T2K13 - Keep it civil :D

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by chico20854

The 2013 timeline, which I have not yet read beyond the teasers that have appeared over the last few years, has a number of fantasy elements in it.

I hope this comes across well as I'm not going to intend this as any attack against anyone in particular. But of the timeline only a small fraction (maybe less the 5%) has been posted. The timeline of 2013 is over 50k words and 60 pages at 9pt font. It covers almost every country in the world at some point. Judging the timeline based on 5% of material (all of which have been altered since its initial posting) is not really giving it a chance.

All I would ask is that people give it a read at least. I'm not asking people to drink the kool-aid. Hell, my own playtesters don't agree with everything I've written, its ok, you won't hurt my feelings. However, its really hard to a good debate against people who admit they've never even read it. I really want to talk about the story, I mean a real intelligent, fun debate over the little intrinsic ideas I put in there.

Are there leaps? Yes there are. Are there some really cool ideas? I'd like to think so. Can it take some improvements? Oddly, I actually wrote it in such as way that things can be added to make adjustments or improvements without causing any issues. It's things like that I'd love to talk about. So let's have fun. Let's talk. Here's a chance to bring a completely fresh outlook on Twilight. Let's us it.

[Tegyrius]

(Edited because it's too damned late and I was reading the wrong draft.)

Okay, Boss, I'll get the ball rolling. One of the things Spoe mentioned in another thread was an early draft idea that you abandoned in the final copy: the Chinese forces roaming California and causing trouble for all. The final incarnation is not a heavy sealift invasion, but more of an infiltration of SOFs in the manner reportedly planned by Spetznaz. Now, I can agree with some of the criticisms there, given - even on the Left Coast - the large number of armed citizens who would be enthusiastically taking the opportunity to form up local militias.

However, here's a nasty permutation. Might I suggest a return to the old idea we kicked around in the world destruction conference regarding a few charismatic leaders polarizing followers and generating effects out of proportion to their personal capabilities? One idea I've been toying with - but a lot more research would be required to see if it'd work - is a Mexican demagogue (possibly with connections to MS-13 et al) stirring up a popular Aztlan nationalist movement in the Southwest that would become an active insurgency after the Collapse. Have the Chinese supporting him for their own reasons and using the Aztlaner forces as diversions for their own sabotage and decapitation work.

- C.

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

However, here's a nasty permutation. Might I suggest a return to the old idea we kicked around in the world destruction conference regarding a few charismatic leaders polarizing followers and generating effects out of proportion to their personal capabilities? One idea I've been toying with - but a lot more research would be required to see if it'd work - is a Mexican demagogue (possibly with connections to MS-13 et al) stirring up a popular Aztlan nationalist movement in the Southwest that would become an active insurgency after the Collapse. Have the Chinese supporting him for their own reasons and using the Aztlaner forces as diversions for their own sabotage and decapitation work.

This would play well into the vague text already written:

"The Mexican military begins a guerrilla war against its occupiers. Hit and run attacks will be a constant presence over the next few months. In mid-2013 the Mexican army is augmented by troops from Honduras, Nicaragua and El Salvador, who see the American incursion as an affront to the whole region. Although the Mexican army does little to oust the American invaders, they manage to cause high casualty rates among the units securing the region."

Building a very charismatic individual here, it would further expand on this. The Hondurans, Nicaraguans and El Salvadorian would be flocking to his leadership.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by smokewolf

This would play well into the vague text already written:

"The Mexican military begins a guerrilla war against its occupiers. Hit and run attacks will be a constant presence over the next few months. In mid-2013 the Mexican army is augmented by troops from Honduras, Nicaragua and El Salvador, who see the American incursion as an affront to the whole region. Although the Mexican army does little to oust the American invaders, they manage to cause high casualty rates among the units securing the region."

Building a very charismatic individual here, it would further expand on this. The Hondurans, Nicaraguans and El Salvadorian would be flocking to his leadership.

Yep. Pre-war, he'd be using the immigration debate as fuel for his fires. The border actions during the Collapse would be the justification he'd need to move from rallies to riots. And the Chinese SOFs would need local help to get through the borders...

- C.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

California, in particular, has a huge problem with gangs in the major cities. The street gangs are organized, and essentially, run by the "shot callers' in the state's prison system.

It would be fairly easy to have semi-organized and lead street gnags run amuck in what's left of major metro areas. "La EME"( "Surenos"), Nuestra Familia ("Nortenos"), BGF (Black Guerrilla Family), OMGs (Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs), MS-13 (the most violent, best trained and organized), and NLR (Nazi Low Riders - OMGs) are just a handfull of the larger state (and sometimes nationwide) criminal gang associations that could be easily bribed with money, supplies, and the promise of power. Not only would they be fighting authority for control but each other. These gangs are well supplied, well lead, and now are beggining to get members with combat experience and training into their ranks.

The Chinesse could easily strike up alliances with a singel or multiple elements and cause a huge headache.

MS-13 was said to have members originally from paramilitary wing of the El Salvadorian military/govt and former guierrillas (MS13 has members from Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salv., and other central american countries). MS-13 has its roots suposedly started in Southern Cali. but not a lot is known/confirmed completely. They were VERY well trainined hit squads. Brutal and efficient. When we encouter a member from MS-13 we EXTREMELY carefull. MS-13 is even more vicious then Laotian, Vietnamesse, and other Asian gangs.

