Recon Capabilities

[kalos72]

Lets ignore fuel/electronics / aircraft survival to start...

I am trying to figure out how a unit gets intell on an active possibly hostile town without making itself known.

1 - You can send 2-3 foot soldiers with binos and watch them for a few days. But you stand the chance of such a small unit getting hit while travelling since it would have limited offensive capability.

2 - A mounted patrol would be faster, bring more firepower but be harder to conceal.

3 - Aerial infrared/photos of the area. But would you get the detail you needed? Whos in command? Are they friendly?

4 - A spy, lone guy wanders into town to barter or something. Again, limited survivability if attacked. What if he is white and the town is filled with Mexican army regulars or vice versa?

5 - Develop a small trade route to the city and develop a wandering caravan type of cover. Again weak if attacked, hard to develop the cover, but you would have unlimited access and would also develop an additional trade route in the process.

How would you recon an area you wanted to know the goings on in before you send troops? Who lives there? What are their affiliations? What resources do they have? What about that coal mine outside of town? All the while limiting your risk of asset lose AND intel that I am there and looking....

[kcdusk]

Is your question based on a T2K type situation? Or more modern times (Merc)?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

This is one way to do it.


A small patrol (4 to 8 personnel) will infiltrate the target area to conduct initial reconnaissance - this is as much to find good surveillance sites as it is to gain first impressions.
This recce may only last a few hours or up to 12 or more hours and typically, the main group stays in a harbour back from the observation post (OP) to provide support should the observer team get into the shit.

The observer team is typically just two people. Notes are taken about the things they observe, range cards drawn up and so on.
Temporary hides are constructed for the OP and harbour so personnel remain hidden from ground and aerial observation.

Based on their observations, a more thorough recce is conducted using the surveillance sites the first group identified (and if they aren't suitable then the second team will need time to find more suitable locations). Team will construct longer term hides for same reasons as above.

This team could also be small or it could be larger and split up to cover more area (i.e. multiple harbours and OPs or one harbour and multiple OPs). Specialist tools may be deployed at this time e.g. microphones, video cameras, ground sensors and so on.
Again a small crew will observe the target area and compile information while the main body occupies a harbour area. Sometimes you may not be able to have a separate observation post and harbour and you may have to combine them in the same hide.

Observation time may be a single day but more likely several days so you can observe such things as main entry/exit points, secondary entry/exit points, daily routines, what time people stop working/go to sleep, what paths sentries take (e.g. do they take the same path every day or a different path each time), water sources, comms capability, vehicles, condition of the vehicles, number of personnel, attitude of the personnel, condition of their equipment, who appears to be in command, fortifications, obvious weak points and strong points and so on.

In regards to point 4, if the information gathered indicates that it is worth the risk, then you could send one or two people into the town to spy out the location but this should always be considered as very high risk and they should have good backup support.

Reconnaissance takes time, sometimes the team could spend four or five days laying up in the area to recce a site and sometimes you might spend several weeks in the area rotating teams in and out as needed.
However you have to base the requirement for extended intel against the amount of time you actually have to collect that intel and also against how much/little time you have to report the information before it is needed.

[kalos72]

Thanks Stainless...that gives me a better idea of how its done.

And KC, T2K really but even just the real life data is helpfull.

I was wondering if the FLIR capability was good enough yet to use a small ultralight with a FLIR pod to recon the site. At night with no power, I imagine you would get some good images.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You're welcome, that's the benefit of having served in a recce platoon
What's interesting for me is that the techniques I was taught for the army are now being taught to police and other investigators to help tackle crime in rural areas - and not just to prevent Farmer Jack's new tractor from being stolen. It's also being conducted to prevent poaching, livestock theft, illegal dumping, animal cruelty and environmental damage, to investigate cases of fraud and to intercept smugglers amongst other things.

In regards to the FLIR pod, I don't know offhand how big/small they'd be in the mid-1990s but I think the biggest problem would be the power requirements of the pod with the second biggest problem in a T2k setting being the equipment needed to view the images. All that stuff might be too much for a small ultralight to carry?

