4th Economics 101

[RandyT0001]

Just started this process. Anybody have a more detailed, step-by-step, explanation of going through the process?

[mmartin798]

Wish I could help, but I don't think you are talking Keynesian economics here.

[RandyT0001]

I have read the examples on p.238 several times but I cannot determine for what purpose or process the multiplier in the Livestock and Aquaculture chart is used. If the author or contributor of that part of the book would explain that to me I would greatly appreciate it.

[mmartin798]

While I do not have 4th edition, I can venture a guess. Since active and efficient livestock and aquaculture, i.e. cattle ranching and fishing, gives a good amount of food for a smallish investment of human labor you get more man hours for things like manufacturing and the like. Therefore, you get a multiplier for those. But it is just a guess.

Ok, a little more explanation of my guess may be in order. A tribe of people need to expend a certain amount of effort procuring basic food, water and shelter. If the activities they use are really bad hunter/gatherer, then all their work goes into that and nothing for economic growth. So Frank, Tom, Harry, Lisa and Mary are a tribe and all are out gathering food and can only serve their needs. Let's say Frank learns to Fish and does so very well. Now Frank is able to get enough food so that Harry and Lisa don't have to do anything for the tribe to survive. This lets Harry and Lisa to start making and stringing clay beads into jewelry. Now they have something the tribe can trade because Frank is able to fish and feed more of the tribe. Does that help at all?

[bobcat]

also lacking 4E at the moment but to expand on what mmartin said lets say i've got a small group of 10 survivors. if we're trying to survive by hunter/gatherer means we have to spend the majority of our time on that. this limits the time we can spend on shelter and other needs. if we have livestock we have more free time to spend on other tasks and are more readily able to spend time/effort/resources for additional pursuits. this allows us to increase our agricultural base to include more crops/livestock which further reduces the amount of time and resources we have to dedicate solely to survival allowing further economic growth and (i'm not sure if this is even in the game) increases the likelihood of making our own technological advancement or salvaging pre-doomsday tech.

granted if you permit population growth from surrounding groups of survivors moving in and increased birthrates due to excess free time you can almost achieve an exponential growth effect economically and technologically.

again however this is just how i've been wargaming the settlement developments in my games and may or may not apply to 4E. its just keynesian macroeconomics dumbed down to fewer variables so i don't go insane with my plotting.

[bobcat]

and now that i think about it i have a good idea for a GM tool to hack together in Java.

[RandyT0001]

Bump

Does anybody have a more detailed step by step process or flow chart for this section in the rule book? The examples do not flow from one to the next segment very well, there are too many gaps to follow the process.

[ArmySGT.]

Worker provides a base 2000 hours per year. The labor pool is 2/3 of the population to account for those to young, old, or disabled to be part of the pool.

Determine number of laborers.

Determine food requirements.... 300 kg wheat (or equivalent), 50 kg meat, and 150 L of milk (or dairy products) per person, per year.

100 villagers requires 100 x 300 kg or 30,000 kilograms of wheat (or equivalents).
100 x 50kg or 5000 Kg of meat

100 x 150 L or 15,000 liter of milk ( or dairy products)

Crop yield multipliers are crops other than wheat; corn is x2 of wheat, or yields 600 kg equivalent of wheat per year, per hectare.

The amount of grain to feed livestock is subtracted from the total out put...... it is part of the cost for meat and milk.

Tech level is key to how much is produced and how much land to do it.

Tech level D 40 (50) or 40 hours for 50 hectares. Yield at Tech level D is 1300 kg per hectare or enough for 4.3 persons per year.

30,000 / 1300 is 23.08 hectares of wheat. 23.08 x 40 = 923.2 hours of labor for the year.

For the animals ........ I am still baffled.

[ArmySGT.]

The base units and the input units is very confusing..... It comes in at the end apparently ......

What I don't understand is does it mean the amount of labor it took to get to that output (since the village foundation) or the amount per year to get that output?

[ArmySGT.]

I asked Chris Garland through the MP facebook page if an economics tutorial could be made and posted to Youtube. He wrote back that he will speak with the author of that section.

Could everyone else like or comment on that so it shows some interest from the fan base?

