Twilight 2013 - How are you going to use it?

[Haven]

Just wondering for future discussions....

Seems like all of the questions around here are centered around Twilight v1 or v2 and the canon timeline and wondered if anyone was planning on making the move?


I am probably going to be using the rules from Twilight 2013 and use my own timeline (which is a previous post around here)
But i would consider it basically option one v3 rules and timeline.



So wondered what y'all thought - even though most of the discussion for v3 is understandably on the 93 Studio Forums.

[kato13]

I put other. For the most part I am taking a wait and see attitude. Once I see reviews from people I trust (the people here) I will make my decision on purchasing the game. Given I am a child of the cold war I cannot imagine using the T2013 timeline over the V1 one, so at best I might use some of the rules and equipment stats.

Oh I changed the poll creation time to 10 min to prevent the problem you had before. Also deleted the duplicate thread.

[Haven]

I personally never really liked the Twilight v2.2 autofire/damage rules and it always kept me from fully adopting and embracing the rules.

I was always constantly dabbling in house rules and other rules systems but would always come back to Twilight rules as a 'standard'....


but its always the post-apoc military rpg/story that always kept me interested.

Now... i've come up with my own modified present day timeline and love the Twilight 2013 rules.

So... i am pumped!


NOTE: I wouldn't judge the Twilight 2013 time line on the little that has been released. I still don't like France being the country that launches the first nuke... but it for me where you wind up with the time line is the part that counts and you wind up with a really cool place for the PCs to interact with.
(kinda like forgiving a movie you like for being slightly less than realistic for the sake of the movie as a whole)

[kato13]

My system is a really odd custom mix of the following

V1 vehicle rules and timeline
CORPS/Timelords 75% of my Character attributes and task resolution.
V2 half of the Character generation system, some disease, rads,fatigue

I have pulled and customized individual rules from more than 20 different games so if there is good stuff in 2013 I am sure I will use some.

[Snake Eyes]

Max is currently running a bi-weekly 2013 campaign that I play in. If I ever run one myself it will be with the 2013 rule set and I'll modify the timeline and/or setting modified to suit my needs.

[Grimace]

I'll likely end up not buying it. The timeline doesn't interest me at all and some of the parts of rules that I've viewed seem needlessly complicated. I know they've created it with scalable rules so that you can do various levels of complexity, but some of the non-combat related rules seemed quite set and complicated. Dare I say, needlessly complex.

Now, since I've not completely, absolutely decided against it, if I hear enough good vibes from enough people, I may change my opinion. I know there are people who are just ga-ga over it, and that's great for them, but for me it'll take a heck of a lot more persuading.

[Mohoender]

I bought it yesterday and roughly read it (It's almost christmas, and I was being curious).

I found that they did a good job with the rules but I'm accustom to the old ones and will certainly not use them.

I found them very poor when it comes to equipments and even more so when it come to illiustration (a pity).

I disagree with the timeline but I might find some more inspiration from it. It's not only because I'm french but simply because I don't see France launching nukes at Belarus (that would be suicide and even more stupid to do it from the Baltic Sea). Then, lets suppose that it happens. I think that it will result in full scale revolution with execution of the president and government by the people . France sided against the war in Iraq and there is good reason for this among its population. Even with the death of 10000, I can't see the french people supporting a nuclear attack. However, they could back a conventional attack that would be carried out with the Russians (happy about getting Belarus back) and they would certainly accept the creation of concentration camps holding east europeans refugees . There are some fun ideas into this timeline, nevertheless, but as someone told me (about mine), it goes too fast and the world would need a little more time for military build up. I personnaly think that the Russians are currently improving but they see them as too interventionist (Ukraine is too big for them). In the meantime, US is too weak and we are far from a European defence.

As a result, I won't do much with this game but I was happy to read a full version

[Marc]

For the moment, I feel quite satisfied with my old v2.2 rulebook and the other stuff of the classical Twilight that I've managed to get (and, for the most part, I've still not used it) . The compatibility of v2.2 with Traveller: The New Era is an important feature, for me, and I consider the rules (with limited use of house-rules) are good enough. Perhaps I would buy it following the hunter/collector instinct that every GM has inside. But, without knowing the final product, a new timeline (I've read excellent and various timelines in this same forum) and a new set of rules to learn (and to communicate to my players) don't motivate me to make the expense. Of course, the hunter/collector instinct can make me change my opinion tomorrow...

