Battle of Kalisz

[Mahatatain]

What follows may be a dumb questions so my apologies in advance if it is! It’s nearly 20 years since I ran any part of the Escape from Kalisz scenario and I’m now wondering if I made some tweaks to the units present when I ran it all that time ago (I certainly didn’t have the NATO vehicle guide at the time).

Essentially I’ve been re-reading the Escape from Kalisz scenario that comes with the v1.0 box set (well technically quickly scan reading it at the moment) and I was wondering if there were any non US troops on the NATO side who were serving with/alongside the 5th ID during the Battle of Kalisz? I don’t mean just individual guides or translators or stragglers who have been incorporated into American units – I’m mean actual units, probably of British, German or Canadian origin.

When I ran the scenario previously my PCs were a mix of Americans and British but I’m now wondering whether I had stretched things in allowing a number of British characters.

Also if there were non US units at the Battle of Kalisz does anyone have details of them?

Thanks,

Mahatatain.

[M-Type]

I wouldn't know about full 'foreign' units per see, but I know the rules talk about how many units are conscripting locals for their forces. Your British players could simply be ones whose unit was destroyed (or whatever), and the 5th ID picked them up. If they can fight I'd say they're valuable.

The first game I ran had a unit with a mixed nationality group. It adds a certain level of disbelief, but its fun overall.

[Legbreaker]

There is no such thing as a dumb question, unless it remains unasked.

A brief reference exists in the background material towards the presence of some Polish guides, but no mention of numbers or organisation (may have been just half a dozen local civilians for all we know).
Other than that, it was a solely American show with regards to the 5th ID (ignoring the previously mentioned stragglers, etc).

Nearest other formal unit of another nationality (besides enemy) would be the Canadians, followed by either the Germans or British way back on the Polish border.

IMO, non-US troops within the 5th ID may have been grouped together to ease language, cultural, and doctrinal issues (there's significant difference between the way a US infantry platoon operates compared to British). Logistically it makes sense to group them together as well given their base issue of gear and weaponry (M16s are just a bit different to G3/G11/L85/L1A1s for example).

[Mahatatain]

Thanks for the info. I will have to see what Nationalities my players want to play before deciding on if/how I need to tweak the NATO units who are present at Battle of Kalisz.

[Legbreaker]

Individuals shouldn't be a problem at all. The US 2nd Marines have 7 different nationalities in their ranks by the time of "Going Home" - that's more than there are NATO countries in theatre.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Individuals shouldn't be a problem at all. The US 2nd Marines have 7 different nationalities in their ranks by the time of "Going Home" - that's more than there are NATO countries in theatre.

Where is that piece of info about the US 2nd Marines from? Is it actually in Going Home?

[Legbreaker]

Yes, page 13.

[Adm.Lee]

The 5th Mech was in the XI US Corps, which also had a Canadian brigade and the Danish division as subordinate units. You could have some of them get swept up when the 5th cuts loose from its base. I think I remember using that to justify a Danish NPC with one of my groups.

EDIT: but yeah, see what your players want. I've had wildly polyglot groups before, and probably will again. I just invoke the "foreign volunteers/stragglers" concept.

[B.T.]

Mahatatain, you were not asking for this kind of advice, but here's my thought on foreign troops:
One logical assumption is, what Adm.Lee said.
And still another: smaller groups of foreign units could be on long range recce patrols. The presence of a squad (or understregth platoon) from the British, Canadian, Danish, or German Army could be justified. It might even be used to introduce some kind of subplot to your story.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by B.T.

Mahatatain, you were not asking for this kind of advice, but here's my thought on foreign troops:
One logical assumption is, what Adm.Lee said.
And still another: smaller groups of foreign units could be on long range recce patrols. The presence of a squad (or understregth platoon) from the British, Canadian, Danish, or German Army could be justified. It might even be used to introduce some kind of subplot to your story.

Many, many years ago I played in a campaign where the PC's were a small German unit sent to try and beat everyone else (including the Americans) to Operation RESET.

[Badbru]

Mahatatain, before you run Escape from Kalisz I highly recommend searching for and reading NoCarriers analysis and minor updates to it, posted here several years ago, circa 2009? I think.

[B.T.]

Badbru, can you remember the correct title of the thread?
I've searched "NoCarrier" - no such member. And the only post I've found, was your above posting


Edit: Oh, I found it:
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...pe+from+Kalisz

[Legbreaker]

That particular thread, while interesting, really only deals with a few organisational details which as discussed at the time, would really only be useful if PCs were staying in the area (and risk almost certain discovery and capture) or those looking at the events leading to the overrun of 5th ID.
For anyone thinking of running a game based on the books, especially one that begins around June-September 2000 in Poland, these threads are all worth a read.
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=354
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2706
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=1438
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=826
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2479

[Mahatatain]

Thanks for the suggestions on how to introduce non-US NATO troops in a group of PCs starting with the Battle of Kalisz - some very good ones there that add to a number of ideas I've had myself. One question though:

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

The 5th Mech was in the XI US Corps, which also had a Canadian brigade and the Danish division as subordinate units. You could have some of them get swept up when the 5th cuts loose from its base. I think I remember using that to justify a Danish NPC with one of my groups.

Does anyone have details of this Canadian Brigade and Danish Division?

------------------------------------------------

Thanks as well for all the links about the actual battle - I will have a read through them all, though at first glance a couple of them are more related to the situation in northern Poland - I'm going to start my PCs south (ish) of Kalisz and push them further south towards Krakow.

[Legbreaker]

They're in the 1st ed NATO Vehicle Guide. Note the figures are as of 01JUL00.

