The Best That Never Was 2 (Prototypes)

[Draq]

So I'm sure many of you are very familiar with the extensive site : http://www.pmulcahy.com/PDFs/pdf_page.htm. while scrolling through the best vehicles that never were section, I was surprised by the lack of one particular tank. (I know pmulcahy is very busy). http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_279 i would love to see this tank fleshed out in t2k. Anybody have any other suggestions?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think the biggest problem with Object 279 is that there wasn't enough technical info available to calculate some of the game data even a few years ago but now that there is enough info, it's recognized as being a dead end for tank design.
However I'd still like to see it given some game stats

Other vehicles I'd like to see are from about the same period of time (the mid 1940s to the early 1970s) as there were number of vehicles designed or in service that are little known and are almost completely absent from any games (not just RPGs)
For example: -
The Canadian Bobcat APC (particularly as it was also being considered for a light tank by fitting it with the turret from the Scorpion light tank and as a carriage for a self-propelled gun).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobcat_...nel_carrier%29

No pics on the wiki page unfortunately so here's what it looked like.


The Nazi Germany Vollkettenaufklarer 38(t) Kätzchen APC
http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/Katzchen.htm
http://tasmancave.blogspot.com.au/20...zchen-apc.html

The West German Lkw (truck) 0.75t Borgward B2000 as
1. Borgward B2000 A/O Kübelwagen - unarmoured wheeled personnel carrier
2. Borgward B2000 A/O Pritsche - general service (GS) truck
The GS variant apparently served up to the mid 1970s.
Google translate page
http://translate.google.com.au/trans...0-75t_gl-a.htm

The Swiss Nahkampfkanone 2 tank destroyer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahkampfkanone_2
To really appreciate how ugly it is, check out this page
http://flickriver.com/photos/deckaru...7632533745483/

The Swiss MOWAG Taifun tank destroyer. I love the look of this vehicle despite how lightly armoured it was!
http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/07/11/j...-mowag-taifun/

The Swiss MOWAG Pirat IFV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowag_Pirat

The Swiss Saurer Tartaruga
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saurer_Tartaruga

The Hungarian 1 ton 4x4 truck Csepel 130
Simply because I really like the Dodge WC series of light trucks and the 130 was patterned on them.
Google translate page
http://translate.google.com.au/trans...0/&prev=search

The Japanese Toyota 2FQ-15 (which I believe was also known as the FQ-10 to FQ-15 series). Another vehicle patterned on a Dodge but this time the M37 model (although they seem to have made it ugly in the process!)
http://www.favcars.com/images-toyota...960-184854.htm
http://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/toyota-fq-15.87882/

The French ELC project
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELC_project
And again, a Google translate page
http://translate.google.com.au/trans...36&prev=search

The French AMX-50, much bigger brother to the AMX-13!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMX-50

The French Somua SM, a French take on the Nazi German Tiger II
More Google translate pages
https://translate.google.com/transla...D41&edit-text=

The French Lorraine 40t, while the Somua SM was inspired by the Tiger, the 40t was inspired by the Panther. And yes, it did use rubber tyres instead of steel for the running gear.
Another Google translate page
https://translate.google.com/transla...D36&edit-text=

And another set of French vehicles but a personal favourite of mine, the Hotchkiss-Rive EVEN ELC series (AKA as the Light Fighting Unit or LFU series).
http://www.jedsite.info/tanks-echo/e...lc-series.html
And the last Google translate page... I swear it's the last...
http://translate.google.com.au/trans...36&prev=search


Apologies for the heavy reliance on Google translate, unfortunately some of the vehicles here also feature in the game World Of Tanks. The web is dominated by pages devoted to representations in that game so I have to search on French language sites to get real world info!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Someone oughta send Mike Sparks a picture of that German personnel carrier and tell him his beloved Gavin was a product of Nazi science.

Talk about your beep-boop-short circuit moments

[Draq]

That's what I'm talking about. Now I have more vehicles to study. Thanx

[Cdnwolf]

Hey Stainless.... half the tanks you mentioned are actually in play on World of Tanks...

http://worldoftanks.com/encyclopedia/vehicles/

[pmulcahy11b]

Time to get to work...I was taking some time off T2K after finishing the UH-1 page (and it will be a page of its own).

