The Back up Prime

[ArmySGT.]

So we have discussed this a time or two in conjunction with Prime Base itself or how the Project would have functioned if the Plan had worked.

So let's take it in and off itself. I personally know of nothing canon related except to allude that a functional backup exists with the personnel in cryosleep.

Okay everyone is asleep but, how many personnel does PB2 have?

Is PB2 the same scale as PB1 or larger, or smaller?

Where geographically? PB1 is located in northen redacted to avoid a near miss by a soviet strike.

Is PB2 situated the same way? Is PB2 located on the opposite coast as PB1, or is it offshore in the U.S. Virgin islands, the Aleutians, or the Hawaiian chain?

Does PB2 also have a large contingent of non combatants?

More commo?

More production facilities?

More supplies?

Or is it the prototype that was moved to backup status with PB1 online? Essentially meaning it is at best half the scale of PB1.

Is it compromised? Is it knock offline by Soviets or suspicious elements of the U.S. forces striking out in all directions?

Does it have any capabilities that PB1 did not offensive, defensive, or purely reconstruction?

What kind of personnel were emplaced there?

Why hasn't Bruce himself awoken them?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Why hasn't Bruce himself awoken them?

This last part is answered in canon. He does not know where either one is.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Okay everyone is asleep but, how many personnel does PB2 have?

Is PB2 the same scale as PB1 or larger, or smaller?

I think in order to answer that question you would need to define what other function PB2 would fill with PB1 operational. For example, the XO of a ship takes over if the CO is incapacitated, but if the CO is fine then the XO still has a host of responsibilities. So what does PB2 do?

If you/we/canon doesn't have a solid answer, then I would suggest that PB2 is probably just a slightly beefed-up regional command base. Take a normal RCB and give it a bit better comms and planning staff, but not much - you would have to assume that resources could be better spent elsewhere.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Where geographically? PB1 is located in northen redacted to avoid a near miss by a soviet strike.

Is PB2 situated the same way? Is PB2 located on the opposite coast as PB1, or is it offshore in the U.S. Virgin islands, the Aleutians, or the Hawaiian chain?

I would assume opposite coast but mainland. You have regional command bases already, if you need an HQ off CONUS you probably don't have a Project to command any more.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Does PB2 also have a large contingent of non combatants?

Almost certainly not.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

More commo?

Than what? PB1? Absolutely not. But probably more than anyone else. Communications is probably the most vital requirement of command.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

More production facilities?

More supplies?

While PB1 probably would have seen some advantage in having so much collocated, spreading the rest out seems to make more sense. That is, the total risk to the Project is probably minimized by having PB2 be just a planning and coordination center, with as little else as possible.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Or is it the prototype that was moved to backup status with PB1 online? Essentially meaning it is at best half the scale of PB1.

I suppose it could be an outdated facility, but if so it would be likely stripped down and largely empty.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Is it compromised? Is it knock offline by Soviets or suspicious elements of the U.S. forces striking out in all directions?

Yes, it is compromised. One way or the other, the story of TMP requires that all national command elements are out of the way. If PB2 existed, it was either destroyed or kept from waking.

BTW, it is always worthwhile to remember that the creators (and continuers) of this game took a lot of liberties with "good sense planning" to create the gaming environment they desired. There are times when "this doesn't make sense" is the correct thing to say, and your choices are either to go off-canon or ignore the problem.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Does it have any capabilities that PB1 did not offensive, defensive, or purely reconstruction?

I cannot see why it would.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

What kind of personnel were emplaced there?

Assuming that it is a beefed-up regional command base, I would say it would have the best crew available for those bases, with a carefully set of skills that would allow them to rebuild PB1's most important functions on the skeletal framework of PB2. I would add a 3-9 man Phoenix contingent as well - it always bugged me that Phoenix would be in one location, those guys would have known how ridiculous a risk that was, having at least one other Phoenix group here makes sense to me.

[mmartin798]

As I was making a delightful grilled turkey, ham and cheese for my wife, I kept thinking about this and some other odd thoughts crept in. We have to assume that the Back-up Prime was in the event of a catastrophic failure at Prime. Based on that assumption, it is likely that Project Planners with intimate knowledge of the restoration plan would be there. Then there is that problem with the Counsel of Tomorrow and their families. People that sacrificed so much for the Project, we cannot assume they would be left out to die.

So based on those assumptions, Back-up Prime might be the base where the Counsel was to sleep out the war with the planners with two objectives. Wake up when restoration is well underway to the cheering of a grateful nation or to try and patch together some kind of restoration given the first plan failed for some reason by working with what is left.

This still has a few gaping holes. If this were the case, then Prime can wake up Back-up Prime anytime with the appropriate code. But how does it wake up in the event of a failure? Was it suppose to just automatically wake them up 20 years later assuming a problem was severe enough to not allow Prime to wake them? If so, what happen to that clock? Was it a second disaster or sabotage?