[Raellus]

Unless it gets totally hammered by the critics and, more importantly, you guys, I will propably pick up a copy at some point down the road. Right now, my disposable outcome is going towards Christmas gifts for the fam. I'd feel like a bastard, buying more stuff for myself!

If the scenario that was posted on the old RPGHost board a while back is the one the T2013 people stayed with, I definitely won't be using it. I am open to using the rules, though. If they're good, why not? If I do though, I will probably stick to the old v1.0 timeline, my first love. I may also try to come up with my own revised present day armaggedon scenario or apply the rules to a Merc-style campaign.

[LAW0306]

Please explain to me how the Us is too weak? This is a serious question and would love to see your points.

[Mohoender]

From what I read (but as I said I read it lightly) I found the US position too passive at the political level (that might be true for every country in the timeline). It seems only concerned with its agenda, not taking into account what happens around it (not even the threat on its agenda).

France get 10000 killed and I haven't read a word on a US reaction about it (or anyone else by the way). I'm not thinking especially of a military action, but you'll have a political one: at the local level, at the European level, at the US level and at the international level (UN). The investigation seems to be carried out by France alone while I'll view the pressure on Belarus to come from all sides (Russia and China included).

Moreover, they definitely split Europe and US and I don't see this as realistic. Again from my understanding it seems that Europe is talking through NATO (unlikely as US remain the main contributor).

Russia attack Ukraine and again US doesn't move (Ok about Georgia but Ukraine is a different matter). In my timeline, US doesn't move either but Ukraine was the prime aggressor.

In south America, US doesn't seem to really stand with Colombia, it's most important current ally in the Region.

Finally, there are no true military build up before the war. I made that same mistake (considering its one) but I correct it since one of you made the point (and that is a very good point I think).

However, this opinion was made from a quick reading so I might be mistaken. That's the feeling I'm getting. I'll be reading it again when I get some time so.

[LAW0306]

yea this production is amature at its best too many points too cut it up with...

[kcdusk]

I'd be interested to get it from the rules point of view. To me, thats by far the most important thing. And it sounds like the guys behind it really put some thought into new rules/approachs to running a game.

The background, no matter how good, wont replace v1.0. But for new (ie under 25 years of age?) players a new background that sits better with their own real world history it might suit.

I havnet got the pdf yet. I am interested in doing so. I'm in no hurry (too much harpoon to read :-)

[Marc]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

But for new (ie under 25 years of age?) players a new background that sits better with their own real world history it might suit.

I totally agree with you about this point. I have forgotten all the new blood that may be wishing to explore the possibilities of a new Twilight setup. Mmmmm.. perhaps I'm getting older?

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by LAW0306

yea this production is amature at its best too many points too cut it up with...

So is this comment targeted solely at the setting and timeline or do you have specific complaints about character generation, the combat rules or any other element of gameplay in the new system?

[Haven]

Well, speaking as a 25 year old:

I like both timelines and love Cold War history and books and have read nearly every fiction coldwar goes hot book that would be considered 'main stream' (Clancy, Coyle, Peters, etc)..............


......but am currently playing a non-Coldwar gone hot game.



"Well that just proves kcdusk correct!"



Kinda, but I would attribute it more to the fact that i am a 'civvie' and never been in the military than anything else.

So, ORBATs, SOPs, and general 'high level' C&C of the military structure and operation doesn't really make sense to me so it is easier for me to create a 'Red Dawn' campaign using the rules.

Or now... the Twilight 2013 rules, because they are better.

[CStock88]

Ahoy there, new person chiming in.

I've been interested in a "Twilight" type of game for some time, now. Even though I'm "only" 20 years old, my interest in history has always drawn me towards the good ol' East-West Conflict. I got into Twilight 2000 v2.2 a while back, thanks to my friend getting a hold of his dad's old stuff; despite the inability to play the out-of-his-league civilian type, it was still loads of fun.

Ultimately, however, despite my personal interest in the Big Bad Red Menace and things May Have Been, it's really not that culturally relevant to me. I mean, honestly, I was 3 years old by the time the whole Cold War thing was over and done with. The aftereffects, of course, are relevant, but it took a while for me to be old enough to care about them While I do think it's interesting, and I like reading up on it... ultimately, I was born too late for it.

