You know what I wish had come to pass?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

That someone could've produced some of that "Socialist Realism" style Chinese propaganda artwork showing US and Chinese cooperation during the early stages of WWIII.

That stuff is a hoot, and a painting of brave-looking US soldiers standing side-by-side with the People's Army facing waves of Soviet tanks would be just too cool.

[Targan]

Sounds like a possible commission for Nate

[Legbreaker]

It'd have to be in a WWII propaganda style since the US (or any other nation for that matter) didn't send any actual troops to China.
Photos and "real life" drawings wouldn't work, unless they detailed behind the lines stuff like "a new shipment of hi-tech weapons from China's supporters arriving at the docks" sort of thing.

[Tegyrius]

Not that they'd be on propaganda posters, I'll bet some of the "tech-reps" and "trainers" who accompanied the equipment shipments were observers from 1st (and 19th?) Special Forces Group. China would've been a pretty good opportunity to get a look at Soviet doctrine and equipment in use against American hardware.

- C.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I thought about a group of American Volunteers made up mostly of American born Chinese forming a small unit, say battalion sized, and fighting with the Chinese. Like flying tigers but infantry. However since most don't fluently read or write Chinese or many speak Cantonese instead of Mandarin they end up relegated to duties far from the fighting. Like patrolling the Vietnamese border or convoy duties in SE. china. Still they would make a food poster for propaganda.

[Legbreaker]

I think the US (and others) would be very, very careful about having anyone identify themselves as a foreign (non-Chinese) citizen. It could become very politically uncomfortable if the Soviets were to capture even just one and you just know they'd parade them about and have some very strong words to say about them.
Best if any people who do go to China can be a) kept from the front and/or b) disavowed as a non-Chinese citizen.

Supplying weapons and equipment is one thing. Supplying troops is something else entirely.

[HorseSoldier]

Agreed. The central tenet of the Cold War was that US and Soviet troops didn't face off against each other -- having proxies bashing away, or even having your troops bash away at the other guy's proxies was okay, but that was a line best not to be crossed (or if crossed, done extremely covertly).

[Jason Weiser]

How about glorious American workers at Boeing and Lockheed and Lima Tank Plant handing over equipment to representatives of the equally glorious People's Liberation Army with it saying in Chinese and English "America stands with us again!"

Once things go pearshaped in Europe, the Chinese can be a lot more overt about the AVG and I could see an F-4 in Flying Tigers garb with a ghostly P-40 in the background and the legend "As then, as now. America is China's friend".

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

How about glorious American workers at Boeing and Lockheed and Lima Tank Plant handing over equipment to representatives of the equally glorious People's Liberation Army with it saying in Chinese and English "America stands with us again!"

Once things go pearshaped in Europe, the Chinese can be a lot more overt about the AVG and I could see an F-4 in Flying Tigers garb with a ghostly P-40 in the background and the legend "As then, as now. America is China's friend".

See, that's what I'm talking about. Square jawed American factory workers in distinctly proletariat-looking clothing, hands extended to the east as LAV-75s roll out of tank factories, Deng Xiaopeng and Pres. Tanner looking determined but benevolent, side-by-side on giant wall posters...

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Jason Weiser

Once things go pearshaped in Europe, the Chinese can be a lot more overt about the AVG and I could see an F-20 in Flying Tigers garb with a ghostly P-40 in the background and the legend "As then, as now. America is China's friend".

Fixed your typo, Jason.

- C.

[bobcat]

hell once things go live in Europe i could see "american irregulars" fighting on both continents as great propaganda pulp. (lets face it the private sector is far more efficient at moving men/material) hell in area's when US military forces are engaged it would even be legal as the "national unorganized militia" as defined by federal law. (this is how more than a few american mercenaries have gotten around the UN's "mercenary convention")

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It'd have to be in a WWII propaganda style since the US (or any other nation for that matter) didn't send any actual troops to China.