But to Sgt's questions, I see the Back-up Prime as smaller and designed to coordinate pieces rather than be a supply and support base. Prime Base was meant to monitor and record events and then to gather intel and activate bases. The Back-up had no one awake to monitor, so they are relying on either the data sent to them by Prime or whatever they can gather for themselves. If we assume that it is the Counsel and their families, there would likely be a large(ish) MARS contingent for protection or insurgency to try and free up otherwise isolated or harassed teams.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I think in order to answer that question you would need to define what other function PB2 would fill with PB1 operational. For example, the XO of a ship takes over if the CO is incapacitated, but if the CO is fine then the XO still has a host of responsibilities. So what does PB2 do?

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

If you/we/canon doesn't have a solid answer, then I would suggest that PB2 is probably just a slightly beefed-up regional command base. Take a normal RCB and give it a bit better comms and planning staff, but not much - you would have to assume that resources could be better spent elsewhere.

I would think that PB2 would still remain separate from a Regional base. Though I do a agree it should have something to do. Probably the coordination of satellite comms and such, possibly even the ability to launch Morrowsat 2. I don’t think either PB1 or PB2 should have been designed or utilized as someplace with a lot of people coming and going. Probably does have a great number of planning staffers who with a functional PB1 would concentrate on overseas, Caribbean, or South American coordination and recovery efforts. Things like ethanol production, gas or oil drill rigs, food production in Argentina and Brazil while North America is still plagued by fallout.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I would assume opposite coast but mainland. You have regional command bases already, if you need an HQ off CONUS you probably don't have a Project to command any more.

I was think in the Appalachia….. a former mine such as coal or bauxite… With the same cover story…. Played out with millions in fines and a huge environmental cleanup effort that disguises all the material and building.

Don’t agree that an OCONUS command means a failed effort. Continental Commands coordinate all the big stuff for operations on the other side of the planet. CentCom is in Florida, South Com is in florida, and PacCom is on Oahu. Those are managing Corps and Division assets or Fleet assets on the other side of the world by sat com and phone traffic through undersea cable. Morrowsat and would expect a post – war launch of companion satellites on solid rocket boosters that can sit around for ages to be carried out.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Almost certainly not.

Actually I would…… Regional bases and Supply bases don’t need non combatants under foot and a base that isn’t open to the general public is probably better. Less chance of biowarfare agents slipping in.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Than what? PB1? Absolutely not. But probably more than anyone else. Communications is probably the most vital requirement of command.

Actually if it is in the Eastern United States I would expect it to have more commo. Plugged into hardwire phone lines, cell tower networks, and data bearing fiber optics. Just by virtue of location and the density of such networks. I wouldn’t expect it to have fixed wing assets and only modest rotary craft support. This might even be the location of Morrow Rail assets. The density of rail networks and smaller networks of independent rail belonging to corporations makes this possible even in Appalachia.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

While PB1 probably would have seen some advantage in having so much collocated, spreading the rest out seems to make more sense. That is, the total risk to the Project is probably minimized by having PB2 be just a planning and coordination center, with as little else as possible.

I would think that the majority of functioning production facilities exist in Regional Bases, like you said to spread them about. However, I would also expect each Prime to be able to produce parts for a Region that may be overburdened or to make one offs and specialty equipment for unforeseen needs.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I suppose it could be an outdated facility, but if so it would be likely stripped down and largely empty.

Why? Morrow doesn’t appear to be the sort to do that. Legacy caches for example.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Yes, it is compromised. One way or the other, the story of TMP requires that all national command elements are out of the way. If PB2 existed, it was either destroyed or kept from waking.

I agree, it is compromised or the story doesn’t work. Plausible reasons and the manner of this is important to the story. If PB2 is asleep with the wake call or found, gutted and burnt each make for a different dramatic story.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

BTW, it is always worthwhile to remember that the creators (and continuers) of this game took a lot of liberties with "good sense planning" to create the gaming environment they desired. There are times when "this doesn't make sense" is the correct thing to say, and your choices are either to go off-canon or ignore the problem.

I hate the Pheonix team concept and don’t use them. I go with a Senior Command staff in cryosleep with additional direct Recon personnel attached.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I cannot see why it would.

Common, give it a whirl. Huge star wars lasers to kill satellites was an 80’s thing. Robots? Artificial intelligence? Cloning?

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Assuming that it is a beefed-up regional command base, I would say it would have the best crew available for those bases, with a carefully set of skills that would allow them to rebuild PB1's most important functions on the skeletal framework of PB2. I would add a 3-9 man Phoenix contingent as well - it always bugged me that Phoenix would be in one location, those guys would have known how ridiculous a risk that was, having at least one other Phoenix group here makes sense to me.

Me? I say a complete Senior Command staff in cryosleep with a dedicated attached Recon element. Probably a MARS element that can be moved quickly to a hot spot to assist. HAAM suits with a parachute,

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I would think that PB2 would still remain separate from a Regional base. Though I do a agree it should have something to do. Probably the coordination of satellite comms and such, possibly even the ability to launch Morrowsat 2. I don’t think either PB1 or PB2 should have been designed or utilized as someplace with a lot of people coming and going. Probably does have a great number of planning staffers who with a functional PB1 would concentrate on overseas, Caribbean, or South American coordination and recovery efforts. Things like ethanol production, gas or oil drill rigs, food production in Argentina and Brazil while North America is still plagued by fallout.

