I wish someone would do a T2k sandbox computer RPG

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Not an MMO; MMOs are dick-farms.

No, I wish we could get a straight-up, get from Poland to Germany before x days thing spanning a huge playable area. Sure you'd need to have multiple zones, but given what games can accomplish these days, why not?

Nobody's going to make such a best, but it would be amazing if it got done. I think it'd really work well, an alternate cold-war future, slightly different vehicles and weapons...the character starts out Military but can change alliances or go rogue entirely.

The possibilities are endless. (Yes I'm aware Paragon Software did do a computer T2k back years ago)

[Legbreaker]

You're right, it would be great, but nobody is going to do it, at least not in the format we here would like to see.
The days of the cold war are over by a generation or more, nobody really cares any more about what could have happened. Any games made these days will be all about more current events like Iraq or Afghanistan, or some made up country which looks a lot like those sorts of situations and where the good guys (aka the western world) always comes out on top without having to resort to nukes, chemical weapons and massive worldwide depopulation.

The tech certainly exists to do a great T2K game (or similar scenario), but who'd play it? More to the point, who besides us archaic fanatics would spend the money and buy it?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

You're right, it would be great, but nobody is going to do it, at least not in the format we here would like to see.
The days of the cold war are over by a generation or more, nobody really cares any more about what could have happened. Any games made these days will be all about more current events like Iraq or Afghanistan, or some made up country which looks a lot like those sorts of situations and where the good guys (aka the western world) always comes out on top without having to resort to nukes, chemical weapons and massive worldwide depopulation.

The tech certainly exists to do a great T2K game (or similar scenario), but who'd play it? More to the point, who besides us archaic fanatics would spend the money and buy it?

Well, computer (and console) gamers like to game; I don't think there'd be much looking at the actual scenario so much as the gameplay. I mean, consider the almost-but-not-quite-T2k setting of Fallout, one of the most beloved franchises in computer gaming. You had what, two or three isometric perspective RPGs and then on top of that you had the first-person shooter. Those games' backstory was rooted firmly in a 1950s style "Duck and Cover" era of A-Bomb blithe ignorance, yet they were warmly received. A T2k with good, accessible gameplay would be equally embraced, too. Wasn't one of the recent Medal of Honor games set in the Cold War?

Anyway, I'm a little rusty on my C## oh and a couple hundred devs, a few thousand QA folks and $50m to make it happen, so... :P

[M-Type]

I'm actually going to school exactly for this (Major: Game Design and Development, yes it's a major), and I would agree that'd it be a great and fun game, but there'd be A LOT of work to be put into it from a Dev stand-point, especially for what raket suggested. And like Leg was mentioning, the supply probably won't be meeting the demand so to speak.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Given what you'd be doing (starting a new franchise based on a little-remembered pen-and-paper RPG that was written and based around now-known-to-be-false assumptions about the Cold War) and the resources it would require, the only two routes you could hope to go would be:

Develop it solely as an online team shooter, at which point (in my opinion) you might as well just play 8-player DOOM. Six months after launch anyone serious about it will have ditched it.

Develop it solely as an MMO...and all the baggage that goes with that.

Develop it on the side as a fans-only project, which means it will at the very best sit in alpha forever, never being released. A few blotchy youtube videos and a "playable when console commands are invoked to make things work" will wind up as the only thing(s) that exist.

[stg58fal]

Get Fallout 3 on pc. Download the GECK (Garden of eden creation Kit) from Bethesda. Learn how to use the GECK, and make that which you seek. Yes, it would be a lot of work. Basically a total replacement of the quests, textures, maps, and NPCs, but it could be done.

It'd take someone a lot more skilled with the GECK than me, however. I can do some things, just not an entire re-write. Mostly things like locations, quests, and NPCs. No meshes, textures, or animations.

The good news is, there are a *LOT* of Mods already made that you could either incorporate directly or borrow elements from. All you'd need to do is ask the mod creator if you could use it, and not be doing this for profit or commercial use. And finding directions on how to do the modding is pretty easy, too.

I say Fallout 3 and not Fallout: New Vegas because IMO Fallout 3 is much, much better. Mods turned Fallout 3 from a great game to a truly outstanding game. OTOH, Mods made Vegas basically playable. I also hate Steam and won't advocate anyone using (paying for) anything that requires Steam.

If anyone decides to mod Fallout, whether for a T2k game or just to have more fun with Fallout, go to the Fallout 3 Nexus. All kinds of great files. I especially recommend Fallout Wanderer's Edition, 19th & 20th Century Weapons, and Mart's Mutant Mod. *I didn't write those mods, nor do I know the authors or have any kind of special interest in them other than the fact that theyre some of my personal favorites.*

[StainlessSteelCynic]

This is the big problem of computer/console games now, the story or genre of the game doesn't matter as much as the way it's all executed. Sandbox games can and do work but the execs who give out the money don't believe the public wants them.