Sorry mate, but that's not 100% correct - the 6th (United Kingdom) Infantry Division was formed from units in Hong Kong and sent into China, where it fought the Soviets alongside Chinese forces.

Given that Hong Kong would still have been a British Crown Colony at the time, I think it would be a logical port for supplies to enter the PRC through (on the grounds that the Soviet Navy couldn't actually attack it during 1995 / most of 1996) so I think it's quite possible that numbers of US "technical advisors" might have been in Hong Kong - some of them could well have become attached to the 6th UK Division after things kicked off in Europe.

Attached draft document expands very slightly on the idea (I think I posted a version of it before - it's been kicking around in my "to be completed pile" for ages)

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Sorry mate, but that's not 100% correct - the 6th (United Kingdom) Infantry Division was formed from units in Hong Kong and sent into China, where it fought the Soviets alongside Chinese forces.

Given that Hong Kong would still have been a British Crown Colony at the time, I think it would be a logical port for supplies to enter the PRC through (on the grounds that the Soviet Navy couldn't actually attack it during 1995 / most of 1996) so I think it's quite possible that numbers of US "technical advisors" might have been in Hong Kong - some of them could well have become attached to the 6th UK Division after things kicked off in Europe.

Attached draft document expands very slightly on the idea (I think I posted a version of it before - it's been kicking around in my "to be completed pile" for ages)

Hey Rainbow, yes I believe you did post your 6th Infantry Division write up before, but regardless, still a good doc.

Its been discussed before that Hong Kong and Macau would be two ports open during the Sino-Soviet fighting. And as a British colony, no doubt that the CIA and US military would be present.

two points about the 6th Infantry Division write up.

First, the Number 7 Intelligence Company. While 7 is a lucky number in Chinese culture, 8 is also a lucky number which in Cantonese sounds very similar to fortune (ie good fortune), Number 8 Intelligence Company because of the good intel they bring in? Or how about number 4 which is bad luck because it sounds like the Chinese word for death. It might spook the more traditional Chinese, but for the more westernized Hong Kongers and any British the Number 4 "Death" company might sound fearsome. Maybe not suitable for an Intelligence gathering unit but possibly for a combat arms unit.

Also, I've been doing some gathering of information on Hong Kong for my own t2k write up (which will probably never get done) but I was thinking about fleshing out the number of ethnic Chinese personnel that would be part of 6th ID. Hong Kong in 1996 had an estimated 1.4 million males fit for military service so there is a definite manpower pool that can be drawn upon to fill out 6th ID. Equipping and training this many is another question of course, but even a small fraction of 1.4 million will go a long way. What about adding a second or even third Hong Kong infantry battalion? Good call on the Royal Hong Kong Regiment being a recce unit, in my campaign they get reflagged as an infantry regiment and 2 additional battalions get added. The recce unit is renamed to something else (not sure what). Also as there is a 1.4 million manpower pool to draw from, one thing I was toying with was 41st Commando and a Para battalion filled out with Hong Kongers and stiffened with British NCOs and officers.

just a thought,
-bdd

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

That someone could've produced some of that "Socialist Realism" style Chinese propaganda artwork showing US and Chinese cooperation during the early stages of WWIII.

That stuff is a hoot, and a painting of brave-looking US soldiers standing side-by-side with the People's Army facing waves of Soviet tanks would be just too cool.

Yeah definitely. Anyone have good Photoshop skills? You could photoshop some of the Soviet/PRC propaganda artwork and replace the Soviet hammer and sickle with the Stars and Stripes.

I was intrigued by this post so I tried to see if Google could come up with any anti Soviet propaganda from the Sino Soviet split in the late 60's/early 70's.

Here's two images that came up. The first one is titled Smash the Soviet Revisionists. And the second is about PRC border guards defending the border during the 1968 Sino Soviet border clash.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

It'd be fantastic if someone could gin up that 2nd one to put a US soldier in Fritz helmet in place of the grenade-wielding soldier in the back, and maybe tuck a Ridgeway off in the background near that sign.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Sorry mate, but that's not 100% correct - the 6th (United Kingdom) Infantry Division was formed from units in Hong Kong and sent into China, where it fought the Soviets alongside Chinese forces.