The trick is that you need to find some important-while-PB1-exists task that requires the same quantity and kind of people as PB2. Satellite comms seems like a handful of people too small and specialized for PB2, likewise fuel or food production. These are general command staff, they need something general to command.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Don’t agree that an OCONUS command means a failed effort. Continental Commands coordinate all the big stuff for operations on the other side of the planet. CentCom is in Florida, South Com is in florida, and PacCom is on Oahu. Those are managing Corps and Division assets or Fleet assets on the other side of the world by sat com and phone traffic through undersea cable. Morrowsat and would expect a post – war launch of companion satellites on solid rocket boosters that can sit around for ages to be carried out.

That makes a lot of assumptions that are fine for a contemporary world power but highly risky for a post-apocalyptic recovery effort. You can't count on sat comms or undersea cables, heck you might not even have more than a modicum of water or air transport. Putting PB2 off the mainland means depending on a lot of other things going right just to maintain a connection.

And again, if you are expecting so much of the mainland to be hit that you cannot risk putting PB2 there, how much of the Project can you expect to be left?

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Actually I would…… Regional bases and Supply bases don’t need non combatants under foot and a base that isn’t open to the general public is probably better. Less chance of biowarfare agents slipping in.

I agree that noncombatants aren't needed, there really isn't a great reason to have them there in PB1, so I am not sure why you are saying "actually I would". It is the same problem Star Trek: TNG had, adding noncombatants adds drama but doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Actually if it is in the Eastern United States I would expect it to have more commo. Plugged into hardwire phone lines, cell tower networks, and data bearing fiber optics. Just by virtue of location and the density of such networks. I wouldn’t expect it to have fixed wing assets and only modest rotary craft support. This might even be the location of Morrow Rail assets. The density of rail networks and smaller networks of independent rail belonging to corporations makes this possible even in Appalachia.

Hard connections are a terrible idea, easy to track, hard to hide - I'm an electrical engineer, and the more connections you have to grid the more screens you are going to pop up on.

As to rail, you cannot expect something like rail lines to go more than a few miles without a break. As far as the TMP is concerned, the rail lines should be a disaster to be reclaimed later.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I would think that the majority of functioning production facilities exist in Regional Bases, like you said to spread them about. However, I would also expect each Prime to be able to produce parts for a Region that may be overburdened or to make one offs and specialty equipment for unforeseen needs.

Why? There is nothing about command and control that requires production facilities. A national manufacturing facility could and should be a separate facility to minimize exposure and risk. The only reason for including anything with PB is to better communicate end-user requirements to research needs, and a good comms pipeline handles that pretty well.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Why? Morrow doesn’t appear to be the sort to do that. Legacy caches for example.

Because the requirements of a backup are different than the requirements of the principal. A prototype or outdated PB facility would have a lot that is not desirable in a backup unless you actually need all those resources in one place with PB1 still up and running. If this is the idea behind PB1 then I would expect them to mothball large parts of the facility and install a skeleton crew with some important but secondary command or control (only!) function for while PB1 is operational. Remember that PB2 need high quality staff, you want a job for them to do that is worthy of their skills, but you don't want a duplicate command facility needlessly eating up your resources.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Common, give it a whirl. Huge star wars lasers to kill satellites was an 80’s thing. Robots? Artificial intelligence? Cloning?

Sure, but why at PB2? What advantage is gained by having them with PB2 where one nuke could take out both?

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Me? I say a complete Senior Command staff in cryosleep with a dedicated attached Recon element. Probably a MARS element that can be moved quickly to a hot spot to assist. HAAM suits with a parachute,

And what is their job with PB1 functioning? Again, these are high-value staff, you can't afford to have them napping, no matter what you want them working. There really isn't a need for 2 PB's at the same time.

[nuke11]

First I think you would want to come up with a different name for the base.

Antonyms for prime

base
bottom
nadir
worst
conclusion
downfall
end

Most of these are really no good for a secondary command base name, but I kind of like "Nadir Base"

[RandyT0001]

Okay everyone is asleep but how many personnel does PB2 have?

PB2 has about 300 personnel.

Is PB2 the same scale as PB1 or larger, or smaller?

PB2 is physically smaller.

Where geographically?

The facility is buried under a dam and reservoir built at coordinates 34.40917°, -88.34093°. Morrow Industries was one of the contractors for the Tennessee-Tombigbee Waterway and the equipment yard was located in the Mud Creek basin off John Rankin Highway (34.38795°, -88.36900°). This provided a cover story for building PB2. After the waterway was completed the equipment yard was abandoned.

Does PB2 also have a large contingent of non combatants?

If non-combatants means children of the facility staff then there are about 30 non-combatants.

More commo?

An equal amount of communications equipment.

More production facilities?

Facilities to produce unidrug were incorporated on site.

More supplies?

About half of the supplies of material (ammo, weapons, spare vehicle parts, etc.) listed for PB1.