[robj3]

Hello all.

I wrote the Economics chapter but didn't have a chance to edit it for clarity.
I agree that the final text is far from clear.

In overview:
Start with the settlement's Tech Level and population.
Calculate the size of the labor pool.
Distribute workers into agriculture, mining/mfg/construction, distribution, services.

Work through each sector.
- how do I feed the population with the farmers available?
- how do I produce the raw materials the community needs?
- how is agricultural and factory product distributed?
- how are service workers distributed?
- how much energy is required to run everything?
- where does everyone live?


RandyT0001 wrote:

I have read the examples on p.238 several times but I cannot determine for what purpose or process the multiplier in the Livestock and Aquaculture chart is used.

It is the same as that used for other forms of crops. If wheat is 1, milk is 1/12.

Example:
At tech level E, each hectare allocated to wheat will produce 1,300kg per year.
If I run dairy cattle, that hectare will produce 1300/12 ~ 108kg of milk per year. But I'm going to need more area than that to run a cow.

ArmySGT wrote:

For the animals ........ I am still baffled.

For the 100 person village, you need to produce 5,000kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per year.

15,000L milk at Tech Levels A-C:
~83 hectares of pasture, requiring 15,000kg of corn equivalent feed.

5,000kg meat at Tech Levels A-C:
eggs - ~33 hectares for egg-laying chickens which need 15,000kg of feed
*poultry - ~43.5 hectares for broilers which need 12,500kg of feed
*pork/mutton - 100 hectares for pigs/sheep which need 30,000kg of feed
*beef - 200 hectares for cattle which need 65,000kg feed
*lamb - ~278 hectares for lambs which need 85,000kg feed
*shellfish - ~2.3 hectares which need 15,000kg of feed
*fish - 23 hectares which need 15,000kg feed

* This is for what is going to be eaten that year. Typically, 1/10 of a herd/flock is eaten each year.

Raising livestock needs a lot of land and food at any tech level.
Labor requirement falls away quickly with higher tech levels.
See the 'Tech Level Multiplier' table on p.236 (if my proof copy is the same as the final print).

What I don't understand is does it mean the amount of labor it took to get to that output (since the village foundation) or the amount per year to get that output?

Each worker has a base and input cost "expressed in labor years per worker at that tech level" (p.237).

The base and input cost varies with industrial sector - it is meant to represent the resources required to maintain productivity at that tech level.
Base is initial capital cost, inputs are annual maintenance, fuel etc. cost.

So a single Tech A farmer can manage 143 hectares of wheat in a 2,000 hour labor year, producing 314,600kg of wheat. This farmer needs 40 Tech A-years worth of equipment with annual costs of 3 Tech A-years worth of fuel, parts, pesticide, etc.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by robj3

Hello all.

I wrote the Economics chapter but didn't have a chance to edit it for clarity.
I agree that the final text is far from clear.

First let me say, thank you very much for taking your time to explain this here. Have you written a flow chart, or any step by step tutorials, for this economics section? I think it is one of the more important tools in the new edition.

Originally Posted by robj3

In overview:
Start with the settlement's Tech Level and population.

Is this something the PD determines on his / her own? I did not see a min/max for this, or does the economics at the end determine if the population can support itself?

Originally Posted by robj3

Calculate the size of the labor pool.
Distribute workers into agriculture, mining/mfg/construction, distribution, services.

This is based on the percentages on page 237, correct? Everything is lumped under farmers but, raising livestock is a complete other vocation.
I realize that farmers often have livestock in addition to their crops, this is however more like a side job or alternate revenue. For a rancher or dairy operator the livestock is all the work, making for long days on its own….. I milked cows one summer. Seven days a week, twice a day, no days off. Not my fondest memory but, the pay was sweet for a young man.

Originally Posted by robj3

Work through each sector.
- how do I feed the population with the farmers available?
- how do I produce the raw materials the community needs?
- how is agricultural and factory product distributed?
- how are service workers distributed?
- how much energy is required to run everything?
- where does everyone live?

I understood these were all modifiers….. So it begins with the total yearly hours for all farmers combined, as a base 2000 hours per farmer, without community traits.
One farmer = 2000, Ten farmers = 20,000

Can you explain how to determine the base value for inputs?

