[TW 2013] Shooting through cover

[Michael Lewis]

How do you determine if you hit somebody shooting through their cover?

For instance, someone is in a house shooting out of a window. I'm assuming that a bullet will go through siding and drywall. If the armor doesn't stop all the bullet's damage, how do you determine if the bullet hits him or her?

Or do you even bother and just say bullets won't go through the walls to improve player/npc survive ability?

[Bullet Magnet]

Well, it's been a long time since I've played or ran a T2K game, and I don't recall it coming up in the few games I was in.

However, since you bring up the question, I think it needs to be a judgment call based on the construction of the wall. The v1 rules had a small list of armor values for some types of walls/barricades. I'd guess a typical house wall might stop a point or two of damage; if the house is brick maybe a bit more. If you want to get technical, perhaps some chance the projectile hits a stud. And of course, the weapon/ammo should play a factor. Those .50 caliber sniper rifles can shoot through a cinder block, at least in the vid I saw. Clearly one of those would not be much affected even if it did hit a stud.

Well those are my thoughts on this. Now I'll leave it to others with greater knowledge/experience to fill in the gaps.

[Askold]

Page 144 of Twilight 2013 rulebook explains cover. Basically, if you hit your target but the location of the hit is behind cover, for example: you hit Badguy1 in the left leg and he is shooting from behind a window with only his upper body and head exposed.) you simply calculate the armour value of the cover and add it to the armour on Badguy1. Page 145 has armour value for typical building materials, sand bags, vehicles and other common materials.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Edit: *Yeah I know (now!) the question was for 2013 but the basics are similar enough*
Most full power rifle ammunition in military use will go through drywall, wood sidings and such like with ease and while some mid power rounds might not fully penetrate things such as cinder block, most can happily chew through if you hit the same general spot a few times (including even pistol ammo).

I don't recall what the specifics are in 1st Ed. but in 2nd Ed. if the target is partially obscured it's automatically one level of difficulty harder to hit. However, the Referee should also consider that if you see a head in a window, you pretty much know where their body is in relation to their head and so the shot probably shouldn't be penalized.
If the hit does succeed, then you have to determine what part of the body was hit and then if the round actually penetrated the cover.

This is the example given in the 2.2 rules - "For example, a character is under cover behind a tree. The referee decides that, since the character is firing a weapon, his or her head and right arm are exposed. If the PC is hit in the chest, the shot strikes the tree instead and provides an armor value of 12."

There are charts in the rules to determine the hit location of the target and the Armor Value of any cover they are behind plus how to determine if the round penetrated the cover and how much damage potential it has left, but I can't recall them offhand - unfortunately the PDF I have from Far Future has the page numbers cropped


Now if you're after some real world info to give you a feel for what can happen in regards to penetration, I can't rate this site, "The Box 'O Truth", highly enough. There's plenty of pages to go through but the guy who runs the site does nothing more than take various objects and shoots them with various types of ammo and photographs the results - these include wall material, wood boards, car bodies, padlocks, bulletproof glass and even sand. They also try to recover the projectiles to see what happened to them as they hit the test material.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

These guys on YouTube do similar stuff except they video it, this episode deals specifically with cinderblocks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYFrskJKye8

[Tegyrius]

This:

Originally Posted by Askold

Page 144 of Twilight 2013 rulebook explains cover. Basically, if you hit your target but the location of the hit is behind cover, for example: you hit Badguy1 in the left leg and he is shooting from behind a window with only his upper body and head exposed.) you simply calculate the armour value of the cover and add it to the armour on Badguy1. Page 145 has armour value for typical building materials, sand bags, vehicles and other common materials.

Excellent summary.

- C.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Michael Lewis

Or do you even bother and just say bullets won't go through the walls to improve player/npc survive ability?

Noooooo! If my GM took an approach that was that "cinematic" I'd pack up my dice and papers and go home.

[NanbanJim]

+1 for Box O Truth, that guy has the best retirement in the WORLD!

One thing to keep in mind is that we are modeling here, we are using aggregate systems. So keep in mind that a round which penetrates does not stay on course. Part of the armor value then can be understood to come from the deviation applied to the round (it would be silly to tack on a to-hit modifier elsewhere when you can do it elegantly from the armor rating)--yet another reason not to shoot from the window ledge, but from a little ways inside!

[Askold]

I think I would just set up some sandbags or metal plate behind the window and prop it up or even build some sort of frame to keep it there.

Actually I remember in the Defense forces there was a instructional video about fighting in urban enviroment and it specifically showed soldiers setting up some extra protection for the windows that were used as shooting positions.

[Michael Lewis]

Originally Posted by NanbanJim

+1 for Box O Truth, that guy has the best retirement in the WORLD!

One thing to keep in mind is that we are modeling here, we are using aggregate systems. So keep in mind that a round which penetrates does not stay on course. Part of the armor value then can be understood to come from the deviation applied to the round (it would be silly to tack on a to-hit modifier elsewhere when you can do it elegantly from the armor rating)--yet another reason not to shoot from the window ledge, but from a little ways inside!

But the rules says it does. Twilight 2300 anyway. If you score a hit, and that body part is behind cover, a rifle bullet is going to penetrate to hit with damage. Although the damage will be lessened.

[Sanjuro]

For setting up a machine gun nest in a building I was taught to put it in a hallway, firing through an internal door across the room and out the front of the building. That way you can use the internal walls as cover (this was described for older buildings with brick internal walls) and as support for sandbags etc.
You lose in field of fire, but win by having a site almost immune to grenade attack, and with a prepared escape route at the back.

[Michael Lewis]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro

For setting up a machine gun nest in a building I was taught to put it in a hallway, firing through an internal door across the room and out the front of the building. That way you can use the internal walls as cover (this was described for older buildings with brick internal walls) and as support for sandbags etc.
You lose in field of fire, but win by having a site almost immune to grenade attack, and with a prepared escape route at the back.

But then you couldn't see what you were shooting. ????

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by Michael Lewis

But then you couldn't see what you were shooting. ????

sure, you just have a narrow field of fire. In some cases it might work just fine - say when the door you're aiming through looks down a street - you effectively have the street covered, and you're back away from the front of the building, making return fire that much less effective.

If however, you have to cover a wide field or something similar, you wouldn't necessarily want to do this. It's all about the situation.

[NanbanJim]

Originally Posted by Michael Lewis

But the rules says it does. Twilight 2300 anyway. If you score a hit, and that body part is behind cover, a rifle bullet is going to penetrate to hit with damage. Although the damage will be lessened.

The rules say the body part takes damage, yes, but that itself is an aggregate system too. I think my point was really that you can explain a lot with an appeal to the limitations of granularity.

[pmulcahy11b]

Shooting through covers...isn't that what you do when you find your wife in bed with another man?

[Askold]

The one thing about shooting through cover that I love in the TW2013 system is that how little some things offer protection. Tables, cars (apart from motor), sheetrock walls... Ducking behind a wall inside a building only helps to hide your location, anyone who uses automatic weapons excessively can still ruin your day (if they feel like wasting some ammo and can guess your approximate location.)

[.45cultist]

If you can shoot through it, then it's concealment, not cover.