OT: Female Rangers: Bobbi Lee's real-life counterpart is coming

[Matt Wiser]

Saw this on Google News: The Army is apparently getting very serious about women in combat arms. How serious? Serious enough that Ranger School may soon start to admit women.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...84G00820120517

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...1TU_story.html

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...MBnNK7Jaw9QyOQ

It's coming, gents......

[Targan]

As long as females don't have their own special physical standards it's all good.

[Raellus]

Apparently, the USMC is starting to move in that direction as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/25/us...ont-lines.html

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Saw this on Google News: The Army is apparently getting very serious about women in combat arms. How serious? Serious enough that Ranger School may soon start to admit women.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...84G00820120517

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...1TU_story.html

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...MBnNK7Jaw9QyOQ

It's coming, gents......

As long as standards are not lowered for the shemales, no problem in Ranger course. What 99% fail to understand is the Ranger course is a LEADERSHIP course, not a combat arms enchancement of combat skills really. Yes there is emphasis on infantry combat patrolling, but it's really how well are you doing as a leader. THAT is what you're really (are at least were in the past) graded on. And not just by the Tacs but your peers as well.

Old School Ranger

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

As long as standards are not lowered for the shemales, no problem in Ranger course. What 99% fail to understand is the Ranger course is a LEADERSHIP course, not a combat arms enchancement of combat skills really. Yes there is emphasis on infantry combat patrolling, but it's really how well are you doing as a leader. THAT is what you're really (are at least were in the past) graded on. And not just by the Tacs but your peers as well.

Old School Ranger

Ranger School is a leadership course, but it's also a gut check -- can you keep going and making good decisions when your average person would fail? Even the Swim Test and RIP are primarily gut checks.

As far as women who could pass Ranger school -- I've met several women in the Army who could make it as Infantrymen, but only one who could pass Ranger School -- Diana Stork. She's not tall, isn't bulging with muscle (though she is definitely strong), but she has the willpower, intelligence, leadership ability, and constitution to do it. And you wouldn't kick her out of bed either...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

And you wouldn't kick her out of bed either...

But does she rate next to Jessica?

[weswood]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

But does she rate next to Jessica?

I think I'm sensing a little obsession here, Leg.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

But does she rate next to Jessica?

Originally Posted by weswood

I think I'm sensing a little obsession here, Leg.

As obsessions goes..




I'm ok with that one.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by weswood

I think I'm sensing a little obsession here, Leg.

I'm sensing a certain lack of moral fibre here too...

I mean how can you justify NOT having an obsession with such divine perfection!?

[weswood]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I'm sensing a certain lack of moral fibre here too...

I mean how can you justify NOT having an obsession with such divine perfection!?

Welll, I have to admit I was an avid Dark Angel fan back in the day.

[Legbreaker]

That's more like it!

[weswood]

And that one movie she spent most of in a bikini.........sigh.......

[Targan]

I'm sure that when Ms Alba heard about my wedding that she must've been bitterly disappointed that in the previous years she hadn't tried harder to get my phone number. Poor lass.

[Snake Eyes]

I will concur that Ms. Alba represents the final step in perfection of the human genome. I wonder how she'd fare in Ranger school?

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

I will concur that Ms. Alba represents the final step in perfection of the human genome. I wonder how she'd fare in Ranger school?

Baddum tish! And just like that the clever Snake (or should I call you Mr Eyes?) brings us back to the original topic of this thread. Bravo!

[Legbreaker]

I've a feeling she wouldn't have to raise a finger to pass it. How many of the staff would be willing for her to break a fingernail, or *gasp* get a splinter!?
All she'd need to do is flash that dazzling smile (and perhaps a few other body parts) and INSTANT PASS!

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Ranger School is a leadership course, but it's also a gut check -- can you keep going and making good decisions when your average person would fail? Even the Swim Test and RIP are primarily gut checks.

As far as women who could pass Ranger school -- I've met several women in the Army who could make it as Infantrymen, but only one who could pass Ranger School -- Diana Stork. She's not tall, isn't bulging with muscle (though she is definitely strong), but she has the willpower, intelligence, leadership ability, and constitution to do it. And you wouldn't kick her out of bed either...

You are quite right and I fully agree. The qualities you mention are what counts. Size and body strenght are NOT everything. It's what you have between your ears and in your heart. OH.. but she could NEVER be an InfantryMAN..

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

You are quite right and I fully agree. The qualities you mention are what counts. Size and body strenght are NOT everything. It's what you have between your ears and in your heart. OH.. but she could NEVER be an InfantryMAN..

Infantryperson?

[Webstral]

Ranger School is not an infantry school, though infantry tactics and training are the vehicle by which learning is acquired. Ranger School is a leadership school. What happens in Ranger School and what happens in the Ranger Regiment are very, very different. There is a certain logic to having women be tabbed [wear the Ranger tab above their unit patch, signifying graduation from Ranger school] if they are going to be in leadership positions and they are competing for promotion with men who can be expected to be tabbed. If the male leaders in a given MOS generally are not tabbed, then there is no compelling reason to open the school to women from that MOS. In other words, if male artillery crews and MPs are attending Ranger School, then it's hard to justify keeping the women out.