The necessities for pesticide, fuel, feed, material, etc; I understood what this was for but, not how to determine the base cost of inputs.
Pesticide and fuel would come from petrochemicals, while feed for livestock is diverted from feed (cereals) for humans. Then the other stuff; is input something that must be deducted from the village output? So that there is enough to maintain, or expand the following year?
The inputs have to be significantly different by tech level, yes?

Originally Posted by robj3

RandyT0001 wrote:
It is the same as that used for other forms of crops. If wheat is 1, milk is 1/12.

Example:
At tech level E, each hectare allocated to wheat will produce 1,300kg per year.
If I run dairy cattle, that hectare will produce 1300/12 ~ 108kg of milk per year. But I'm going to need more area than that to run a cow.

Should the PD determine the food requirements for the village, and all the village livestock, then determine what the farmers are producing? That is how I would go about it. After everyone is fed, then I can determine who is growing a surplus for trade, or luxury items like tobacco.

The other thing is the time to yield……… I fully understand that a Tech A or B farmer on a tractor is going to out produce the lower tech levels. What effect does this have on village creation? Less farmers dedicated to feeding the population / livestock, and more producing surpluses for trade? Is this meant as a way to divert excess farmers back over to other trades? The base number of hours per year / hours per hectare yield simply means more hectares can be worked by one farmer? Am I reading to much into this?

Originally Posted by robj3

ArmySGT wrote:
For the 100 person village, you need to produce 5,000kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per year.

15,000L milk at Tech Levels A-C:
~83 hectares of pasture, requiring 15,000kg of corn equivalent feed.

5,000kg meat at Tech Levels A-C:
eggs - ~33 hectares for egg-laying chickens which need 15,000kg of feed
*poultry - ~43.5 hectares for broilers which need 12,500kg of feed
*pork/mutton - 100 hectares for pigs/sheep which need 30,000kg of feed
*beef - 200 hectares for cattle which need 65,000kg feed
*lamb - ~278 hectares for lambs which need 85,000kg feed
*shellfish - ~2.3 hectares which need 15,000kg of feed
*fish - 23 hectares which need 15,000kg feed

15,000 kg of corn divided by the modifier for the corn yield at that tech level? This determines how many farmers are diverted to cattle feed?

Does this come from the base cost + inputs? Is this what has to be at a minimum, or a minimum plus seed for the next year? Wheat and Milk are the base of the food chain for people, and corn is the base for livestock? Should the PD be trying to vary the meat types? Wouldn’t rabbit, turkeys, and goats make more sense at lower tech levels without refrigeration and means to process a large carcass? Salt….. Animals need it, people need it, picking, smoking, and drying foods for preservation of meats need it. How would this factor into base cost and inputs? Salt may be easy for a village by the sea or in Utah, someplace is can be mined, others salt may be very precious indeed.

Originally Posted by robj3

* This is for what is going to be eaten that year. Typically, 1/10 of a herd/flock is eaten each year.

Raising livestock needs a lot of land and food at any tech level.
Labor requirement falls away quickly with higher tech levels.
See the 'Tech Level Multiplier' table on p.236 (if my proof copy is the same as the final print).

Is the other 9/10ths part of the input or over and above the input for the succeeding year?

Originally Posted by robj3

Each worker has a base and input cost "expressed in labor years per worker at that tech level" (p.237).

The base and input cost varies with industrial sector - it is meant to represent the resources required to maintain productivity at that tech level.
Base is initial capital cost, inputs are annual maintenance, fuel etc. cost.

So a single Tech A farmer can manage 143 hectares of wheat in a 2,000 hour labor year, producing 314,600kg of wheat. This farmer needs 40 Tech A-years worth of equipment with annual costs of 3 Tech A-years worth of fuel, parts, pesticide, etc.

I think how to determine the inputs went over my head. Are inputs equal to and in addition to labor years?

[RandyT0001]

So I am submitting this community to be used as an example for Robj3 to use in order to demonstrate the step-by-step process of creating a community. It is the largest town within the town classification.