[kalos72]

Perhaps a light and quite helicopter then? An OH-58 or Defender maybe.

Here is a scenario:

You and your group are in control over a town. Your town needs more trained mechanics lets say. So you want to send scouts out to other towns looking for mechanics to come work in your town.

1 - You aren't sure of the others towns status - hostile/friendly
2 - You aren't sure how they would react to a proposal to steal assets like trained locals
3 - How do you convince the local to move to your town and that your offer isn't some scam to kidnap you and put you in chains?

OR

You want to send a scout team to check out the NG Armory in the closest major city to look for weapons but whats the best way to do it?

From a T2K perspective...

[kcdusk]

T2K method ... send a guy on a horse to the towns entry point, waving a white flag.

your questions a good one. how often do PCs come across a town and not know whether to bypass it or not? Most often my guys bypass towns. But as a Ref, often towns are neutral and have town based encounters setup, some of which might help PCs (resupply or story hooks).

In a T2K world, PCs dont always have the time or resources to take even a day working out of a town is friendly or not. If a town is "friendly" it might have defences setup but nothing obviously offensive, if women and children can be seen it normally means the town is not an all-male affair which is more likely to be dangerous to the PCs, and i think if you can see animals and vegetable patches then the town is more likely to be self sufficient and "friendly".

Whereas an all-male, offensively obvious (gun trucks!) town with no apparhent means of self sufficientcy (ie farming) is more likely in my view to be "danger" to our PCs. These are some of the "easy" and quick ways PCs might be able to determine if a town is worth visiting or giving a miss.

If you watch Walking Dead (I dont any more, crap) then the town of Woodbury would be interesting. Its defensive, cant see any obvious farming but i'm sure its there. Women and children present ... but might not be PC friendly. The best intel comes from inside the walls .... (snatch a town member and question them).

[B.T.]

Some very good points here. Espacially kcdusk's post gave me to think!

I allways thought, that the towns would have a valid interest in showing their attitude. So the idea of a white flag isn't dumb at all. Even the towns have an interest to get in contact with the "rest of the world". The townsfolk may be interested in barter or information or rumours about other places. Or the inhabitants of a settlement, farmyard, or small town may like to know, who is around.

In my T2k-universe some towns have some kind of patrols send out by themselves. This may be a small hunting group. Or maybe a small group of citizen, who try to hold contact to neighboring settlements or nearby military units, to get information about what is happening (These could even act as some kind of irregular postal service.). And, off course, traders. Traders could be the inhabitants of one settlement, trading spare parts from the shut down local tractor plant with the potatos from the village down the old road. Or traders could be the more adventurous guys (and gals), roamimg the land and make a living out of lange range trade.

I allways thought, that this kind of trading party would be a very reliable source, when it comes to the question, if a certain spot on the map is of value. Something like: "Americans, don't go to Szadel. The locals are really pissed and will try to jail you and hand you over to the Soviet commander!"
Or: "If you came to Krotoszyn, visit my old pal Lewandowsky. He knows, who needs what and will help you."

Obviously an encounter could be the more interesting for the players. And if they find a way to earn the traders trust/confidence this could be worth the trader's weight in gold, sotospeak.

On the other hand: The question, if those traders are trustworthy is something, that has to be checked. Encounters can get the more interesting. And actual ROLE-PLAYING may be more imprtant in these situations, than military planning.

[kalos72]

Good information here....thank you all.

The two scenarios that started this conversation amongst my group were:

1 - The Texas Legion out of Tyler - How to scout them out to take me out and clear the area while trying to hide the fact.

2 - the idea of sending scouts to other populated areas looking for recruits without getting your guys killed in the process.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Keep in mind too, that what I described is just one method of doing such a recce.

You might also approach it by first studying maps, aerial and ground photos, previous mission reports and so on and use them to identify potential harbour and OP sites.
Other sources of information could also be checked, such as travellers, merchants, friendly forces and so on to find out what they know about the target area. That could also involve the potential risk of tipping off the people who are in the target area!

