Razor or concertina wire

[kcdusk]

1. What does razor or concertina wire mean to you? A single looped length? Or 2 or 3 layers of strands?

2. What sort of skill checks do you employ for an individual to work there way through/over wire? What are the chances of injury or becoming tangled up?

3. What sort of skill checks do you employ for a vehicle to work there way over wire? What are the chances of it becoming bogged/tangled up?

4. other modifiers or factors i am considering are time, under fire or not, time taken, night/day time. Are there any others?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

1. What does razor or concertina wire mean to you? A single looped length? Or 2 or 3 layers of strands?

2. What sort of skill checks do you employ for an individual to work there way through/over wire? What are the chances of injury or becoming tangled up?

3. What sort of skill checks do you employ for a vehicle to work there way over wire? What are the chances of it becoming bogged/tangled up?

4. other modifiers or factors i am considering are time, under fire or not, time taken, night/day time. Are there any others?

1)Most concertina wires around installations seem to be triple-strand. Around the TAC in Korea, we used single-strand, though by regs we were supposed to use triple strand (it was glossed over by the ADC(M)).

2) I've always used a straight dexterity check, combined with stealth if the character was trying to be quiet. (In practice, one of the best ways to cross concertina quickly is to have someone throw himself on the wire, then everyone else step on their back; throw your loads over the wire before you cross. The last person over picks the ground man out of the concertina. Note, it's not quiet, it's just quick. Make sure it's not boobytrapped!

3)I've never had to adjudicate that situation; I'll have to think about it.

4) Of course at night, you see a lot less, but hear a lot more. (No one has ever been able to give a good explanation on that one.) If you're reasonably quiet, you can really ream out guardposts.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Something else to consider is if the wire is new or older and by that I mean year of manufacture. Older types tended to be plain steel but newer types seem to be galvanized steel, zinc coated or something to that affect, basically to stop them from rusting. Rusty wire will obviously weaken over time but it's also a lot harder to see because it blends better with the background colours.

As for noise travelling further at night, as I recall it (although I'm trying to remember this from lessons from a few decades back so anyone feel free to jump in with corrections), there's two factors involved. First (secondary factor), is the lower level of background noise compared to daytime and second (primary factor), is that sound is conducted better in the denser air of night.

Apparently sound travels faster in a warm environment but it also needs material dense enough to effectively conduct the soundwaves.
So while air might be warm during the daytime, it also tends to be lighter and will rise, resulting in less density at ground level.
At night when the air is colder it will fall, it will also collect water vapour and both these increase its density compared to warm air.

Both these effects are constantly subject to environmental conditions so your experiences can be totally different in apparently similar types of location and also the same location during seasonal changes, different weather and so on.

[B.T.]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

2. What sort of skill checks do you employ for an individual to work there way through/over wire? What are the chances of injury or becoming tangled up?

3. What sort of skill checks do you employ for a vehicle to work there way over wire? What are the chances of it becoming bogged/tangled up?

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

2) I've always used a straight dexterity check, combined with stealth if the character was trying to be quiet. (In practice, one of the best ways to cross concertina quickly is to have someone throw himself on the wire, then everyone else step on their back; throw your loads over the wire before you cross. The last person over picks the ground man out of the concertina. Note, it's not quiet, it's just quick. Make sure it's not boobytrapped!

3)I've never had to adjudicate that situation; I'll have to think about it.

@kcdusk: Like Paul mentioned: If you want to have a check, dex would be the attribute to use. You could have a skill check for combat engineer. (Something like making the check on level easier for a PC with engineer skills)

@pmulcahy11b: Another good way to cross a barbed wire (concertina or razor) is the deployment of a ladder. Espacially in Urban warfare a short ladder, made of wood, comes in handy, crossing concertina wire is one of the reasons.
kcdusks last question is something, where I have to give the same answer as Paul did: I don't know.