Summerset, Kentucky in Pulaski County
Summerset sustains itself with food and meat. It exports opiates to New Manhattan. Summerset is the single source for tires for the Free State’s M35 trucks, P-47 planes and the V300 vehicles. The tire plant also exports tires for other trucks and cars used within the Free State. Summerset also exports lumber to New Manhattan to supply its building boom.

Tech level: C
Population: 5,000
Compassion, Discipline, Curiosity, and Organization at 50%
Labor force: 2,222
Agriculture: 222
Mining, etc.: 666
Distribution: 556
Other Services: 778

Agriculture
Required Food: 1,500,000kg
Cabbages, etc.: 300,000kg
Potatoes, etc.: 300,000kg
Corn: 300,000kg
Apples, Beans, etc.: 300,000kg
Wheat, Peanuts, etc.: 300,000kg
Required Meat: 50kg
Poultry: 40kg
Beef: 10kg
Opiates: (1-10 farmers worth?)

Mining, etc.
Extraction
Forestry – Must produce at least 365 tons per year of lumber for export. It also must produce 1/4 of the community’s yearly inputs.
Manufacturing
Refinery, coal to liquid plant – Must provide 800 barrels of oil per year for tire production. It must provide enough coke to serve as coal for the community’s power plant. It also must produce 1/4 of the community’s yearly inputs. The necessary coal is imported.
Tire plant – Must produce 1000 tons of tires for export per year.
Food processing - Must provide enough capacity to process 750 tons of food per year.
Workshop, general - It also must produce 1/2 of the community’s yearly inputs and that which is required for the manufacture of tires.

Distribution
Services and Government
Farms
Forestry
Community trade

Other Services
Services and Government

Education
Students: 1,250
Primary: 875
Secondary: 250
Tertiary: 40
Teachers:
(Structures, transportation?)

Health Care, etc.
Firefighter (full time):
Ambulance:
Doctor:
Dentist:
Nurse:
Pharmacist:
Beds:
(Structures?)

Law Enforcement and Military (quiet/mature)
Judiciary:
Police:
Soldiers:

Energy and Infrastructure
Housing: Density of 25 people per hectare
Transportation Network: Must have at least one rail line through the main town for importation of coal and exportation of tires, lumber and opiates.
Energy: Coal power plant burning coke from refinery.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by robj3

In overview:
Start with the settlement's Tech Level and population.
Calculate the size of the labor pool.
Distribute workers into agriculture, mining/mfg/construction, distribution, services.

Tech Level E.. Late Steam 1880s (pg 208)
Large Settlement 300 persons
Organization. 60% Leadership 30% Domain 3km2 per person 900 km2 (Pg 212)
Community trait None (pg214)
Labor pool: 47% under 15, 50% 15-64, 3% over 64%, 141, 150, 9 (pg 236)
Labor pool = 150 persons 15-64 / .66 = 99 Laborers
2000 labor hours per worker = 198, 000. Tech level E multiplier 4. 198000*4= 792,000 labor hours per year. (Pg 236)

Originally Posted by robj3

Work through each sector.

Tech level E…. Farming 11-25, Miners, Makers, Builders 25, Deliverers 20, Services (32+. 99*0.25= 25, 99*0.25=25, 99*0.25 =25,99*0.32=32)
25+25+25+32= 104 (more workers needed than currently available…. Depending on farms output this may balance out with a reduction in agriculture workers. (Pg 237)

Originally Posted by robj3

- how do I feed the population with the farmers available?