The latest thinking is that everyone wants to play a multiplayer online first person shooter that is player-vs-player, linear and has lots of cinematic cut-scenes. They forget that games like Sacred and Sacred 2, Fallout 3, Skyrim and so on have been very succesful. It also, surprise surprise, turns out to be cheaper to make player-vs-player games because you don't have to develop as much content.

You could make a Cold War game tomorrow, give it some advertising and it will definitely sell but then you encounter the second problem of computer gaming. "Every" computer gamer thinks that they should play every single game that comes onto the market irrespective of whether it's to their tastes or not. When it turns out they don't like the game because it isn't in a genre they like, they're the first onto the internet to bitch about it. If you were a car racing fan who liked drag races and not the Indy 500, you just wouldn't bother to go to the Indy 500 - not so with computer gamers :-(

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Talking to one of the guys I work with, he suggested that if you want a computer game close to Twilight: 2000, you should look at ARMA 2 with something like the Cold War Rearmed 2 mod http://cwr.armedzone.com/
or the Project 1985 mod http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Project_1985

[James Langham]

Cold War games CAN work, consider CoD: Black Ops (although few people play the single player storyline).

As for a TW2000 one, I think it's unlikely to work as the setting is just too dark if done properly.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Fallout type games could work for a T2k universe. I think t2k would have too small of a group of buyers but a game that was t2k in spirit might get lots of interest.

I'd be okay with simple 8bit graphics if the story was good. Small development shops like Spiderware who made Geneforge could make a great T2k game in my opinion.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl has a LOT of T2k-ish elements in it. I mean, bunches and bunches, but also of course Roadside Picnic (if you've never read this book, go find it and read it NOW) and some SFish weapons thrown in (man-portable railguns for example).

Basically if you tossed out the "anomalies" (energy fields that can kill you) and the mutants (malformed humanoids and animals that can mess you up good), then threw in a slew of NATO weapons and changed the objectives around a bit, added some western NPCs, you'd basically have it entirely.

There's even areas of dangerous fallout!

FWIW, I sat down with the "Hammer" editor for Valve Software's excellent "Source" engine to see what could be done with it. There are a ton of free weapon model resources, as well as vehicles and so on, plus AI scripting is a snap in Hammer. However, I was disappointed to find that the largest a map can be is 2048 feet on a side - less than a kilometer . Now, a 2048x2048x2048 building full of halls and rooms, or a cleverly "culled" city block with many buildings in it of those dimensions would be titanic-seeming. However, outdoors? In a vehicle? Yeah, not so much. Pity. Apparently, that's hard-coded into the engine too.

[M-Type]

I have STALKER: Call of Pripyat, and it Kicks. My. Ass.

On the higher difficulties anyways, but it's still an intense game. I could definitely see it being mixed around into a T2k mod or something. I know someone made a mod for vehicles too...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by M-Type

I have STALKER: Call of Pripyat, and it Kicks. My. Ass.

On the higher difficulties anyways, but it's still an intense game. I could definitely see it being mixed around into a T2k mod or something. I know someone made a mod for vehicles too...

Although it doesn't include vehicles you simply MUST use STALKER: Complete on that bad boy.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

Although it doesn't include vehicles you simply MUST use STALKER: Complete on that bad boy.

Once you've played through STALKER Shadow of Chernobyl (AKA SoC) then you should play it again with the Oblivion Lost mod installed.
It reinstates the vehicle use and adds some other items that were literally switched off in the SoC release such as random Blowouts.

[Targan]

Great thread, this one. I agree that ARMA 2 does NATO vs WarPac combat really well (especially with the right mods) and I'm also a huge fan of Fallout 3 and FO New Vegas (I absolutely saturated both with mods). I had no idea that mods had been created for the Stalker games, but now that I do (thanks to raketenjagdpanzer and Stainless) I'm going to go and look up those mods and replay SoC and Call of Pripyat. Yay!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Targan

Great thread, this one. I agree that ARMA 2 does NATO vs WarPac combat really well (especially with the right mods) and I'm also a huge fan of Fallout 3 and FO New Vegas (I absolutely saturated both with mods). I had no idea that mods had been created for the Stalker games, but now that I do (thanks to raketenjagdpanzer and Stainless) I'm going to go and look up those mods and replay SoC and Call of Pripyat. Yay!

STALKER SoC with the Oblivion Lost mod is my favourite computer game for the last decade. Plain vanilla SoC is damned good but for me Oblivion Lost makes it great. There's still a point where you have plenty of cash and it's not so difficult in the survival sense but there's a lot of random occurrences that can surprise the hell out of you: -

-- Use Left Mouse Button to highlight the area under the spoiler notice --
** Little Spoiler Alert **
Freedom soldiers can and do attack the Duty soldiers in the Bar/Rostock area

** Big Spoiler Alert **
Controllers can sometimes attack the Freedom base at the Army Barracks

[M-Type]

I always loved CoP and the STALKER games in general because of the great AI. One mission in CoP has you sneaking around a den of bloodsuckers. After the mission, I headed back to the Stalker ship base whose name escapes me, and spotted someone following me. I hid behind a rock and took a peek.