Which is why I'm actually really excited about Twilight: 2013. While there are some things in the new timeline that I don't really like (just as there some things in the old timeline I don't really like!), I find that, combined with the rules in the new edition of the game, it's all far more relevant to significant events that occured in my lifetime.

Oh yeah, plus, I dig how the new rules result in characters being incapacitated like no one's business. Neat way to emphasize that the best way to fight is to not fight at all, and, barring that, hide behind something really solid.

[Mohoender]

I made my own timeline which start roughly at the same time but with the war starting in 2011 (nukes falling from mid-2012 to fall of 2013) and things settling down around 2016.

My personnal opinion is mostly about the timeline. I find some qualities to it (actually I came up with some similar stuff). However, I find it too much focused on terrorism and i find some severe drawbacks.

The other weak point is about the equipments but that is from personnal taste. I like to have a wide range of equipments to draw on.

About rules, I have no real clue, I haven't read it and I'm growing tired of learning new rules. Nevertheless, I have seen some interesting points and a great advantage: they are not using the D20 system put up by Wizard.

Law might have been a little harsh when saying that it was amateur work but, actually, he is right also as one can consider the RPG community to be entirely made of amateurs (with some wrongly thinking of themselves as professionals/the sole exception probably being wizard of the coast). We are all amateurs around here, and I find that great. Some of us have great websites (they will recognize themselves) that I found more than valuable. Not to talk of this forum of course.

I'm answering a question I wasn't asked but that was one of the critics I had to face when editing my own game (being amateur) a few years ago. I found that funny coming from publishers who were making less money than the retail shop next door.

As a conclusion, let praise amateurs, they are doing a great job but, hopefully, that is open to critics. Anyway, from 25 years of role playing (Jesus time goes by) I only remember one rule: rules are merely made as guide; do and play as you please .

[kato13]

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

The DC working group (of which Law is a member) have crafted wonderfully logical and beautifully flowing time lines. They are working harder than anyone I know to provide us the best and most accurate background information. If in his opinion his work is superior I do not doubt him. The evidence I have seen supports that position IMHO.

The true irony is that Law will give his work away while T2013 will charge for it (not that I blame them). The "amateur" who does it only out of passion not personal gain will actually have more esteem in my eyes, even if the quality of the work was equal.

That being said we are all friends here and I hope that T2013 never creates factions and just gives everyone more options on whatever path they choose.

[Raellus]

Welcome to the old folks' home, CStock88 and Haven!

I think it's cool that you young bucks are into T2K at all. I can't really blame ya'll for going with the timeline that seems most relevant to you.

As a kid growing up during the later years of the Cold War, the v1.0 timeline feels most real to me. I remember when Red Dawn came out. My parents wouldn't let me see it but the trailers on TV both terrified and energized me. Terrified because I lived in Colorado. Energized 'cause I got a kick out of daydreaming about taking on the Russians with my friends just like the Wolverines. I guess you'd have to live through the fear (paranoia even), distrust, and jingoism of that era to fully appreciate the original Twilight scenario. When I first got my hands on the v1.0 box, I felt like I was seeing a glimpse of a very real, very grim future.

I also like alternative history feel that the v1.0 timeline has now. It's the world that could have been had USSR not collapsed and, for the most part, feels very real.

Anyway, if T2013 gets you excited about military-esque adventuring in a post-apoc world, then it must be doing something right. I'm eager to get a look at it.

BTW, before anyone starts ribbing me about making sure to get the large print edition, I'm 34.

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, I have to buy it first -- unfortunately, this month I had a couple of emergencies. The heater and AC both died (it's central air, so their tied together), and that cost $2500 to fix. At the end of last month, one of my little guys, Winston, was diagnosed with diabetes, and he's still having to get a lot of blood tests and rechecks to get his insulin dose right. And next month is probably out too, with Christmas and continuing checks for Winston. So it may be January before I get a look at T2K 2013.

I must say, though, I'm beginning to wonder about the timeline aspect, based on what's written here. Some other things may be out of whack as well. Maybe a T2K 2013 v2 in it's future?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

BTW, before anyone starts ribbing me about making sure to get the large print edition, I'm 34.

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

Thanks, Paul. I needed that!

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kato13

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

So? Are some of them among the amateurs thinking of themselves as professionals? If that's the case Law is right.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

So? Are some of them among the amateurs thinking of themselves as professionals? If that's the case Law is right.