Agriculture Sector Tech level E. 80 hours per 25 Hectares per farmer (2khours per farmer per year)
Yield for Tech level E. 1300 kg wheat per hectare…. Supporting 4.3 persons base cost 6, input 1 (WTF is the explanation for base cost and input? Description in the rule book is lacking. Where do you use this? What are the modifiers per tech level?)
Can produce 900Km2 = 90,000 hectares (1 hectare = 10k meters2) One person requires 300kg equivalent per year. Village needs 90,000 Kg equivalent of wheat for 300 persons. 300*300=90000 (pg 237)
25 farmers with 25 hectares apiece per year equals 625 Hectares in farmland. (Pg 237) 812,500 kg of wheat per year possible; enough to feed 2708 persons annually. Outputs from other crops have their own modifiers (Pg237) 90,000kg wheat/1300Kg per hectare = 69 hectares = 2.76 or 3 farmers to produce the minimum wheat requirement at tech level E for 300 person.
Consumption = 50Kg meat and 150L milk per person per year.
Village need 300*50kg meat per person, per year, or 15,000 kg of meat produced. Village needs 300*150 liters of milk per person, per year, or 45,000 liters consumed as milk, cheese, butter, etc.
Milk = 180kg per hectare. 45000/180= 250 hectares to produce 45K liters with 2-10 hectares per animal, assuming 10 hectares for a cow and 2 hectares for a dairy goat.
This is where I quit again……. The table on (pg 238) has no explanation for the production, amounts per hectare, or why this spins off into man hours (to determine number of farmers) so one can eventually determine the kilograms per food type to feed the village.

So I can never get past agriculture to eventually get on to any of the other Economic sectors in determining whether a village is functioning or starving.

Originally Posted by robj3

- how do I produce the raw materials the community needs?

Originally Posted by robj3

- how is agricultural and factory product distributed?

Originally Posted by robj3

- how are service workers distributed?

Originally Posted by robj3

- how much energy is required to run everything?

Originally Posted by robj3

- where does everyone live?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

(WTF is the explanation for base cost and input? Description in the rule book is lacking. Where do you use this? What are the modifiers per tech level?)

My reading is that the base cost is used when establishing or expanding a farm for things like additional harnesses, tractors, buildings, etc. The input cost is recurring for things like seeds, fertilizer, etc. So it you are just building a settlement under the assumption it is functioning normally, you really can ignore all the base costs, since those would have already been paid, and just use the input costs to determine the overhead of running the farms in this case. Same would hold true for all the industrial and energy sectors.

All the descriptions of base cost talk about durable equipment and personnel training. That is why if the settlement is assumed to be stable, you can ignore those. If there was a plague or something that wiped out people, equipment or structures, the base costs would have to be paid again. At least that is how I read it.

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

My reading is that the base cost is used when establishing or expanding a farm for things like additional harnesses, tractors, buildings, etc. The input cost is recurring for things like seeds, fertilizer, etc. So it you are just building a settlement under the assumption it is functioning normally, you really can ignore all the base costs, since those would have already been paid, and just use the input costs to determine the overhead of running the farms in this case. Same would hold true for all the industrial and energy sectors.

All the descriptions of base cost talk about durable equipment and personnel training. That is why if the settlement is assumed to be stable, you can ignore those. If there was a plague or something that wiped out people, equipment or structures, the base costs would have to be paid again. At least that is how I read it.

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

This is what I mean..... the Base costs and the Input costs are useless in the initial determination of what is produced by how many for how much time.

Except... that it keeps getting referenced because you have to determine man hours to determine the number of laborers necessary for the production.

What gets me...... your not going to have a village that hasn't paid the base cost to build the agriculture.... they would have starved and died or disbanded.

[RandyT0001]

It does not work. It never did work. The person that wrote it has not tried to explain it. He's never going to explain it in a level of detail that people can emulate. He cannot explain it because it is a broken system.

Even if you did figure some way to make some sense out of it and create a community based on those guidelines/rules, there is nothing in the book that explains how the information is to be used to interact within the game's other material and/or the PC's.

IMO

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

It does not work. It never did work. The person that wrote it has not tried to explain it. He's never going to explain it in a level of detail that people can emulate. He cannot explain it because it is a broken system.

Even if you did figure some way to make some sense out of it and create a community based on those guidelines/rules, there is nothing in the book that explains how the information is to be used to interact within the game's other material and/or the PC's.

IMO

Posted such on the Morrow Project Facebook page.... maybe you and some others could do the same and we can get Chris Garland and Rob O'Connor to address this.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

My reading is that the base cost is used when establishing or expanding a farm for things like additional harnesses, tractors, buildings, etc. The input cost is recurring for things like seeds, fertilizer, etc. So it you are just building a settlement under the assumption it is functioning normally, you really can ignore all the base costs, since those would have already been paid, and just use the input costs to determine the overhead of running the farms in this case. Same would hold true for all the industrial and energy sectors.

