OT-Written by me two years ago

[Cdnwolf]

For my time line I wrote the following:

North Korea developed medium range nuclear missiles. Launches second Korean War. Nuclear missiles hit Japan for the second time in 100 years. Also Vladivostok Russia and Guam are nuked.

US and Russia nukes Korea and fallout reaches China. Chinese forces invade Korea and territory around Vladivostok.

China invades Taiwan preceded by tactical nuclear strikes. To secure seaward approaches Luzon Philippines is also attacked.

Hope this doesn't happen ....

[The Rifleman]

It won't happen yet. The Chinese aren't quite ready with their aircraft carriers yet. After they can project their airpower beyond the range of land bases maybe.

Something more important to think about: in 1993, North Korea bought 12 diesel powered submarines from the USSR as scrap. 10 of these were Golf IIs, 2 were Foxtrots. It was assumed that they would use them for parts or try to refurbish them. That makes no sense as they were designed in the 50s and quite wore out. However, the 10 Gs all carried missles.

The North Koreans are smart enough to know that they are not able to stand up to the US/South Koreans in a conventional war, like they could have 20 years ago. Instead, they have been quite busy with asymetrical warfare. Their special forces number 100,000. They've been experimenting with lasers to blind pilots, cyber attacks on the economy and trying to crash satallites. I would venture a guess that the North Koreans could be smart enough to try to mount missle launching tubes from the G class subs onto merchent ships. They would then use them like the old WW1 "Q" boats, and have them out in the sealanes on buisness. Why hit usless Guam when you can just launch a nuke from right outside San Diego or Portland? Heck, for that matter, why not even right outside Washington DC? Didn't in WW2 ships used fake flags? Even today, LIBERIA has a huge fleet of merchant ships flying their flag... for tax purposes. They could easily register their "merchant ships" anywhere thy like. Don't forget that these people are also the ones that attached a laser to a ship and blinded pilots right of the coast of Washington State a few years back.

Think about it: The Foxtrots and Golfs are useless junk, even by third world standards. They have better... why else would they want them?

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Using a Nuclear weapon in an unprovoked way like that would be the end of the North Korea. I don't know if we would use Nukes in response but we would sure as hell would destroy all their military assets with a massive conventional attack.

I am pretty sure that we have accurate Intel on any converted ship and are tracking and monitoring them if they exist.

It would be suicide to attack the US or any other Industrial country like that for any group.

Hell Look at the outrage at the attack of 9/11, even some pacifists I know, at the time were looking for heads to roll. Now just imagine if some one nukes say Seattle or LA or San Francisco.

[The Rifleman]

A nuclear war is indeed a way to end North Korea. If they want to risk that or not is anyone's guess. As far as us knowing if they have a nuclear capable merchant ship here are a few things to chew over:

- Periodically, we do find secret tunnels that go for miles under the DMZ that were built without our knowledge

- North Korea has a fleet of submarines of unknown size that operate from concrete sub pens UNDER ground, UNDER water that come in and out of huge iron gates. The special operations community admitted that due to location and secrecy, no one knows when subs are coming and going.

- No one noticed or tracked a North Korean sub that sank a South Korean navy ship, even after torpedos were launched

- No one knows what happened to the 12 subs that were purchased 20 years ago

- No intelligence service has been able to build an accurate order of battle for the North Korean Army

- The entire Korean military is built on asymetrical warfare, to include sleeper cells, cyber attacks, operations using civillian status as cover

I've spent quite a bit of time reading about the KPA lately. I have to admit, I'm quite impressed with the general size of their forces and how they are employed. Looks to me like they've paid close attention to history and lessons learned at other nations expense, yet at the same time they are quite progressive with technology. I reccomend doing some reading as well. You'd be quite surprised.

[Louied]

Just discussing this with someone the other day.
Say 9 of those 12 subs are operational, now I don't know
IRL if this is workable but and bear with me:
- put a nuke on each boat with a SF detachment. Only the
SF team knows what their "package" is.
- bluster about my missiles and their range etc get everyone looking at that
- meanwhile I park my boats off Seattle/Bremerton, San Francisco, Honolulu, Los Angeles and San Diego. If I am feeling really tough the other four park off of
the Panama Canal, New York, DC, and Norfolk.
- now for our Navy guys, how close inshore do you think these subs can get ?
- NKs, detonate nuke on each ship. NK navy crews might not be
that crazy but I think those SF guys might be.
- how much damage to those selected locations would there be ?
- would it be enough that we might see a scenario like in Jericho ?

Crazy scenario or a "cunning plan" ?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

China = Dr. Evazan
SK = Luke Skywalker
US = Ben Kenobi
NK = Ponda Baba
Russia = Cantina bartender.

PONDA BABA (to LUKE): (GROWLS)

DR. EVAZAN (to LUKE): "He doesn't like you."

LUKE (to DR. EVAZAN and PONDA BABA): "I'm sorry."

DR. EVAZAN (to LUKE): "I don't like you either! You'd best watch yourself! We're wanted men. I've the death sentence on twelve systems!"

LUKE (to DR. EVAZAN): "I'll be careful - "

DR. EVAZAN (to LUKE): "You'll be dead!"

BEN KENOBI (INTERRUPTING): "This...little one's not worth the effort. Now, let me get you something - "

DR. EVAZAN pushes LUKE out of the way; PONDA BABA draws his sidearm and aims it at BEN KENOBI.

CANTINA BARTENDER (shouting): "No blasters! No blasters!"