[Draq]

Yay! Pmulcahy, you sir are awesome and with all the work you've done, a break was probably in order. Here's another: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM800..._Scout_Vehicle I'm so excited I love your work.

[Draq]

Also has the pdfs page been updated to reflect the site? I know you have lots of stuff to do. I have most of your PDFs on my phone, and I read them constantly.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Hey Draq, you're welcome I have a somewhat irregular interest in military vehicles and I've kind of become obsessed with proving the claim from The Greenhill Armoured Fighting Vehicles Data Book wrong. The front cover proclaims that it covers "Every armoured fighting vehicle that has ever existed" and before I'd even got through more than the first 50 pages I'd found three or four missing vehicles (like the Canadian Bobcat APC for example).
Although that focuses on armoured vehicles, I've checked for pretty much any little known military vehicle whether it was armoured or not.

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

Hey Stainless.... half the tanks you mentioned are actually in play on World of Tanks...

http://worldoftanks.com/encyclopedia/vehicles/

Yeah the people behind World Of Tanks (Wargaming Public Co. Ltd.) are very interested in all the various tanks that were kicking around in the 40s and 50s but as mentioned, I wanted to avoid relying solely on them because although they present some real world info, some of their vehicles are tweaked to better fit the game and the info would be misleading for anyone wanting to make T2k stats.

In fact Wargaming Public Co. are helping fund the restoration of the Panzer VIII Maus that's at the Kubinka tank museum and contributed to the recovery and restoration of the last known Dornier "flying pencil", the Do17 now displayed at RAF Cosford as well as paying for the education centre at the Bovington tank museum along with sponsoring the USS Iowa. The guys behind WoT love contemporary military history!

The best aspect of their inclusion of so many tanks of that era is that it's generated a bit more interest for those vehicles and a lot of info that was previously only available in Russian books is being put on the net (and sometimes even translated into English!)


And while I think about it, here's a few more vehicles I'd like to see...
The Jeep cabover truck from the US military M670 series (just because it's kinda quirky and normal jeeps bore the crap outta me)
http://olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_willys_fc.php
http://thefcconnection.com/dan_devries_1964_m-677.htm
http://thefcconnection.com/history_&...nformation.htm

The ZiL-4906 "Blue Bird" series, used for the locating and recovery of cosmonauts when they returned to Earth. Not strictly military but it's amphibious and just "kinda cool" (well, in my opinion!)
http://www.oldrussiancars.com/zil-4906-bluebird/

The Bedford Traclat (directly inspired by captured German SdKfz7 halftracks although the war ended before serious production was begun).
http://www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com/un...halftrack.html
http://www.militarymodelling.com/for...s.asp?th=21142

The Russian GAZ-62 in its early Dodge WC inspired version (before it became the cabover truck that went on to become the GAZ-66)
http://translate.googleusercontent.c...5z-c1E1kk5vx4w

[unkated]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I think the biggest problem with Object 279 is that there wasn't enough technical info available to calculate some of the game data even a few years ago but now that there is enough info, it's recognized as being a dead end for tank design.
However I'd still like to see it given some game stats

I found a number of pages, mostly in Russian, and came up with the attached via my magic spreadsheet.

The fuel tanks area a guess based on doubling the size of the internal tank, one in the rectangular chassis pieces between each pair of tracks (consumption seems about right). The gun is a guess based on existing guns (though I forgot to look at the SU-130, though that was not real either).

It would have done well driving across the open steppe covered in snow or (mild) mud, but God help it if it needed to maneuver - say turn a street corner or follow a curvy forested trail...

The fun part was that after they started testing the tank, Nikita Khrushchev cancelled all Soviet heavy tank development, limiting them to tanks weighing 37 tons. Why? Because otherwise, the Soviets would have to spend too much to rebuild roads and bridges (and probably railroads and rail bridges) to be able to transport them, much less produce them in the first place.

It does look futuristic, though.