Neither is your statement I'm afraid.
The Chinese/Soviet war kicked off in 1995.
The UK 6th ID was formed in late 1996, and "eventually entered China". It is likely this movement to contact with the Soviets only occurred well after they'd had some training time to bring them up to speed with Divisional and about operations.
Therefore, it's quite likely, even probable, there's at least 18 months between the outbreak of the war and the first western (in this case still largely Gurkhas though) troops entering into combat.

In actuality, the UK 6th ID didn't do anything remotely useful until around the same time as the war in Europe kicked off (probably even later), rendering the whole "western meddling in China" propaganda idea moot.

[James Langham]

As a middle ground, maybe the 6th Division did not deploy for some time but elements did. After all the amount of troops is hardly likely to make a difference but a largely symbolic deployment of smaller specialist elements would be likely and possibly effective. In my background I initially used the 6th in an anti-SF role.

[James Langham]

Rainbow,

as ever a great write up.

I love the Major General, your in-jokes are as bad as mine. Does he have a scientific adviser?

I would use the armoured white fist on black badge for the 6th (it is what is currently in use for the 6th in Afghanistan).

Maybe instead of SLRs the unit might use M16s that are likely to still be hanging round there in stores as they were used for jungle warfare prior to the SA80 being introduced.

If you have no objection I may incorporate elements into my background (although I will have to change units e.g. 10 Para are involved in the Battle for Warsaw Airport in my history).

I envisioned a Long March back to Nepal for the unit after everything finally collapses. this might make a great game or even a wargame campaign.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Sorry mate, but that's not 100% correct - the 6th (United Kingdom) Infantry Division was formed from units in Hong Kong and sent into China, where it fought the Soviets alongside Chinese forces.

Given that Hong Kong would still have been a British Crown Colony at the time, I think it would be a logical port for supplies to enter the PRC through (on the grounds that the Soviet Navy couldn't actually attack it during 1995 / most of 1996) so I think it's quite possible that numbers of US "technical advisors" might have been in Hong Kong - some of them could well have become attached to the 6th UK Division after things kicked off in Europe.

Attached draft document expands very slightly on the idea (I think I posted a version of it before - it's been kicking around in my "to be completed pile" for ages)

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Targan

Sounds like a possible commission for Nate

I'd love to...

But my artstyle wouldn't capture the feel that he'd be going for. but there IS someon on deviant art whose style is exactly what he's looking for. If i had the money, i'd be commissioning alot of various propaganda posters for some of my own setting books i've been wanting to do for over a decade.

[Rainbow Six]

Sorry for slow response...have been away on holiday for the last ten days.

Originally Posted by James Langham

Rainbow,

as ever a great write up.

I love the Major General, your in-jokes are as bad as mine. Does he have a scientific adviser?

I would use the armoured white fist on black badge for the 6th (it is what is currently in use for the 6th in Afghanistan).

Maybe instead of SLRs the unit might use M16s that are likely to still be hanging round there in stores as they were used for jungle warfare prior to the SA80 being introduced.

If you have no objection I may incorporate elements into my background (although I will have to change units e.g. 10 Para are involved in the Battle for Warsaw Airport in my history).

I envisioned a Long March back to Nepal for the unit after everything finally collapses. this might make a great game or even a wargame campaign.

I actually felt rather guilty about giving the Brig such a bit part role in my T2k World! Re: the patch, I took that from wikipedia.

Feel free to use / adapt as you wish. It was originally written to be relatively canon compliant (as opposed to fitting with my alternative SGUK, which ahs no 6th Division) although I did use the Royal Scots as the UK resident Battalion, which is (I think) the only deviation. To make it 100% canon compliant that would need to be changed - iirc one Battalion of the Scots Guards are missing from the canon orbat so would fit just as well (IRL the last resident British battalion was 1st Battalion, Black Watch - my cousin did his 22 years with them and took part in the handover ceremony

M16's work...may expand on this article at some point and will incorporate that if I do...