In general: In certain situations I don't have checks for crossing wire. If your players are interested in kit and stuff, you could remind them of the fact, that several bayonets were designed to cut wire. Just to name a few: the U.S. M9, the various AK bayonets, and the German ACK.
Hope, this helps.

[Sanjuro]

When I was trained on the SA80, we were told the bayonet's wire cutting tool would cut US and Soviet (showing my age here) wire- but not British wire. Every fireteam therefore had to carry a pair of wire cutters.

[mikeo80]

As far as vehicles crossing razor or concertina, IMHO if the vehicle is tracked, it goes straight through. This ability is why the tank was first used in WWI. To break through the masses of wires used by the German Army in the trench warfare. Once the wire was broken, the infantry could engage the enemy to clear out the trench. (A nice side note, tanks were impervious to machine gun fire. The infantry learned very quickly to get behind the tank to lessen casualties.) There is the small issue of noise. There is nothing that says "Good morning, sunshine" like the sound of heavy treads smashing into your defensive works. Hopefully, you have something nasty planned....

Now a wheeled vehicle? Like Paul said, I gots' to think about that....

My $0.02

Mike

[Apache6]

"1. What does razor or concertina wire mean to you? A single looped length? Or 2 or 3 layers of strands?:

Each 'coil' of concertina wire is 2 loops of wire, interconnected. Its tough to cut and catches on to clothing and just about everything else. If its a single coil sitting on the deck, it only stands about 30" high and can be hurtled or pulled easily. If its' properly employed it'll be at least 2 strands, staked down every 10 3-5 M, and should have barbed wire run through it.

- Razor wire is also a couple of loops of interconnected wire, but the edge is at first very sharp and slices skin and other stuff. It's very hard to work with, recover or move once installed. In US, razor wire is primarily employed for permenant employments, while concertina is used if its going to be moved. cuts.

"2. What sort of skill checks do you employ for an individual to work there way through/over wire? What are the chances of injury or becoming tangled up?"

-Most important question to ask, is the obstacle covered by effectuve observation/fire. The most important thing that will determine the success is the distraction, obscuration or suppression of the overwatch element.

-I'd say breaching a wire obstacle should be an Easy CbtEngr Task (assuming wire cutters, assualt ladder, or door) or a Difficult agility task, assuming your trying to work through it without tools or leaving trace.

- Making a improvised bangalore torpedoe to blow a breach should also be easy cbtengr task, but requires explosives and will be loud when it gos.

- The fast way is to use assualt ladders to bridge and flaten the wire. A wooden door, liberated from nearest building or a heavy tarp can be used as well. This will make noise and likely be visible since your going over the top.

- The slow/deliberate way is to cut the bottom strings with wire cutters. A second man wearing heavy leather gloves holds the wire on either side of the cut so it does not recoil back causing noise and getting caught on stuff. Should be 'previously disturbed with 'grappling hook' before getting close in case of boobytraps. You can also try to dig under.

3. What sort of skill checks do you employ for a vehicle to work there way over wire? What are the chances of it becoming bogged/tangled up?

- Depends a lot on how its employed. Even many wheeled vehciles will drive through improperly employed wire. Tracked vehilces will run over most wire obstacles, at first. Concertina and barbed wire wrapped around the road and drive wheels will likely (75% chance?) stop most tracked vehilces within 200 - 1100 M (1+1d10 x 100m), unless the crew stops and spends 10 min - 1 hour clearing the tracks.

[dragoon500ly]

one of the things that was stressed in tanks was to never make any turn while crossing a wire barrier, hit it straight on and maintain at least 15-20mph.

Why the no turn...military wire is made of fairly decent steel, when you slew your tracks, some of it will get caught up in the end connectors and be transferred to your final drive sprocket, get enough of it wound around the sprocket and it will shear bolts, pop the sprocket right off and immobilize your vehicle. Not a nice thing to have happen when in engagement range of a bunch of RPGs...

Now days (at least with the M-1s) it was taught that you hook up a mine plow to the front and then bull your way through.