Or is it the prototype that was moved to backup status with PB1 online?

It was built as a designed back up to PB1 but with a supplemental purpose if PB1 survived.

Is it compromised? Is it knocked offline by Soviets or suspicious elements of the U.S. forces striking out in all directions?

The base had it own radiation monitoring systems tied into computers. Unlike PB1 there were no active personnel during the attack. PB2 was supposed to be activated automatically six years after the war if not cancelled by a signal from an active PB1. That signal was never sent so PB2 should have been activated a year after PB1 but it did not. The computer control room which housed the activation computer for PB2 personnel and the activation codes for other teams was flooded destroying the computer system. The rest of the base is intact and the teams are still there. As long as the dam provides the necessary electrical power to keep the cyro units active the team will sleep for millennium.

Does it have any capabilities that PB1 did not offensive, defensive, or purely reconstruction?

Besides being the back up to PB1, PB2 was given its own purpose to coordinate the reconstruction of infrastructure east of the Mississippi River. PB2 has several engineering units assigned to it that were tasked with repairing and rebuilding the electrical generation capacity of the hydroelectric dams across the United States, repair and rebuilding the rail system to facilitate the distribution of material and personnel and the repair and rebuilding of the interior waterways to facilitate the distribution of personnel and material.

What kind of personnel were emplaced there?

About one third of the personnel would shift focus to reviving the MP teams if PB1 was incapacitated. If PB1 survived the base would begin reviving its assigned teams and begin its assigned task. The remaining two hundred personnel formed the cadre of five forty man prime engineering teams. Two of these teams with supplemental workers could oversee the rebuilding of dams on rivers, remove, repair, replace and re-install turbines and generators at dams and other electrical generation plants. Two of these teams were specialists in railways and the last team was composed of specialists that could repair inland ports and waterways. Slightly less than half of these teams’ personnel were former US Army Corps of Engineers specialists. These teams have remote facilities where their extensive equipment was stored.

How's that?

[nuke11]

I'm inclined to place a backup base somewhere in the US North East. To the west of Lake Champlain in Vermont. The base would be 95% automated with a minimal complement of base personal frozen.

One of the biggest problems to having a backup base is the cost involved to creating all of these bases around the country, let alone 1 large primary base and possibly a smaller secondary base.

The more you build, the harder it becomes to keep the project hidden. The costs alone to get everything completed before 1989, without fusion technology would bankrupt a small country, let along the leading industrialists of the day. Post fusion that is another large out poring of cash to get the technology produced and then if so inclined to retrofit all of the structures previously built.

[RandyT0001]

Originally Posted by nuke11

I'm inclined to place a backup base somewhere in the US North East. To the west of Lake Champlain in Vermont. The base would be 95% automated with a minimal complement of base personal frozen.

One of the biggest problems to having a backup base is the cost involved to creating all of these bases around the country, let alone 1 large primary base and possibly a smaller secondary base.

The more you build, the harder it becomes to keep the project hidden. The costs alone to get everything completed before 1989, without fusion technology would bankrupt a small country, let along the leading industrialists of the day. Post fusion that is another large out poring of cash to get the technology produced and then if so inclined to retrofit all of the structures previously built.

IMO
Money really is not an issue. With all of the finance options of stocks, bonds, loans, derivatives, etc. available to multinational corporations and conglomerates with the ability to file bankruptcy to dismiss the accrued debts and restart anew under a different name without consequence the project is easily funded. Besides if the corporations finance the debt repayment dates beyond the day the war starts there is no bank nor court to face in default.

Using out of state contractors and imported labor force building the structures in stages is feasible. Dummy corporation hires a contractor who imports a labor force to lay the foundation then files bankruptcy. Three months later a new company buys the site and hires a contractor with out of state labor force and builds the structure. After completion the company files bankruptcy. Repeat the process until the site is completed. No contractor nor labor force sees the entire structure's construction. The final fitting out is done by a Morrow Industries subsidiary.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

The computer control room which housed the activation computer for PB2 personnel and the activation codes for other teams was flooded destroying the computer system. The rest of the base is intact and the teams are still there. As long as the dam provides the necessary electrical power to keep the cyro units active the team will sleep for millennium.

First, why take the massive risk of putting a sleeping facility completely under water? The advantages in shielding and stealth are pointless when you are all but guaranteed to have some degree of leaking and therefore some degree of destruction?

Second, having taken that risk, how bad was the risk mitigation that the computers were at the low point collecting water? And why were there not any automatic systems registering the leak and activating the staff under emergency protocols?

This kind of failure, in engineering design and construction, paints the designers as incompetent. I personally prefer to use enemy action or bad luck (errant missile, earthquake, that sort of thing) to take out necessary facilities.

[RandyT0001]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

First, why take the massive risk of putting a sleeping facility completely under water? The advantages in shielding and stealth are pointless when you are all but guaranteed to have some degree of leaking and therefore some degree of destruction?

Plot requirements.

Second, having taken that risk, how bad was the risk mitigation that the computers were at the low point collecting water? And why were there not any automatic systems registering the leak and activating the staff under emergency protocols?