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

Hey Rainbow, yes I believe you did post your 6th Infantry Division write up before, but regardless, still a good doc.

Its been discussed before that Hong Kong and Macau would be two ports open during the Sino-Soviet fighting. And as a British colony, no doubt that the CIA and US military would be present.

two points about the 6th Infantry Division write up.

First, the Number 7 Intelligence Company. While 7 is a lucky number in Chinese culture, 8 is also a lucky number which in Cantonese sounds very similar to fortune (ie good fortune), Number 8 Intelligence Company because of the good intel they bring in? Or how about number 4 which is bad luck because it sounds like the Chinese word for death. It might spook the more traditional Chinese, but for the more westernized Hong Kongers and any British the Number 4 "Death" company might sound fearsome. Maybe not suitable for an Intelligence gathering unit but possibly for a combat arms unit.

Also, I've been doing some gathering of information on Hong Kong for my own t2k write up (which will probably never get done) but I was thinking about fleshing out the number of ethnic Chinese personnel that would be part of 6th ID. Hong Kong in 1996 had an estimated 1.4 million males fit for military service so there is a definite manpower pool that can be drawn upon to fill out 6th ID. Equipping and training this many is another question of course, but even a small fraction of 1.4 million will go a long way. What about adding a second or even third Hong Kong infantry battalion? Good call on the Royal Hong Kong Regiment being a recce unit, in my campaign they get reflagged as an infantry regiment and 2 additional battalions get added. The recce unit is renamed to something else (not sure what). Also as there is a 1.4 million manpower pool to draw from, one thing I was toying with was 41st Commando and a Para battalion filled out with Hong Kongers and stiffened with British NCOs and officers.

just a thought,
-bdd

I don't think a second HK Infantry Battalion is out of the question. Hong Kong also had (indeed still has) a relatively large and well equipped / armed civilan police force, the Royal Hong Kong Police, which consisted almost entriely of ethnic Chinese (historically senior officers were British, although in the years before handover that was changing, with more Chinese being appointed to senior positions).

With regards 7 Company, main reason I chose seven was (I believe) it symbolises togetherness, which I thought worked for a combined UK / Chinese unit.

I have used a certain degree of artistic licence though for there already was a Seven Int Coy in the Cold War British Army orbat, which was based in Germany as part of the BAOR (Eight Int Coy was based in England). As far as I know any new units would have to have a number of Ten or higher (excluding Twelve and Fourteen, which were assigned to Northern Ireland).

I think 88 would probably work. Again, will look at that for a possible future second draft.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Neither is your statement I'm afraid.
The Chinese/Soviet war kicked off in 1995.
The UK 6th ID was formed in late 1996, and "eventually entered China". It is likely this movement to contact with the Soviets only occurred well after they'd had some training time to bring them up to speed with Divisional and about operations.
Therefore, it's quite likely, even probable, there's at least 18 months between the outbreak of the war and the first western (in this case still largely Gurkhas though) troops entering into combat.

In actuality, the UK 6th ID didn't do anything remotely useful until around the same time as the war in Europe kicked off (probably even later), rendering the whole "western meddling in China" propaganda idea moot.

Yep. I don't think I said anywhere that the 6th Division entered China prior to the start of the War in Europe, either in my post or in the write up. In fact the write up specifically states that the 6th Division wasn't formed until the end of 1996 and didn't leave the Hong Kong area until May 1997 (which fits with your statement about there being at least 18 months between the outbreak of war (assuming you mean the Sino Soviet War) and the UK sending troops into China - Aug 95 to May 97 is 21 months). I've also made it quite clear in the writeup that the 6th Division is mainly (though far from exclusively) Ghurka, but nonetheless it is a part of the British Army.

Therefore not sure what inaccuracy / inaccuracies you're referring to.