Uncle Ted

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Uncle Ted, one word... "awesome".
And very neatly packaged onto one page with a great picture to boot!
The only other thing I can think of that may have been relevant was that the hull shape was (allegedly) helpful in resisting blast waves from nuclear weapons that may cause a vehicle to flip over.

[Draq]

I always imagined it used as a spearhead/blitzkrieg tank used for invasion in conjunction with nukes. Ship it via train or boat to the front lines, press the button, and start rolling them in. Maybe in an alternate timeline, they would've only built 10 or so. Sent 5 through Europe and 5 to america. Maybe also used it for some propaganda.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Draq

I always imagined it used as a spearhead/blitzkrieg tank used for invasion in conjunction with nukes. Ship it via train or boat to the front lines, press the button, and start rolling them in. Maybe in an alternate timeline, they would've only built 10 or so. Sent 5 through Europe and 5 to america. Maybe also used it for some propaganda.

You're not thinking Russian/Soviet.

Battalion per front! Employed in multiple spearheads at at least company strength. Soviet doctrine ran toward hit heavy in multiple spots, and strongly follow up on the spots that succeed.

When designed and the prototype was built, The Soviets had a lot of T-55s, backed by remaining T-34/85s.

On to the Rhine!

Uncle Ted

[Draq]

Touché

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Draq

Also has the pdfs page been updated to reflect the site? I know you have lots of stuff to do. I have most of your PDFs on my phone, and I read them constantly.

Yep.

[Draq]

.

[Draq]

Also stats for the Davey Crockett would be awesome, mostly for shiggles.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I thought someone had done stats for the Davey Crockett?

[Draq]

Very possible, but I haven't found it.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And I think I know why...
After checking a few old websites for game, I found a large number of them are dead links and I'm sure one of them had stats for the Davy Crockett.
Some of these sites must have been dead for a while because I can't even find them on the Internet Wayback Machine!
Show's how often I actually checked them haha.

[Draq]

So... While cruising through soviet-afghan war picture on pintrest I came across a picture of a leopard 1 with a t-72 turret... But I haven't been able to find any info at all. Seems like the kind of franken-tank that would be done in t2k... Providing its a feasible feat of mechanical engineering.

[Draq]

.

[Brit]

A quick Google of 'Leopold 1 T72 turret' brings up a 'colourised' version of that picture and some other sites / photos... none of which I have access too! The JED site is one of them.

I don't have the link anymore but I did once see a model somebody had made of a T72 hull with a Leopold 2 turret. The back story was that Poland had in, I believe , the 'real world' decided to update their tanks that way. It was said they then realised it was cheaper and easier to simply buy surplus Leopold 2 tanks from Germany and presumably sell on or scrap the T72s...

[Brit]

I couldn't find the site where I originally saw it but there are pictures here of I think the same model T72 with Leopold 2 turret. Very 'Twilight 2000'!

http://home.comcast.net/~mksheppard/.../PolishT72.htm


There is a bit more about the T72 / Leopold 1 hybrid here:

http://z12.invisionfree.com/ScaleMod...a/ar/t4035.htm

[Draq]

Thanx Brit

[Brit]

That's OK. Prowling the 'what if?' modelling websites is one of my interests...

Of course, having now properly read what you posted I now realise that it was a Leopold 1 hull with a T72 turret... so... is the opposite version therefore a possibility?

I have also seen photos of a 'testbed' tank which was an M48 (I think) with a Leopold 2 turret. Again, all very 'Twilight 2000'. And when the Merkava was being developed I think it's turret was first fitted to an M48 or M60 hull... or was it the other way around?

[Draq]

Or the m60 with a m1 turret

[Tegyrius]

I want an M1 with an M1 turret with a Bradley turret with an AAVP7A1 turret.

- C.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Draq

Also stats for the Davey Crockett would be awesome, mostly for shiggles.

I remember reading somewhere that the Nominal Yield was between 2 and 5 KiloTons. The older Nukes often had variable yield warheads (the old 8" with its variable yield package immediately comes to mind). If Ft Sill has its artillery museum on line, you may be able to find more info there. They have one on display. They also have "Atomic Anne," the first Nuke capable howitzer.

[ArmySGT.]