I'm still not ready to see women in tank crews and infantry squads. Call me old fashioned. The shenanigans caused by having women in any unit can add up to real problems. Men in their late teens have enough maturity challenges without adding more. While this might be tolerable in combat support and combat service support units, I cringe to think of the effect on the infantry and tankers. I say this as a man who served in MI for three years in a variety of positions, mostly under female supervisors.

[95th Rifleman]

I'm inclined to take the long view.

History has shown time and time again that women can make it on the frontline. Going back to the olden days when war was very much an in-your-face occupation in which you where close enough to smell what the other guy had for breakfast before you killed him. If women could do that, I rather think they can do quite well in a foxhole.

The problem is culture, overcoming a few centuries of sexism ingrained into western society. This will not be a quick or painless process as we have a culture that can not accept women in the armed forces due to historical pressure. It's rather criminal how women have been devalued over the past four centuries, however it'll be a hell of an effort to overcome that programming.

In time the intermixing we see in scifi shows such as BSG, Aliens and Starship troopers will be the norm, however it'll take at least a century at current social development.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Infantryperson?

Naw.. doesn't have the ring. Light Weapons Specialist is how the 11B use to be.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I'm inclined to take the long view.

History has shown time and time again that women can make it on the frontline. Going back to the olden days when war was very much an in-your-face occupation in which you where close enough to smell what the other guy had for breakfast before you killed him. If women could do that, I rather think they can do quite well in a foxhole.

The problem is culture, overcoming a few centuries of sexism ingrained into western society. This will not be a quick or painless process as we have a culture that can not accept women in the armed forces due to historical pressure. It's rather criminal how women have been devalued over the past four centuries, however it'll be a hell of an effort to overcome that programming.

In time the intermixing we see in scifi shows such as BSG, Aliens and Starship troopers will be the norm, however it'll take at least a century at current social development.

It's been more than 4 centuries for the segregation of women from combat. In ancient times, there were women warriors, but they were NOT the norm.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Ranger School is not an infantry school, though infantry tactics and training are the vehicle by which learning is acquired. Ranger School is a leadership school. What happens in Ranger School and what happens in the Ranger Regiment are very, very different. There is a certain logic to having women be tabbed [wear the Ranger tab above their unit patch, signifying graduation from Ranger school] if they are going to be in leadership positions and they are competing for promotion with men who can be expected to be tabbed. If the male leaders in a given MOS generally are not tabbed, then there is no compelling reason to open the school to women from that MOS. In other words, if male artillery crews and MPs are attending Ranger School, then it's hard to justify keeping the women out.

I'm still not ready to see women in tank crews and infantry squads. Call me old fashioned. The shenanigans caused by having women in any unit can add up to real problems. Men in their late teens have enough maturity challenges without adding more. While this might be tolerable in combat support and combat service support units, I cringe to think of the effect on the infantry and tankers. I say this as a man who served in MI for three years in a variety of positions, mostly under female supervisors.

Agree here.. I too am 'old fashioned'. I was in the service when they transitioned the WAC to the regulars.. what a CF that was. The MP is as close to combat a woman should get IMO. Afterall the MPs are nothing more than lightly armed infantry. The Military Police (Guard) company I was in WAS an infantry unit without more than three M-60 and nine M203 and NO other heavy weapons. I got tired REAL fast of the "I can't" attitude of many of the female troops assigned... My deal was do it or go home. Same as I had for the males...

[Panther Al]

When it comes to women in combat, I have a different point of view. When I was a kid, one of the teachers I had served in an armoured unit in the IDF: She was female. So I never got the females can't do combat thing ingrained into me like a lot do by modern society.. its given me a open mindset to it. While I don't disagree that it can be a problem (Mainly because of rules that say females don't have to test out to the same standards as males) I do think it can be done.

For instance: Caracal Battalion of the IDF. This is an infantry unit, made up of 70% female soldiers, who have to meet the exact same standards as anyone else: including volunteering to serve three years instead of two that females normally require when they are drafted.

[Webstral]

I would support a pilot program. Let's try it under controlled circumstances and see how it works out. I'm ready to have my misgivings proved unfounded. I'm not ready to make a wholesale change and then see if we got lucky.

[weswood]

When I was in the reserves, I was in the HQ Co for an infantry battalion, we had some Woman Marines. When we went to the field is was a big cluster of "I can't do it".

Having said that, I have no problem with women in infantry units as long as they have the same physical tests and training. Which is messed up cause I wasn't infantry, so maybe I should just shut up. Or maybe just not post this. But then I put a lot of work into typing it and correcting the typo's and I would hate to have all that work go to waste.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

For instance: Caracal Battalion of the IDF. This is an infantry unit, made up of 70% female soldiers, who have to meet the exact same standards as anyone else: including volunteering to serve three years instead of two that females normally require when they are drafted.

Cool. I thought I knew the IDF pretty well but I'd never heard of this unit. Thanks for posting this.

[Panther Al]

No worries: Ex was a member - about the only reason I know of it.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

I will concur that Ms. Alba represents the final step in perfection of the human genome. I wonder how she'd fare in Ranger school?

You take Jessica Alba. I'll take a badass woman with a bit of a soft side like Angelina Jolie as Emma Salt in the movie Salt. Emma Salt could probably manage Ranger School, Q-Course, SERE, and BUDS.

[Legbreaker]

Angelina's ok, but she lacks taste.
Seriously, Brad??? What's THAT all about?