[General Pain]

i guess the gangs would use prisons as hqs ....the prisons are allready used as forts (in a way) and former would probably know it like their back pocket.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by smokewolf

I hope this comes across well as I'm not going to intend this as any attack against anyone in particular. But of the timeline only a small fraction (maybe less the 5%) has been posted. The timeline of 2013 is over 50k words and 60 pages at 9pt font. It covers almost every country in the world at some point. Judging the timeline based on 5% of material (all of which have been altered since its initial posting) is not really giving it a chance.

All I would ask is that people give it a read at least. I'm not asking people to drink the kool-aid. Hell, my own playtesters don't agree with everything I've written, its ok, you won't hurt my feelings. However, its really hard to a good debate against people who admit they've never even read it. I really want to talk about the story, I mean a real intelligent, fun debate over the little intrinsic ideas I put in there.

Are there leaps? Yes there are. Are there some really cool ideas? I'd like to think so. Can it take some improvements? Oddly, I actually wrote it in such as way that things can be added to make adjustments or improvements without causing any issues. It's things like that I'd love to talk about. So let's have fun. Let's talk. Here's a chance to bring a completely fresh outlook on Twilight. Let's us it.

Ok! with that one I only have one question left. When are you making an add-on out of it and when are you saling it (for a tiny price, almost free if that's possible )? I still won't agree with everything, no doubt, but I'm being curious and I love reading good stories. Rules are great and I'll be reading the all of yours but I'm increasingly tired of rules and never follow them anyway. Moreover, I'll stop keeping asking questions and making weird observations; that will save you and me a hell of a time . I know, I know, timelines are personnal and they only suit the one who has done it but, what do you want, I'm craving for other people's points of view. I'm even willing to buy the all story all for myself but I might not be able to keep it secret so forget it.

[kato13]

I think smokewolf is talking about the stuff posted to this group when he mentions the 5%. In the book the time line and country descriptions end around page sixty so I am assuming if you get the book you get it all.

edit: Actually there will probably be more detail in supplements just like T2k did. But I don't think that is what he was talking about.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kato13

I think smokewolf is talking about the stuff posted to this group when he mentions the 5%. In the book the time line and country descriptions end around page sixty so I am assuming if you get the book you get it all.

Possible but I didn't count the countries description follwing the timeline, that might explain my misscalculation (I was down to 25 at most). If that the case, I'll be happy to see them double that size and devellop it a little more as I indeed agree with the fact that there are several good idea in it. I bought the book before posting anything on it.

[smokewolf]

Yes, I'm counting Chapter 1 and 2. What the plan is is to further develop the timeline/backstory with each country's sourcebook and focus solely on the timeline in relation to that country. You'll also see snippets with the fiction pieces.

The first timeline expansion is going to be a US Embassy supplement based in Croatia, which will expand the timeline for Croatia.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by smokewolf

Yes, I'm counting Chapter 1 and 2. What the plan is is to further develop the timeline/backstory with each country's sourcebook and focus solely on the timeline in relation to that country. You'll also see snippets with the fiction pieces.

The first timeline expansion is going to be a US Embassy supplement based in Croatia, which will expand the timeline for Croatia.

Why didn't you say it in the first place? Or may be I overlook that one. That's an interesting approach. Nevertheless, I hope it won't be too costly for the customers.

I have another question, then. Won't you do stuff regions by regions (lets say for exemple lower Balkans: former Yougoslavia, Greece and Bulgaria)? Doing it country by country will be a lot of supplements.

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Why didn't you say it in the first place? Or may be I overlook that one. That's an interesting approach. Nevertheless, I hope it won't be too costly for the customers.

Even if they don't purchase the supplements. It designed with enough vagueness that they should be able to fill in the gaps with what will work for them. Like the staged rules, I'm ok with people added their own material.

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I have another question, then. Won't you do stuff regions by regions (lets say for exemple lower Balkans: former Yougoslavia, Greece and Bulgaria)? Doing it country by country will be a lot of supplements.

I've not decided 100% yet but I'm way leaning to handle it by war, so there will be a Euro-Russo Sourcebook, North American Conflict Sourcebook, etc. Parts will come out though in smaller books as well (but nothing critical). Croatia is its own supplement (mainly because I have it and want to release new material). But the history of the Twilight War does not hinge on Croatia.

[Mohoender]

I guessed that it wasn't going to be limited to Croatia. Vagueness is why I was asking so much. Now that I know why I'm more willing to wait and see. I just fell concern however that you could go from too broad (the previous edition) to too focused. I like the idea of doing it war by war instead of region by region. Make more sense (that's why I put lower Balkans as an exemple, hehehe).

I also hope that you won't forget China and Africa this time. In the next edition they never made anything on Asia while the war started overthere and half the Russian divisions were stationned in Asia. Might have been difficult to get some figures for China at the time but today there is enough around to figure something out. Africa is an other story but It might be very interesting.

By the way, it would be kind to do one on France at some point. I'm not taking it personnal but, after reading you, it feels barren and empty around here.

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

By the way, it would be kind to do one on France at some point. I'm not taking it personnal but, after reading you, it feels barren and empty around here.

At least I didn't put an ad in the back of the book for slightly used French Rifles.

[AcesandEights]

Just downloaded this sucker from RPG Drivethru last night, printed a copy this morning whilst at the office and will start digging into in earnest this evening.

I'm excited! And I hope you guys get a decent percentage from your deal with Drivethru RPG, as I would have liked to do the whole pre-order for the hardcover thing, but it's the holiday season and my belt is officially tightened.

Looking good so far!