It was a bloodsucker who wasn't even invisible, just walking along towards a small camp of raiders/stalkers.

I couldn't save them.

I paused the game and sat back for a second. I figured that the bloodsucker had followed me back from the nest, and had instinctively attacked those guys because hell, bloodsuckers will be bloodsuckers. Then I realized it was MY FAULT they were dead now. I felt a tang of guilt. Not a lot of games can do that.

EDIT: Still looted them though. Survival of the fittest :P

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Targan

Great thread, this one. I agree that ARMA 2 does NATO vs WarPac combat really well (especially with the right mods) and I'm also a huge fan of Fallout 3 and FO New Vegas (I absolutely saturated both with mods). I had no idea that mods had been created for the Stalker games, but now that I do (thanks to raketenjagdpanzer and Stainless) I'm going to go and look up those mods and replay SoC and Call of Pripyat. Yay!

SoC basically "ends", regardless of what ending you make of it, so I don't regard vanilla SoC as a true sandbox. STALKER Complete redefines how the game works. Unfortunately, even with the Complete mod, the game becoming a true sandbox eventually leaves it kind of hollow: once you've beaten all the missions, there's really not much else to do except ramp up money (for no reason). Kill off all of the Monolith Cult at the NPP (and in the creepy "shelter areas" underneath) and the whole NPP becomes just a big hole in the ground. Sure, it'll take a few runs if you've got OCD about cleaning out an entire area of any and all salable goods (artifacts, weapons, dropped 'gear from dead people) (and I am), but ultimately, it's just a great big radioactive playground after that.



<spoiler>

You know how in vanilla STALKER, if you fall off a building or gantry outside at the NPP, once you're behind it fighting the Monolith guys, you get this red flash on your HUD like you're taking psychic damage and it injures you pretty badly every "flash" until you die? Complete removes that; you're free to explore the entire area. It's basically a big red herring: the sinister looking "energy ripples" aren't anomalies, and with the exception of the Sarcophagus area, there's no radiation, either, so it's basically just a movie set at that point. It has its own creepy poignancy, given some historical perspective, but it's just this vast expanse of an industrial graveyard that's about as dangerous or mysterious as your living room.

I wonder if it's different with Oblivion Lost...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

From memory, I think the back of the CPP is pretty much the same with Oblivion Lost. I think STALKER Complete incorporates elements of Oblivion Lost or maybe it's the other way around (just can't remember) so for someone like Targan - check out both of them and see which one appeals the most, then install that one!

The saddest part of the endgame is that the area behind the CPP was meant to be an area for missions/to explore but with the developers always falling behind schedule, they cut a lot of things to actually make a release date.
The original Cordon map was supposed to be about half as big again as what we got for example and there was also supposed to be a section of forest that you had to traverse from Dark Valley back to Cordon.

[Targan]

I've decided to install and play SoC Complete instead of Oblivion Lost (although it pained me to make that decision). I really do want to try out vehicle use but I doubt I'd stick with the game for very long if it still looked and played like it did when it came out in 2007.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Targan

I've decided to install and play SoC Complete instead of Oblivion Lost (although it pained me to make that decision). I really do want to try out vehicle use but I doubt I'd stick with the game for very long if it still looked and played like it did when it came out in 2007.

The play area is so small that adding back vehicles really doesn't do much at all. They probably cut vehicles when they cut down the map sizes. No need for a working car when it's less than a km between zones. :P

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

The saddest part of the endgame is that the area behind the CPP was meant to be an area for missions/to explore but with the developers always falling behind schedule, they cut a lot of things to actually make a release date.

That IS a heartbreaker. BTW, there are lots of Artifacts around the front of the plant; Complete removes the timed blowouts and gives you ample time to explore once you've killed off the Monolith cultists and the military assaulting them. They REALLY didn't want you to see much out there, did they? Like the CP for the military operation - complete with an Asus branded laptop, a few random guns and other equipment lying around directly across from the big door that opens into the "garage" where the sarcophagus entrance is. I'm sure you know what I mean.

But playing the game without any mods means you'll never, ever see those areas with the massive blowouts that happen once you enter the NPP zone.

The original Cordon map was supposed to be about half as big again as what we got for example and there was also supposed to be a section of forest that you had to traverse from Dark Valley back to Cordon.

That's just depressing, knowing it's not there anymore.

Speaking of incomplete things, in the Brain Scorcher lab up near the NPP, there's a couple of locked doors that there are no codes for that were meant to open into more areas to explore, and also the big pipeline area just down the street from the area where you enter Pripyat, if you climb up that long monorail-looking thing there's another pair of coded locked doors; I found the code for one somewhere on-line, it opens into a couple of rooms filled with broken down electronic gear; there's another door that clearly was supposed to open into the interior of the monorail-line looking corridor that runs the length of that part of Red Forest, but there's no code to open the door, and as far as I know in vanilla SoC, you can't use the weapon drop trick to open the door, either

SO much potentially cool stuff we'll never see now. The mod communities for SoC have pretty much moved on to other games.

[Cdnwolf]

And back to the original topic....