But again, everything comes down to how much time you have before you need the information. In some cases, you might only be able to send a small team in for a few hours to check out the place and just hope they get enough intel.

When it comes to your scenario about the Texas Legion, you could send in a recce team to locate harbours and OPs but not with just further surveillance in mind. They would also be looking for places to site their own sniping hides.
The recce team leaves or could even stay in place to be the command & control (C2) for the operation. (I say sniping because as we know in T2k, there's no guarantee that you'll have proper snipers and proper sniping rifles. All you might have are hunting rifles or scoped battle rifles and some people who can shoot well enough!)

Once the team has the information they need, the sniping teams move in along with the C2 team (if it wasn't the recce team). The C2 team keeps the location under observation and whenever they have a good target, they radio one of the sniping teams to engage it.

The sniping team should relocate as soon as possible after firing the shot and move to another hide (or even out of the area if necessary). Another sniping team could have the opportunity to take out some of the enemy forces as they investigate. This has the potential to weaken the enemy ability to follow up your teams as they will have to split their forces to investigate each attack.

This scenario is a typical harassment fight, killing small numbers of the enemy and then getting away so they don't find out who's doing the shooting but it will obviously take a lot of time if the enemy forces are large

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Good information here....thank you all.

The two scenarios that started this conversation amongst my group were:

1 - The Texas Legion out of Tyler - How to scout them out to take me out and clear the area while trying to hide the fact.

2 - the idea of sending scouts to other populated areas looking for recruits without getting your guys killed in the process.

For the second one, or for any mission into settled, populated areas, I wonder if female characters might be best suited for infiltrating, disguised as civilians. This, of course, is particularly hazardous, as it depends on the attitudes of whoever is guarding the place, and the attitudes of the civilians you are trying to contact. OTOH, it is at least less obvious than sending in uniformed & armed males. Un-uniformed males of military age are guaranteed to arouse suspicion, females less so.

[rcaf_777]

Here's some Ideas

Robert Baden-Powell the founder of the Boy Scouts frequently travelled disguised as a butterfly collector, incorporating plans of military installations into his drawings of butterfly wings.

A homemade espionage balloon, these are neither manned nor moored to the ground; they are designed to fly into hostile territories, where they would record intelligence data and fly back to the home base. These could made using RC Blimps and cameras (Flim ones)

[kalos72]

Using female scouts....nice. Assuming they would be protected or defended in someway of course.

I like the aerial approach but just not sure what sort of detail you would get back. Is it simple a FLIR information or are there other electronic devises that give more information.

Again, not taking into account fuel, availability of said equipment or EMP effects.

[rcaf_777]

How about a hangilder or a camera with a telescopic lenes, you set it up soem distance from the target and take shots and even move around getting different angles

[Apache6]

I think in a T2K scenario, the majority of intelligence collection will be done through "Human intelligence." You can gain a vast amount of information by talking to people. That information should be collaborated by other means, but talking to local farmers, traders and authorities is a great place to start.

For these type of scenario, local scouts and allies are invaluable, for knowledge of the area, and just as importantly knowledge of the people.

A Uniformed US soldier (male or female) or any American who enters a Polish town will draw more attention than a Polish military age male who is looking for work or heading home. The Pole is almost certainly going to be able to get more information as well.

I think it would be very unusual for a unit to approach a town and not already have heard some rumors or seen indications of the condition of the town and the character of the rulers. If the local leaders are rogue maruaders or cannibals the area around will be empty.

Of course the rumors might be false or intentionally misleading. We are going to spread rumors that we are insane lunatics so you stay away from our basically decent community. Lots of opportunity for roleplay.

[WallShadow]

The old Wandering Pedlar trick is great for getting the inside view of a town. It will also give the characters a chance to see how wealthy/healthy/armed/paranoid/friendly a town's inhabitants are. And find out what products are needed and wanted, or plentiful and for sale.