Had a interesting chat...

[Panther Al]

... over the weekend with a friend that works for one of the think-tanks specialising in defence matters in DC.

He does the 40K thing and while we was chatting in the FLGS, the subject of TW2K came up. He mentioned he heard of it, but never looked too seriously at it. So, this weekend, I brought my stuff, and over donuts and laptops, we went over the game and the background to it (This is V2.2 btw). Over a few hours he came to an interesting conclusion:

The way the Nukes was spread out over NA he called the true nightmare spread. All our planning for nuclear war worked on two assumptions:

Either there would be very limited (As in Sub/SAC bases, Primary Shipping Points, as well as DC and equivalent) targeting, or there would be massive wipe everything out bombardment.

By cherry picking a few of this, and few of that, it threw out all the planning. No one really assumed cities like Boston and New York would be anything but a large crater - not to mention Norfolk and other very large cities.

By not destroying them, while wrecking infrastructure targets (He counts Oil Production/Refinery facilities as basic infrastructure) it would put so much pressure on relief efforts there would be next to no chance to pull it off, without the destruction of the units trying to pull it off for any number of reasons.

This makes the idea of the total fragmentation of Civil Authority much more believable now in my mind.

He also laughed at a few other things: the less said about the concept of the Mexicans heading north the better, but he really laughed at the idea of Colorado Springs even existing after the strikes on Norad: and since we game in Frederick MD, the idea of a strike on Detrick allowing anyone to head up into Penn State via I70 is laughable.

He allows that the designers really had no idea of what nukes could do, and with the dirth of resources, he figures it was excusable to assume nukes wouldn't be as destructive as they should have been.


But it gives an interesting POV on things none the less.

[Webstral]

It sounds like an interesting talk, sure enough. Thanks for sharing!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

That's fascinating. It makes the "Jericho" scenario look a lot more frightening.

For those who may have missed it, Jericho was a sadly short-lived TV series in the US wherein 23 twenty-five kiloton nuclear weapons, tagged for orderly disposal were shipped in secret into 25 major US cities: here is a comprehensive list of target cities, plus two that survived. The bomb intended for NYC was intercepted before detonation, and the bomb intended for Columbus, OH, was stolen by a CIA loyalist who kept it as evidence of the conspiracy to destroy the US. The whole plot was started by a private security firm whose CEO would step in to fill the power vacuum plus suppress any dissident groups under the banner of patriotism, thus rebuilding the US as the perfect police state (ala V for Vendetta).

But the point is, the meta-plot of using the bombs to break the country into disconnected, chaotic regions came from the security contracting company's studies (at the behest of the government) in the 1990s of just exactly what would happen to the US in the event of a very limited, surgical nuclear attack, one that was neither counterforce nor counter-value. Once the company (Jennings & Rall / Ravenwood) realized what they could do by gutting the emergency response system with the 23 bomb attacks, they infiltrated an operation titled "Red Bell" which was initiated to acquire, by any means necessary, nuclear weapons from ex-Soviet client states to keep said weapons out of the hands of foreign terrorist groups. Unfortunately, the J&R group set up sleeper cells in the CIA to route the bombs into the hands of domestic terror groups, tying them together in an unaffiliated but coordinated network, triggering the bombs simultaneously across the US. Chilling stuff.

[TrailerParkJawa]

It certainly sounds like an interesting chat. I'm not sure if this has been brought up before but I do believe the GDW staff got the idea or at least source material from a study done in 1979. One attack scenario studied was a 10 missile attack on US refineries. I have the book someplace in the garage.

It was commission by the govt. A link to the PDF is here, look at attack scenario II.

http://www.nuclearpathways.org/Docs/pdfs/7906.pdf

This a must read for any fan.


As for Jericho I think the real killer of American society was the EMP blast 2-3 episodes into the series. Once that was done, assuming it was nation wide, recovery is an unlikely event and new nations rise from the ashes.

[manunancy]

One comment about Colorado Springs - If you consider the use of some sort of ground-penetrating anti-bunker nuke it makes more sense as th worst effects will be contained underground.

Developping a one-of-kind deep strike nuke to nail a high value target like the NORAD rather than just tossing a heavy hitter is a possibility too - more expensive thatn repurposing a city-leveller but it can get handy for others hard targetswher you're at leéast cosmewhat concerned with the collateral damage (to the troops you might send there if not to the locals).

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by manunancy

One comment about Colorado Springs - If you consider the use of some sort of ground-penetrating anti-bunker nuke it makes more sense as th worst effects will be contained underground.

Developping a one-of-kind deep strike nuke to nail a high value target like the NORAD rather than just tossing a heavy hitter is a possibility too - more expensive thatn repurposing a city-leveller but it can get handy for others hard targetswher you're at leéast cosmewhat concerned with the collateral damage (to the troops you might send there if not to the locals).

Remember the Soviets tested a 50 MT that would devistate a LARGE area. I think the *Mountain of Doom* would be in a world of hurt, as would the surrounding area. However I wonder IF they had one, and IF the could deliver it with any degree of accuracy. The mountain would survive a near miss I think. They are several thousand feet under a granit mountain!

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by TrailerParkJawa

It certainly sounds like an interesting chat. I'm not sure if this has been brought up before but I do believe the GDW staff got the idea or at least source material from a study done in 1979. One attack scenario studied was a 10 missile attack on US refineries. I have the book someplace in the garage.

It was commission by the govt. A link to the PDF is here, look at attack scenario II.

http://www.nuclearpathways.org/Docs/pdfs/7906.pdf

This a must read for any fan.


As for Jericho I think the real killer of American society was the EMP blast 2-3 episodes into the series. Once that was done, assuming it was nation wide, recovery is an unlikely event and new nations rise from the ashes.

Wish I could get it to download. But will keep trying.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

Wish I could get it to download. But will keep trying.

Any luck? I can try to post it on the thread

[Ironside]

I downloaded it OK using Firefox 13.0.1 and PDFLite.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Ironside

I downloaded it OK using Firefox 13.0.1 and PDFLite.

My Windows machine and IE choked on the download. Could be my commo link?

IF possible, please post for all to read.

My $0.02

Mike

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

Windows machine and IE...

Well there's yer problem...

[TrailerParkJawa]

I can't upload it for some reason. I'm assuming its because the PDF is 3 megs? Anyone know?

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by TrailerParkJawa

Any luck? I can try to post it on the thread

No luck yet. grumble grumble

[stg58fal]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Well there's yer problem...

This.

[Graebarde]

Got it downloaded from FAS after google the title.. PDF one chapter/appendix at a time. More than one way to skin a cat.. THEN I realized I had already saved it long ago on my flash drive... go figure.

[pmulcahy11b]

Downloaded using Firefox 13 and a 20Mbps connection...took about three seconds to download it

[TrailerParkJawa]

What do guys think about the scenarios? The attack on the refinery seems to be classic T2k.