All the descriptions of base cost talk about durable equipment and personnel training. That is why if the settlement is assumed to be stable, you can ignore those. If there was a plague or something that wiped out people, equipment or structures, the base costs would have to be paid again. At least that is how I read it.

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

This gets two sentences to explain what they are for.... Then you figure out...... never to need it.. Ridiculous. (Pg 237)

[mmartin798]

I am in the middle of building a spreadsheet to do all these calculations. So far using it, I have been able to get the same numbers as the examples, but I am only done with the agricultural part. The way it works best is to just start with how much food do the farmers need to produce. The number used is 300kg of grain equivalent and 150kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per person. In Sgt.'s example, 90,000kg of wheat and 45,000kg of meat.

Now let's start with the grain. Tech level E produces 1300kg per hectare. Ignore the 4.3 as that is just another way to look at the same number that is more confusing for our purposes. 90,000kg grain requires 69.23H to grow. Now at tech level E, each hectare take 80 hours annually, giving 5,538.4 hours. Divide this by 2000 man hours per year and we require 3 farmers to support the peoples grain requirements.

You do the same thing for the livestock, only you do need to figure that you keep a portion around for breeding increasing the total amount of meat on the hoof. Once you know how much meat you need, you figure out how much corn is needed and repeat the processes for people above. If calculating for corn, remember the crop multiplier, since cultivating corn generates twice the weight per hectare as wheat.

This process duplicated all the examples for ag, so I kind of trust it.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

This gets two sentences to explain what they are for.... Then you figure out...... never to need it.. Ridiculous. (Pg 237)

I wouldn't say you never need it. You just don't need it to start. Assume your TL E settlement has some bandits or a band of mercenaries that come through, take some food and then raze half the farm land. To rebuild those farm lands, you need to take the base cost and multiply by the lands lost to determine how many man hours to rebuild. You might have to reduce your iron output for a while to get the crops back. So the base cost has use, but not for building your initial settlement.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

I am in the middle of building a spreadsheet to do all these calculations. So far using it, I have been able to get the same numbers as the examples, but I am only done with the agricultural part. The way it works best is to just start with how much food do the farmers need to produce. The number used is 300kg of grain equivalent and 150kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per person. In Sgt.'s example, 90,000kg of wheat and 45,000kg of meat.

Now let's start with the grain. Tech level E produces 1300kg per hectare. Ignore the 4.3 as that is just another way to look at the same number that is more confusing for our purposes. 90,000kg grain requires 69.23H to grow. Now at tech level E, each hectare take 80 hours annually, giving 5,538.4 hours. Divide this by 2000 man hours per year and we require 3 farmers to support the peoples grain requirements.

You do the same thing for the livestock, only you do need to figure that you keep a portion around for breeding increasing the total amount of meat on the hoof. Once you know how much meat you need, you figure out how much corn is needed and repeat the processes for people above. If calculating for corn, remember the crop multiplier, since cultivating corn generates twice the weight per hectare as wheat.

This process duplicated all the examples for ag, so I kind of trust it.

Could you demonstrate in some examples? I am trying the process over completely with a Tech E homestead of 10 persons.... smaller more manageable calculations.

[ArmySGT.]

Farmstead…. Single family plus farm hands…. Tech level E (late steam) (Pg 208)…. 10 persons.
Domain equals 0.5km2 per person 10*0.5 = 5Km2
This family homestead comprises 5Km2 of land supporting 10 persons and livestock.