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development? And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals." Who are these professionals selling their goods to anyway? Us. If the first set of buyers aren't happy with the product, word will get around -- and the product will be improved or perish. That's the way the marketplace works.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development? And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals." Who are these professionals selling their goods to anyway? Us. If the first set of buyers aren't happy with the product, word will get around -- and the product will be improved or perish. That's the way the marketplace works.

What is a valid idea? Forget about the sentence you quoted it might not be clear. I'm more or less saying the same than you (look at my previous posts).

The thing about buyers being happy or not about the product is not always true. Bad words can come out before you get any buyers and the words getting around are not that trusty. Many game don't get the time to improve and they perish from a lack of interest justified only by advices taken from people who never bought the game.

In the case of twilight 2013, they will need some improvement, and a lot of add-on. I found that sad for a 348 pages book. I haven't look at most of the rules yet, on the other hand, but I have already seen some interesting things in them (they speak in km/h and in meters; great I'm growing tired of speaking in cliks or watever fony measures). I would love to see some clearer elements on newer equipments, however: What is a muscle car? There are no illustration at all in this section (erf!) and very few vehicles. By the way there is a very good point for them: they recommend this forum.

[CStock88]

Well, all I can really say in follow up, is that everyone's entitled to their own opinions and preferences, naturally. The Twilight 2000 scenario is still really enjoyable. I also understand what you're saying about the people who initially contacted this forum - I'd be put off by that sort of behavior, too.

And by the way, if the DC Working Group's stuff is of the same quality as the thread about the JCS, CENTCOM, and Operation Omega, then I gotta say, I'd be really thrilled to read their finished product! Looks really cool, and is, IMHO, a major update on the Twilight 2000 scenario concept.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by CStock88

Well, all I can really say in follow up, is that everyone's entitled to their own opinions and preferences, naturally. The Twilight 2000 scenario is still really enjoyable. I also understand what you're saying about the people who initially contacted this forum - I'd be put off by that sort of behavior, too.

And by the way, if the DC Working Group's stuff is of the same quality as the thread about the JCS, CENTCOM, and Operation Omega, then I gotta say, I'd be really thrilled to read their finished product! Looks really cool, and is, IMHO, a major update on the Twilight 2000 scenario concept.

Agree. By the way my opinion is that of a customer as I bought it. Then, they are giving some good explanation on their own website. I don't agree with everything they say but their position is well defended.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

And I have kids older than the lot of you.
But we have a three generation Twilight family too.

(Wondering what that has to do with 2013.. )
Grae

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development? And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals."

I guess I am an amateur. I've never made a penny (and don't really want to) by publishing game materials. That doesn't mean that we (in the DC Group) don't aim to turn out product as good as or better than what professional game designers turn out. If fact, we'd like to turn out "improved/revised" versions of the original canon materials, using the familiar GDW appearance and improved graphical content and revised/more detailed background. Paul, your web site is far above and beyond what the professionals have turned out by a huge margin!

As far as subject matter knowledge, we (like many others here) are not amateurs. Law, Flamingo and I are current or former NCOs with over 10 deployments between us. We are all school-trained historians and I've got a master's in national security policy and have worked on logistics at both the retail and wholesale level - in a period of a few years I worked on deploying both multiple corps and my company. As Kato alluded to, when the 2013 project came looking for volunteers the attitude was not very positive - since we had not published games before they discounted our professional RL abilities.

From the material that has been leaked (I have yet to see the finished product) the 2013 timeline is much more fantasy than the v1 timeline was in 1984. We're working on answering more of the v1 timeline what if? posed by GDW in 1984; IMHO the 2013 timeline what if? requires a lot more answers and fantasy to get there from here.

With that said, I hope that the 2013 rules are more an improvement over the v1 and v2.2 rules. I personally never liked the v2.2. adapted Traveller character generation system and the pretty clumsy v1 combat rules. With 15 years of RPG development between v2.2 and 2013 I can see how the rules could be radically different. I see rules as a tool to help the GM tell a story - and now we have a fifth method (v1, v2.2, Gurps, 2013 and the Targan-system-that-shall-not speak-its-name) to tell three possible related stories (v1, v2 and 2013 timelines). I think this is great, to each their own.

CStock88, I'll start a new thread and repost what we've put out so far.