This is one of the reasons why the field fortifications manuals also stress the need to deploy wire deep, in multiple layers and at angles to each barrier, when the tanks maneuver to breach the wire, you get flank shots at their armor and have an increased chance to snagging a tank or two.

the simple coils of concertina that get tossed out during a field ex won't slow a tank down....on a lot of FTXs, I've seen a platoon of tanks go balls out and run right over it.

As for wheeled vehicles...don't. One FTX in Germany, the engineers deployed a triple row of concertina, in the classic triangle pattern, a section of German Luchs hit the barrier at speed and wrapped an amazing amount of wire around their axles. Took their crews and several "volunteers" the better part of a day to get everything cut loose.

[pmulcahy11b]

With wheeled vehicles, it another variable would be if the vehicle has puncture-resistant tires.

[dragoon500ly]

Not as much as one would think, one of the Luch's had hit the wire right at the junction of two rolls, broke the connectors and wrapped wire around the hubs of three of its wheels. Came to a stop when the wheels stopped a turnin! We helped cut wire off then assisted while the crew pryed the wheels off and cleaned the rest of the wire off (and out) of the hubs.

The other Luch had hit a roll head on and its two front wheels were torn to pieces when they pulled the wire forward, until the wire snagged on part of a concrete road bed and pulled tight.

It is amazing how strong concerntina can be!!

[pmulcahy11b]

It takes special gloves to handle concertina, unless you're fond of slashing your hands and wrists repeatedly. They're cowhide gloves that have small staples in them, making almost a mailed first. (I've always wondered what would happen if you gave someone a nice roundhouse punch while wearing one of those.)

[kcdusk]

Sounds like we should all be using concertina wire to channel our PCs to places they dont want to go!

in the T2K war, how common would in be to come across it in the field in Europe do you think? In the USA?

Do you think it is something that would only be around installations or emplaced defensive positions, or would you find it blocking some city streets?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Sounds like we should all be using concertina wire to channel our PCs to places they dont want to go!

in the T2K war, how common would in be to come across it in the field in Europe do you think? In the USA?

Do you think it is something that would only be around installations or emplaced defensive positions, or would you find it blocking some city streets?

Most definitely an option

Very common

and
Yes to all

[CDAT]

1. What does razor or concertina wire mean to you? A single looped length? Or 2 or 3 layers of strands?
A wire spring loaded countinus loops with razors/blades on it. There are two ways that I was tought to emplace it the first is as a single strand, with there being a total of 11 of them one after the next, the second way was triple strand, two strands on the ground touching each other and the last one on top, all tied into each other.

2. What sort of skill checks do you employ for an individual to work there way through/over wire? What are the chances of injury or becoming tangled up?
Not sure about skill checks, dex sounds good. As far as becoming tangled up 100% chance the real question is how bad and how much noise are you going to make. Even when we were emplacing it we would get tangled up some, was murder on our uniforms, if you are not under fire injurys will be minor cuts and such, if you are under fire we expected to loss 90% to clear a wire obstical under fire with the proper equipment, with out I would say nice knowing you.

3. What sort of skill checks do you employ for a vehicle to work there way over wire? What are the chances of it becoming bogged/tangled up?
Luck, if it is emplaced properly almost 100% that it will bog down the vehicle. If it is not emplaced properly than much eaiser to get through.

4. other modifiers or factors i am considering are time, under fire or not, time taken, night/day time. Are there any others?
Time is a big one if you try and hurry then you will end up takeing more time as you will get stuck more. Under fire makes it a death trap see above 90% loss rate. Night/day you will get snaged more at night but if you take time and they do not have night vision that could help with under fire. One of the big ones is equipment, wire WILL tear up any equipment that you use on it that is not specifically made for it. If you are trying to move it out of the way and keep it or leave it there but in servisable shape time is the big one, if you are doing a combat breach you need special equipment, not really any other way to do so.

[James Langham]

Regarding the hearing aspect at night, another theory is that as vision reduces, the other senses compensate even short term in the same way that a blind person's hearing improves.