA and defence against potential boarders. Might even see the odd shoulder fired missile or rocket, but anything heavier is very, very unlikely and unnecessary since the fleet is escorted by warships and there's no reason for anyone to attack it in the first place.