BEN KENOBI draws his lightsaber and cuts off PONDA BABA'S arm. PONDA BABA yells in agony. CUT TO FLOOR, PAN L over severed arm, lying in pool of blood.

BEN KENOBI eyes bar patrons warily, deactivates lightsaber.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Seriously though if it does come to war and we "go north" (doubtful on both counts) I hope we bring the USS Pueblo home with grand ceremony. Fuck the norkers and any "national pride" of theirs.

[bobcat]

if war breaks out with north korea they won't be the only unconventional types to take to the field. hell when i was there even my KATUSA's learned enough dirty tricks to keep the game interesting.

[headquarters]

Ahh..the politics of tension.

Who benefits from the tension? The NK leadership who scares its people with constant loudspeaker and radio announcements that an imperialist US attack is on the way of course..

The fear of US invasion is real in Pyongyang. And all the while the sanctions are slowly starving the NK populace. The NK leadership could divert assets from the army and the elite decadent leadership to compensate the deficit like a responsible leadership would. Right?

War would end the NK leadership. But millions would die. Seoul would be hit by 10 000 shells within 15 minutes of an US attack in earnest on the NK.

The NK leadership is unpredictable and posture dangerously. But they aim not to topple the US. They are in fact not the 007 villains they pose as with a devious plan to bring a doomsday device to the CONUS. They are the jailors of a nation brainwashed and scared into submission and fanatical obedience.Every level of tension they can increase is a win for them. A little skirmish would be great. A US POW would be a circus to bizarre to even make up.

War would have the Yellow Sea run red. I for one hope the US take the bait.

[bobcat]

the problem with war in north korea is this. people though iraq was bad, they think afghanistan is bad. we start fighting a war in that theatre sure the regular NK army will fold like the iraqis did but from the word go we will be fighting against guerrillas trained on every tactic that has worked against us since the korean war. armed with weapons that are well maintained and just to keep things interesting the north korean navy can damn near sink supply ships at will unless we go back to the method of using well defended convoys. add in the IED's that will be hitting our log-packs regularly, sam-bushes against our choppers.


in a nutshell our boots on the ground will kick ass for about a week before they run out of beans and bullets.
just food for thought.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by bobcat

the problem with war in north korea is this. people though iraq was bad, they think afghanistan is bad. we start fighting a war in that theatre sure the regular NK army will fold like the iraqis did but from the word go we will be fighting against guerrillas trained on every tactic that has worked against us since the korean war.

The South Koreans will lead the occupation and take the brunt of any insurgency. For PR purposes I don't think the US will have much of a role in any squashing of said insurgency.

The Chinese will have to worry about it more than the US will as the Northern border will be chaos during and after any conflict.

[Cdnwolf]

Read Red Phoenix by Larry Bond for an interesting take on war. (Pre-USSR breakup)

From the author who collaborated with Tom Clancy on Red Storm Rising, this is the book that dares to show us the military hardware, global upheavals, and raw combat a second Korean War would unleash. How F-16s would blast across the 38th Parallel. How ultra-modern submarines would vie for the seas. And how two armies would turn the snowfields of Asia red with blood. A thundering geopolitical thriller of vast scope, this is Red Phoenix - and a new standard for military/political suspense fiction.

[stormlion1]

The strange part is this is the wrong season for North Korea to even think about invading South Korea. Fall and Winter are the best seasons for a invasion. The reason? The Rice Patties are drained in winter allowing the use of tanks and other vehicles to move without the use of roads which could be mined. North Koreas entire plan is to quickly take the South and present a fait acompli to the world before the US, the UN, China, etc, etc can raise a stink. The real fear isn't of war breaking out but of the North Koreans to bang there drums and say they will stop if we give them food, money, etc. That's just a losing proposition as anytime they need more they begin to bang away on the drums again and someone will just pony up to shut them up again.

As for there subs, maybe they have German Style underground Sub Pens? Wouldn't be hard to build them and they could easily hide pens themselves but even a dry dock to rebuild them. They have plenty of experience in tunnel construction for both troop movement but even as runways. A set of Sub pens should be childs play.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Read Red Phoenix by Larry Bond for an interesting take on war. (Pre-USSR breakup)

From the author who collaborated with Tom Clancy on Red Storm Rising, this is the book that dares to show us the military hardware, global upheavals, and raw combat a second Korean War would unleash. How F-16s would blast across the 38th Parallel. How ultra-modern submarines would vie for the seas. And how two armies would turn the snowfields of Asia red with blood. A thundering geopolitical thriller of vast scope, this is Red Phoenix - and a new standard for military/political suspense fiction.

Red Phoenix is a phenomenally good book.

If you're not going to play an "apocalypse" using the T2k rules you could do a hell of a lot worse than run a scenario where the North has steamrolled into the south and the players are cut off and are fragments of a division that was destroyed piecemeal like the 5th in T2k. Yes, "help" is "eventually" coming - but how long can you hold out? Might be fun.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

As for there subs, maybe they have German Style underground Sub Pens? Wouldn't be hard to build them and they could easily hide pens themselves but even a dry dock to rebuild them. They have plenty of experience in tunnel construction for both troop movement but even as runways. A set of Sub pens should be childs play.

See earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted by The Rifleman

North Korea has a fleet of submarines of unknown size that operate from concrete sub pens UNDER ground, UNDER water that come in and out of huge iron gates. The special operations community admitted that due to location and secrecy, no one knows when subs are coming and going.

[Cdnwolf]

Okay North Korea... time to send in Chuck Norris...

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Okay North Korea... time to send in Chuck Norris...

I am expecting a full surrender shortly.

[stormlion1]

Wow, completely missed that.