Literary license.

This kind of failure, in engineering design and construction, paints the designers as incompetent. I personally prefer to use enemy action or bad luck (errant missile, earthquake, that sort of thing) to take out necessary facilities.

Errant missile, earthquake? How cliché.

Ok, ok. How about this.
The base was built under a partially completed dam. The dam serves at the outlet for the vehicles. The computer room is on the same level as the rest of the underground base. An asteroid...........no, that's been used already. An agent of Krell infiltrated the base, set her own cyro tube to wake her a month after the bombs fell and she killed the other members of the base only to find out that the commander must key in a code to open the exits. She suffocated.

Ok. Too far fetched.

Lightning struck the radio tower, overloading out the commo equipment and the command computer. 95% of the personnel died also but not the commander. Once the fusion power plant runs out of fuel, about 150 to 200 years after the war the emergency protocols circulate fresh air and wake the remaining personnel.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

Plot requirements. Literary license.

AKA lazy writing. Seriously, is there a reason why you would want to depict the planners as incompetent? And if not, why do it?

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

Errant missile, earthquake? How cliché.

Nukes not hitting where the Project expected should be the single biggest cause of lost facilities, and I would think earthquakes and other natural (or nuke-triggered) disasters would be up there too. Cliché is better than lazy writing.

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

Lightning struck the radio tower, overloading out the commo equipment and the command computer. 95% of the personnel died also but not the commander. Once the fusion power plant runs out of fuel, about 150 to 200 years after the war the emergency protocols circulate fresh air and wake the remaining personnel.

Radio towers are pretty well lightning-proofed already, it's pretty basic. And I am not sure why that would kill anyone, much less 95%.

Is there a reason PB2/Second Base needs to have survived at all? I mean, I suppose this whole discussion is a little academic if there is no chance to bring it into play, but is there a reason to create some convoluted reason why the base is intact but still sleeping? The simplest reason PB2 never took over would be because like a number of Morrow facilities it simply got hit in the first exchange.

[RandyT0001]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Is there a reason PB2/Second Base needs to have survived at all? I mean, I suppose this whole discussion is a little academic if there is no chance to bring it into play, but is there a reason to create some convoluted reason why the base is intact but still sleeping?

In your game if there is a chance that PB2 survived and might come into play then it seems that you have to create a reason why PB2 did not fulfill it's job by taking over the command of MP after PB1 was incapacitated. As you have alluded to, it has to be a well thought out and logical reason. I think that somebody on the forum once suggested that the funds, labor and material that was meant to construct PB2 was diverted by the Rich Five to build their base instead without Morrow ever discovering the truth.

I really have not decided whether PB2 survived or not for my campaign.

The simplest reason PB2 never took over would be because like a number of Morrow facilities it simply got hit in the first exchange.

Yes, that's the simplest and easiest way out. My guess is that ArmySgt wanted a discussion of other possibilities and options, i.e. a brainstorming session. (Yes, my brain contributes just a teaspoon of rainwater to the storm. )

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

I think that somebody on the forum once suggested that the funds, labor and material that was meant to construct PB2 was diverted by the Rich Five to build their base instead without Morrow ever discovering the truth.

How do you conceal that level of divergence? At some point, someone had to notice that they literally did not have what was required for the build! Siphoning off resources should produce a leaner Project, but not a ridiculous one.

And if you want the Rich Five behind it, perhaps they just looted the facility! Starnaman introduced a group who had found and looted a bolthole, perhaps the Five knew the location of PB2 and decided that it was the perfect source of last-minute resources they needed. As the bombs fell, a small crew with Morrow access codes entered the base, took certain equipment they needed but had not yet been able to acquire (comms, computers, etc.), and abandoned it. Perhaps some of the staff are still there, supported by the reactor that was too difficult to remove, perhaps they were all killed.

Heck, perhaps the facility was deliberately sabotaged by the Five to hamstring the Project and ensure their supremacy, with the plans to destroy PB rendered unnecessary by Krell's actions.

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

Yes, that's the simplest and easiest way out. My guess is that ArmySgt wanted a discussion of other possibilities and options, i.e. a brainstorming session. (Yes, my brain contributes just a teaspoon of rainwater to the storm. )

Sometimes the simplest is the best. If you need a particular effect or if it is an important plot point, then go more convoluted. But without that, the simple answers solve the problem. If I need to kill someone, I'm pretty much going to use a gun or a knife, if I need to kill someone and make it look like food poisoning or suicide or natural causes then I would go a different route, but only under such circumstances.

So is there a particular effect that is desired? Is the goal to have the staff dead (or asleep) but the facility intact? Or the other way around, have the staff alive but their facility wrecked? Each of those has a different set of reasonable causes.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

My guess is that ArmySgt wanted a discussion of other possibilities and options, i.e. a brainstorming session. (Yes, my brain contributes just a teaspoon of rainwater to the storm. )

Yes, I wanted to cultivate the various viewpoints and see what came up that I might not have considered.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

And what is their job with PB1 functioning? Again, these are high-value staff, you can't afford to have them napping, no matter what you want them working. There really isn't a need for 2 PB's at the same time.