Labor Pool Labor pool: 47% under 15, 50% 15-64, 3% over 64%, 141, 150, 9 (pg 236)
10*0.47= 4.7, 10*0.50=5, 10*0.03= 0.3
5 adults, and five children.
Labor year = 2000 hours for each adult. 5*2000 = 10,000 labor hours. Tech level E modifier for this is 4. 10000*4=40000
The farmstead with implements and decent knowledge averages 40,000 man hours per year. (Pg 236)
Division of labor (Pg 237)……. Tech Level E…. Agriculture 11-25%, Mining/Manufacturing/Construction 25%, Distribution 20%, other Services 32%
5*0.25= 1.25, 5*0.25=1.25, 5*0.20=1, 5*0.32 = 1.6 = 5.1 Labors….. Problem…. One of the children is now farming.
One farmer, one builder, one delivery, one caretaker accounted for, fifth person? We will see if we need another adult in another job if the system will yield results.
Feeding one person equals 300Kg equivalent of wheat(Pg 237). 10x300kg equals 3000 kgs to feed the homestead. (Pg 237). People need 50 kilograms of meat and 150 liters of milk (dairy products) per year.
10*50=500Kg and 10*150=1500L …….. though this is not explained if this is in addition to the 300 Kg of wheat or substitutes for all or in part……. I can’t determine from the text.
So the Homestead needs 3000kgs of Wheat, 500 Kgs of Meat, and 1500L of milk. Per year to feed the inhabitants adequately, I think.
Confusing bit….. Agricultural Sector table (Pg 237)… Tech level E…. Time per Hectare for a Tech level E farmer is 80(25) 80 hours per hectare and a farmer does 25 hectares in one labor year.

Except later in text farmers are farming 46 hectares for 1840 hours… baffled… is 25 hectares a limit that is then ignored? Is this meant to mean that at Tech Level E a farmer can work 25 hectares in 80 hours?
Next is yield….. Tech level E is 1300kg per hectare and supports 4.3 persons on that hectare (302.3kgs per person). Why does the persons per hectare matter? It isn’t used in any of the following calculations.
3000Kg/1300kg = 2.3 Hectares needed for just wheat. Domain equals 5KM2 or 500 hectares….. so space is covered.
3000kgs/1300kg = 2.3 hectares…. 2.3 = 160hours ( our farmer has it easy!)
On this table is featured the Base Cost and the Input cost….. and no reason why you need to calculate this.
Live stock and Aquaculture… (Pg 238)
You have an average yield per hectare…. Then a modifier….. to me ….. these contradict each other..
I can use the average and get one sum or the modifier and get another sum…..
So is it 180 liter per hectare with an animal using 2-10 hectares for pasture; or is the modifier of whatever the tech level produces….. Tech Level E is 1300Kg per hectare… 1/12 of this is 108kg or liter of milk with an animal using 2-10 hectares….. I am assuming (I know!) the 2 hectares is a milk goat and 10 hectares is a milk cow.
So which one?
Then, there is the corn equivalent ( corn modifier is 2) at Tech level E this would be 2600Kg of corn per hectare. …… so this is the corn needed to feed animals in grain to have them produce…… Does this come out of the farmers output or does there need to be another farmer..... See where the farmers production limit has produced something confusing?
So… Um milk cows. Do I have one or two?
The homestead needs 1500L of milk for a year…. This could mean 1500/180=8.3 hectares…. Or 13.8 hectares… Does the modifier 1/12 affect the manhours? Is it 80 (Tech E) divided by 1/12? Or is it still 80 hours per hectare? I think it would still be the full time requirement… so. 664 hours for 8.3 hectares or 1104 hours for 13.8 hectares. (farmer is a little busier (824 hours or 1264 hours)
Meat. The Homestead requires 500kgs of meat per year to feed the 10 persons.
Beef = 25kg average or 1/88 the equivalent of wheat per hectare.. 1300*(1/88) or 1300*0.011 or 14.3kg per hectare…… again which is it? 500kgs / 25kg per hectare equals 20 hectares of pastured beef or 500/14.3kg per hectare equals 34.9 hectares. 80hrs*20= 1600 and 80*34.9=2792 (our farmers is at either at 2424 labor hours or 4056 hours)

But, wait the animals need grain… milk needs 1kg of corn per liter produced and beef needs 13 kgs of corn per kilo of meat. So the homestead must produce 1500kg of corn for milk cows and 6500 kgs of corn for beef cattle. At tech level E…. 1300kg per hectare with a x2 modifier for corn. Or 2600kgs per hectare. 1500 + 6500 = 8000 kgs of corn required. 8000/2600= 3.07 hectares or 245.6 labor hours.
( the farmer is now at 2669.6 or 4301.6 labor hours.)