Jutland Mechanised Division (Danish)
The division was brought up to full strength during the general Danish mobilisation on 10 October 1996. When the US, Canada, and Britain became involved in the fighting in East Germany, the Danish Government ordered the Jutland Division to stay within its own borders. After Soviet airstrikes hit several Danish ports in February 1997, Denmark declared war on the Soviet Union.
The Jutland Division was ordered into the field and came under the command of I German Corps. It performed well during the NATO offensive in the spring of 1997. In November of 1999, it was transferred to III German Corps and took part in the offensive into northern Poland in the summer of 2000.
The division has since withdrawn to Denmark.
Subordination: Technically subordinate to III German Corps
Current Location: Denmark
Manpower: 2000

Consists of:
1st Jutland Mechanised Brigade
1st Pr. Life Mechanised Battalion
2nd Pr. Life Mechanised Battalion (Reserve)
5th Pr. Life Infantry Battalion (reserve)
1st Jutland Dragoons
6th North Jutland Artillery Battalion
2nd Jutland Mechanised Brigade
1st Queens Life Mechanised Battalion
2nd Queens Life Mechanised Battalion (reserve)
3rd Queens Life Infantry Battalion (reserve)
2nd Jutland Dragoons
3rd North Jutland Artillery Battalion
3rd Jutland Mechanised Brigade
1st Kings Life Mechanised Battalion
1st Funen Life Mechanised Battalion (Reserve)
4th Queens Life Infantry Battalion (reserve)
3rd Jutland Dragoons
7th South jutland Artillery Battalion
Jutland Division Support Command
14th Air Defence Artillery Battalion
23rd Artillery Battalion
24th Artillery Battalion

Armoured Battalion
HQ and HQ/Support Coy
5 M113
2 M577 TOCs (Staff)
2 M901s (AT Platoon)
Two tank companies, each with:
11 MBTs
2 M113s
Armoured Infantry Coy
11 M113s
2 M113 SP 120mm Mortars
2 M901s
3 Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifles
Motorised Infantry Coy
3 81mm Mortars
3 Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifles
2 Jeeps w/106mm Recoilless Rifles

Mechanised Infantry Battalion Tanks either Leopard I or Leopard II
HQ and HQ/Support Coy
5 M113s
2 M577 TOCs (Staff)
4 M113 SP 120mm Mortars
2 Jeeps w/TOW (AT Platoon)
Two Armoured Infantry Coys, each with:
11 M113s
2 M113 SP 120mm Mortars
2 M901s
3 Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifles
Tank Coy
11 MBTs
2 M113s
Motorised Infantry Coy
3 81mm Mortars
2 Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifles
2 Jeeps w/106mm Recoilless Rifles

Motorised Infantry Battalion
HQ and HQ/Support Coy
4 Jeeps w/106mm Recoilless Rifles
4 120mm Mortars (towed)
Four Motorised Infantry Coys, each with:
3 81mm Mortars
3 Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifles
2 Jeeps w/106mm Recoilless Rifles

Artillery Battalion (Mechanised Brigade)
HQ Battery
4 M577 TOCs (Staff)
4 M113s (Forward Observers)
Air Defence Battery
4 Stinger Teams
6 Towed 40mm AAA Guns
Two Howitzer Batteries, each with:
6 M109A2 SP 155mm Howitzers


4th Mechanised Brigade (Canadian)
A prewar unit stationed in West Germany, the 4th MB crossed the inter-German border on 9 December 1996 and engaged Soviet forces on 12 December 1996. Throughout most of 1997, the 4th MB operated under the command of V US Corps. In January 1998, the brigade was reassigned to XI US Corps. In the Spring of 2000, the brigade took part in the corps drive into northern Poland. The brigade is currently in winter cantonments in and around the city of Karlino, Poland.
Subordination: XI US Corps
Current Location: Karlino, Poland
Manpower: 1000
Tanks: 6

4th Mechanised Brigade
1/Royal 22e Regiment
2/Royal 22e Regiment
1/British Columbia Regiment (A)
1/Canadian Airborne Regiment

Mechanised Battalion
HQ and HQ Coy
2 M2 Bradley IFVs
2 M577 TOCs (Staff)
2 M113 Light Armoured Recovery Vehicles
Support Coy
4 M113s
7 Lynxs (Recon Platoon)
8 M125 SP 81mm Mortars (Mortar Platoon)
8 M901 ITVs (AT Platoon)
Four Mechanised Infantry Coys, each with:
16 M113s
9 Tankbreaker ATGMs (1 per squad)

Tank Battalion
HQ and HQ Squadron
2 Leopard C1 MBTs
2 M577 TOCs (Staff)
2 M113s
3 Tankbreaker ATGMs
Recon Squadron
24 Lynxs
21 Tankbreaker ATGMs
Three Armoured Squadrons, each with:
1 M577 TOC
13 Leopard C1 MBTs

Light Armoured Battalion
HQ and HQ Coy
2 M577 TOCs (Staff)
2 M113s
Three Light Armoured Compaines, each with:
24 LAV-25s
4 LAV/81mm Mortars
4 MPGS 90s
Aerial Recce Squadron
11 Lynx Helicopters

Infantry Battalion
HQ and HQ Coy
7 Lynxs (Recon Platoon)
Mechanised Infantry Coy
16 M113s
9 Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifles
Three Motorised Infantry Coys, each with:
11 LAV-25s
3 Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifles
Support Coy
2 LAV-25s
8 LAV/AAs w/TOW II
8 LAV/81mm Mortars

Artillery Regiment
HQ and HQ/Support Battery
4 M577 TOCs (Staff)
8 M113 FIST-Vs (Forward Observer Platoon)
8 M548 Ammo Tractors
Three Firing Batteries, each with:
6 M109A2 SP 155mms, or 6 Towed 105mm Howitzers and Tractors

[Mahatatain]

Legbreaker - Thanks for this info.