I would think it would be two fold.

1) To take over in case of the loss of Prime Base 1 due to nuclear strike or other action. Which admittedly Prime Base 2 has failed to do. So I can surmise that there is no one outside of cryosleep in PB2 to make a determination. PB2 has to be awoke by a signal from PB1 to awaken. There is probably a "Deadman" switch that is supposed to awaken PB2 if PB1 is knocked out. I feel PB1 disabled this due to the events that happened upon opening and intended PB2 to be awoken by the same wakeup signal intended for the rest of the project.


2) PB2 would have assumed responsibility for a large portion of the eastern seaboard as the Project became to large to be managed. PB2 would become the higher authority for all regions east of the Mississippi river after a certain threshold had been reached.

3)I have considered PB2 to be the dedicated location for the jumpstart of the University and College effort. A few hundred persons all with graduate degrees and teaching experience that are intended to be re-introduced in areas that are recovering well to get the advanced education system necessary for industry, medicine, government, etc. These people are vital to the recovery but, not in the initial disaster response period.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

1) To take over in case of the loss of Prime Base 1 due to nuclear strike or other action. Which admittedly Prime Base 2 has failed to do. So I can surmise that there is no one outside of cryosleep in PB2 to make a determination. PB2 has to be awoke by a signal from PB1 to awaken. There is probably a "Deadman" switch that is supposed to awaken PB2 if PB1 is knocked out. I feel PB1 disabled this due to the events that happened upon opening and intended PB2 to be awoken by the same wakeup signal intended for the rest of the project.

Why would PB1 have the ability to remotely shut off that switch, and even if they could why would PB1 do that? They WANT PB2 up pretty much as soon as possible. If PB2 exists, as soon as PB1 figured out that they were done for, the first thing they would have done was wake up PB2. Even if they didn't want it immediately (honestly can't think of a reason they wouldn't, but still) they would not have risked tampering with that failsafe, especially when rigging another solution on the fly!

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

2) PB2 would have assumed responsibility for a large portion of the eastern seaboard as the Project became to large to be managed. PB2 would become the higher authority for all regions east of the Mississippi river after a certain threshold had been reached.

I can agree with this to the extent that there are tasks that they are going to address that are not solved via radio. If it is just about command and control then PB1 can handle that more efficiently from a single location, but if it is also meant to provide the kind of logistic and personnel support PB1 offers then that makes sense. Of course that requires that PB2 be on the same scale as PB1!

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

3)I have considered PB2 to be the dedicated location for the jumpstart of the University and College effort. A few hundred persons all with graduate degrees and teaching experience that are intended to be re-introduced in areas that are recovering well to get the advanced education system necessary for industry, medicine, government, etc. These people are vital to the recovery but, not in the initial disaster response period.

I don't get this. "A few hundred persons" is a pretty big group for a university staff even in my version of the game, and from what I recall you are running a pretty lean Project. I don't see why this wouldn't just be a secondary function of some of your already deployed Project personnel - they could be in Science and Recon teams or assigned to Project facilities, recalled to academic work only after their more urgent tasks had died down a bit. And under the original plan, waking up after 5 years there would be a good chance that a lot of people still existed who could be pressed into service for this job, since it requires neither Morrow-specific training nor Morrow-specific equipment.

Also, I don't see much overlap between the kind of people who would be good academics and the kind of people who you need to run a post-apocalyptic rescue and reconstruction effort! If I was running an Army division and my command staff was wiped out, I would grab staff from the subordinate brigades long before I would run to West Point and hand it over to the faculty! There might be a few who would be useful, but most would woefully ill-equipped for that kind of job. And if they were up to the task of running the Project, why not have them operational and tackling the toughest phase?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Why would PB1 have the ability to remotely shut off that switch, and even if they could why would PB1 do that? They WANT PB2 up pretty much as soon as possible. If PB2 exists, as soon as PB1 figured out that they were done for, the first thing they would have done was wake up PB2. Even if they didn't want it immediately (honestly can't think of a reason they wouldn't, but still) they would not have risked tampering with that failsafe, especially when rigging another solution on the fly!

PB1 is attacked by an unknown hostile with a nuclear weapon and a pretty advanced biowarfare weapon. This occurs within weeks of a cessation of major hostilities as each side has run out of nuclear weapons or the ability to target and launch them.

I would think that PB1 would not want to repeat that and chooses to implement the plan as intended with a 5 year wake up. Then plays dead hoping the attacker would assume the Project is finished right there.

The deadman switch is disabled as systems are offlined to present the appearance of the death of the Project and prevent PB2 froming coming online and attracting the same hostile attentions.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I can agree with this to the extent that there are tasks that they are going to address that are not solved via radio. If it is just about command and control then PB1 can handle that more efficiently from a single location, but if it is also meant to provide the kind of logistic and personnel support PB1 offers then that makes sense. Of course that requires that PB2 be on the same scale as PB1!