So we need 1.33 farmers or 2.15 farmers….. to feed the Home stead.

That would mean that this Homestead would have 2 farmer, one house wife, one ranch hand fixing everything, and one ranch hand in Delivery.

[mmartin798]

Sure. I just realized I quoted some wrong number for the meat anyway, so I will correct that here.

I will assume no exceptional attributes, so this is where we start:

Tech Level (TL): E
Population: 10
Volatile: 50%
Extrovert: 50%
Compassion: 50%
Discipline: 50%
Curious: 50%
Organization: 50%

The available labor pool is 2/3 of 50% of 10, or 3 people. At 2000 man-hours per year, we have 6000 hours available.

To feed 10 people, we need 3000kg of wheat and 500kg of meat.

At TL E, each hectare yields 1300kg of wheat per year and takes 80 hours per hectare to work and harvest. So we need 3000/1300, or 1.36 hectares of land to provide the people's wheat. This require 108.8 hours, so less than one farmer so far.

Let's assume they keep chickens, since they take up less space than beef. We assume they only eat 10% of the flock each year. So to get the 500kg of meat, we need 500/115 hectare of land, or 4.35 hectares for their coop and "grazing" area. They grow corn to feed the chickens. The amount of corn is 2.5*500/2 (the corn multiplier) or 625 kg wheat equivalents. But since only 10% of the flock is eaten, we need to multiply that by 10, giving 6250kg. Again, TL E produces 1300 kg/hectare, we need 6250/1300, or 4.8 hectares to grow the corn on. We add the two areas together, 4.35+4.80, to give 9.15 hectares. At TL E, each hectare takes 80 hours, so we need 9.15*80 or 732 man-hours per year for the chickens and their feed.

So to feed the settlement, we need to supply 841 man-hours, which is still one farmer. We now add the inputs for one person in the ag sector at TL E, which is 2000. The total man-hours to feed this settlement is 2841.

[mmartin798]

The biggest problem is the use of different units all the time. The calculations really need to be calculated in hours, but they keep quoting labor years. It really messes things up.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

So we need 3000/1300, or 1.36 hectares of land to provide the people's wheat. This require 108.8 hours, so less than one farmer so far.

3000/1300=2.307 ........ Wouldn't that be 2.3 Hectares... 80*2.3= 184 labor hours?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

The biggest problem is the use of different units all the time. The calculations really need to be calculated in hours, but they keep quoting labor years. It really messes things up.

The livestock table uses hectares for pasture on some animals and square meters for other animals. another area they should have stayed with one unit.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

3000/1300=2.307 ........ Wouldn't that be 2.3 Hectares... 80*2.3= 184 labor hours?

You are quite correct. So that gives us... 916 man-hours and we will need 2000 man-hours of inputs since that is still one farmer.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

They grow corn to feed the chickens. The amount of corn is 2.5*500/2 (the corn multiplier) or 625 kg wheat equivalents. But since only 10% of the flock is eaten, we need to multiply that by 10, giving 6250kg. Again, TL E produces 1300 kg/hectare, we need 6250/1300, or 4.8 hectares to grow the corn on. We add the two areas together, 4.35+4.80, to give 9.15 hectares. At TL E, each hectare takes 80 hours, so we need 9.15*80 or 732 man-hours per year for the chickens and their feed.

Shouldn't this be 2.5*500*2=2500 Kg of corn? 1300kg per hectare with x2 for corn = 2600kg produced for one hectare of corn. 2500 kg of corn for 10% of the flock?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Shouldn't this be 2.5*500*2=2500 Kg of corn? 1300kg per hectare with x2 for corn = 2600kg produced for one hectare of corn. 2500 kg of corn for 10% of the flock?

No, this is another area where the text is confusing. Let me rephrase things to make it clearer. Just like explosives have an RE value where C4 is 1, so too does crop yield have a Yield Effectiveness (YE) value where wheat is 1. Replace crop multiplier with YE and the calculations are the same. 1 of wheat = 0.5 of corn = 100 of cocaine.

So if I need x hectares for 50kg of wheat, I need 0.5x hectares for 50kg of corn and 100x hectares for 50kg of cocaine. I hope that is clearer.