Scale. PB1 can probable handle all the communications, cataloging, and directing the reconnaissance for the initial period with Regional bases supporting the Combined Groups in the field. As time passes and recovery efforts grow it will become to cumbersome for one major HQ to process it all in a timely manner. PB2 will take over half at some point likely 2-5 years after the start of the Project.

Meanwhile having the production facilities to produce new material for the consumed stores of a Regional or Delta base. Consumption models would all be based up conjecture and with the devastation of urban centers someplace is going to have to produce the tools and machinery to get those running once again.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I don't get this. "A few hundred persons" is a pretty big group for a university staff even in my version of the game, and from what I recall you are running a pretty lean Project. I don't see why this wouldn't just be a secondary function of some of your already deployed Project personnel - they could be in Science and Recon teams or assigned to Project facilities, recalled to academic work only after their more urgent tasks had died down a bit. And under the original plan, waking up after 5 years there would be a good chance that a lot of people still existed who could be pressed into service for this job, since it requires neither Morrow-specific training nor Morrow-specific equipment.

Also, I don't see much overlap between the kind of people who would be good academics and the kind of people who you need to run a post-apocalyptic rescue and reconstruction effort! If I was running an Army division and my command staff was wiped out, I would grab staff from the subordinate brigades long before I would run to West Point and hand it over to the faculty! There might be a few who would be useful, but most would woefully ill-equipped for that kind of job. And if they were up to the task of running the Project, why not have them operational and tackling the toughest phase?

Missed the point. They are not frozen to be a part of the Project or the recovery phase. They are not even trained. They are civilian academics, probably the least likely to survive based on my limited personal experience of the species calling itself "Professor". I must profess.

They are awoken long after the Project personnel have been at the recovery and taken to areas that are doing well and become functioning societies again. These people would become the nucleus of higher education and probably some K-12 education too.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The deadman switch is disabled as systems are offlined to present the appearance of the death of the Project and prevent PB2 froming coming online and attracting the same hostile attentions.

I have a problem with this for a few reasons.

First, as an electrical engineer, if they can tap into the system well enough to disable the deadman switch (which properly would not even be networked to avoid this kind of cockup) then they can deliver a message so that when they woke up on time they get the message to lay low and look out for hostiles. Regardless, upon waking their first task would be to contact PB1, and the lack of a response would tell them 90% of what they need to know.

Second, it is just a huge gamble. How would they have any idea how long PB2 needs to slumber, and why would they take the risk that their estimate is accurate enough to justify the risk?

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Scale. PB1 can probable handle all the communications, cataloging, and directing the reconnaissance for the initial period with Regional bases supporting the Combined Groups in the field. As time passes and recovery efforts grow it will become to cumbersome for one major HQ to process it all in a timely manner. PB2 will take over half at some point likely 2-5 years after the start of the Project.

Not the way I would do it but not unreasonable either. Go for it.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Meanwhile having the production facilities to produce new material for the consumed stores of a Regional or Delta base. Consumption models would all be based up conjecture and with the devastation of urban centers someplace is going to have to produce the tools and machinery to get those running once again.

That is a great argument for having a factory somewhere, but not a great argument for collocating with PB2. It's like putting all the teams in a combined group all in one bolthole - the coordination advantage is offset by the massive risk of putting so much in one basket. Just look at how much of the Project's resources were lost with PB1, would you really compound your risk by doing that twice??

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Missed the point. They are not frozen to be a part of the Project or the recovery phase. They are not even trained. They are civilian academics, probably the least likely to survive based on my limited personal experience of the species calling itself "Professor". I must profess.

I guess I just don't see the advantage of spending freeze tubes and storage space on something that could be replicated with a couple of digital libraries, more useful Morrow personnel, and whoever could be scrounged from the survivors. This seems like a relatively low priority, and very long term. Personally, I would spend that space on more field teams. Maybe make sure that some of THEM are PhD's. Recruit from Alaska, they grow them rugged.

And yes, I absolutely missed your point.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I have a problem with this for a few reasons.

First, as an electrical engineer, if they can tap into the system well enough to disable the deadman switch (which properly would not even be networked to avoid this kind of cockup) then they can deliver a message so that when they woke up on time they get the message to lay low and look out for hostiles. Regardless, upon waking their first task would be to contact PB1, and the lack of a response would tell them 90% of what they need to know.

Second, it is just a huge gamble. How would they have any idea how long PB2 needs to slumber, and why would they take the risk that their estimate is accurate enough to justify the risk?

They cannot make any but the most pessimistic estimate. They know nothing about the group that attacked them except that they have nuclear weapons, very capable biowarfare scientists, and have absolutely no remorse in slaughtering civilians. They did not even state a reason.

Without the ability to gather any intelligence because everyone around you has less than 72 hours before dying of a man made plague, waking anyone else condemns them to the same. PB1 can’t risk anyone from TMP coming to their rescue for fear it dooms the entire Project. PB1 can’t even risk communicating to other assets for fear of giving away that the Base is not entirely dead and that other assets are out there waiting for a command signal to awaken.

Their course of action is to make every appearance that PB1 is dead. To convince the attackers, whoever they maybe, that PB1 is dead and there are no more TMP assets. Anywhere.

This is a mad gamble. I don’t see that PB1 had another choice.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Not the way I would do it but not unreasonable either. Go for it.

Most day to day stuff is going to be handled by a Regional base, PB1 or PB2 is going to coordinate and set priorities for efforts that affect regions where there is overlap or assets have to be shared such as generated electricity. PB1 and PB2 are likely to handle the MARS elements or control some directly to deal with hotspots so Combined Groups don’t spend their time and assets flying from one fight to another.

PBs are going to hold the reins on air assets greater than utility helicopters , such as Chinooks, Caribou, Hercules, and any converted civil craft like 727s or 747s. Regional bases and Combined Groups would have the Cayuse, Kiowa, and Iroquois (Huey) for medevac and scouting.

PBs are going to hold the reins on Artillery and medium or long range antiaircraft weapons. There isn’t going to be much of that in the Project and that needs to be firmly controlled.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

That is a great argument for having a factory somewhere, but not a great argument for collocating with PB2. It's like putting all the teams in a combined group all in one bolthole - the coordination advantage is offset by the massive risk of putting so much in one basket. Just look at how much of the Project's resources were lost with PB1, would you really compound your risk by doing that twice??

Where do you put it when you cannot with surety predict what will and what will not be around after a full nuclear exchange? How can you predict which region will be the best and most effective to begin a recovery operation? I am by no means advocating that PBs are the only manufacturing facility, only that PBs are the most general and rounded of manufacturing facilities. A PB is the hubs of the effort and Regional Bases (RBs) have been shown to be Command and Control, a Motor Pool, Living Quarters, and a Warehouse. A PB is a Generalist and I would expect a specialist factory such as paper mills, smelters, textile mills, etc exist; though this is conjecture and not supported by canon. For all we know there are absolutely zero factories outside of the Project with the assumption that with some help, some power, and gathering the right people, civilian factories could be restarted months after the War. Highly optimistic in my view point.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I guess I just don't see the advantage of spending freeze tubes and storage space on something that could be replicated with a couple of digital libraries, more useful Morrow personnel, and whoever could be scrounged from the survivors. This seems like a relatively low priority, and very long term. Personally, I would spend that space on more field teams. Maybe make sure that some of THEM are PhD's. Recruit from Alaska, they grow them rugged.

Those are nice, but nothing beats having someone explain a subject to you in bite size pieces to you. Another thing is those Project personnel are busy; and one can expect a certain level of attrition due to the dangers of the recovery effort. Who knows what you can expect from the survivors, nuclear fires and plague are not going to discriminate. This is a longer term and more a phase two approach to the recovery effort. Additionally, I like to throw scenarios like this at PCs…… Helpless, yet valuable, civilians to protect and assist; in this way I can steer a game back around to recovery and restoring civilization if it takes a too warlike path. NPCs are great for that.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Their course of action is to make every appearance that PB1 is dead. To convince the attackers, whoever they maybe, that PB1 is dead and there are no more TMP assets. Anywhere.

This is a mad gamble. I don’t see that PB1 had another choice.

Except that the very thing you are proposing to do is communicate with the one other Morrow facility that the enemy must not find, and doing it while the enemy is at your gate and presumably monitoring your communications. In order to stop the automatic wakeup of PB2 they would need to establish a communications link that was very directional and/or very powerful, hack into a system that has absolutely no reason to be accessible by computer anyway (like hacking into a light switch), and gamble that the completely arbitrary wake up time they just picked is better than the completely arbitrary wake up time that already exists, all at the risk of screwing things up. and killing the Project.

You're dying. You are at best leaving suggestions for the people who are going to take over the Project after you are dead. If you are going to do that, why not just send them an after action report and let them make their own decisions when they wake?

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Where do you put it when you cannot with surety predict what will and what will not be around after a full nuclear exchange?

I am not disputing the need for Morrow production facilities, rather I am espousing the mathematical advantage in dispersing them as much as possible. To simplify, assume that 20% of the surface of the country was going to be destroyed in the war, and that you are randomly placing assets into facilities. If you place all your assets in one facility then you have an 80% chance of getting through without losses but a 20% chance of losing everything. The more you spread your assets out the lower the standard deviation becomes and the closer you get to losing 20% of your assets and having 80% survive - not great, but worthwhile when you absolutely cannot accept a total loss. It is the same basic reason why infantry squads don't cluster together in one tight group when under fire, the reason why Navy battlegroups are spread so far apart that the ships are often over the horizon from each other.

This lends to one-man boltholes if taken to that extreme, but it is counteracted somewhat by the fact that the standard deviation has dropped enough at the team level that going lower than that doesn't help that much. In addition, there are risks and inefficiencies in being spread out and since your real metric is not survivability but rather total post-war effectiveness (which includes survivability AND efficiency) there are going to be larger facilities because some facilities are much more efficient if they are larger.

So I agree with the need for general factories and perhaps a few specialized plants, but unless there is some significant need for asset A and asset B to share a facility it makes more mathematical sense to split them into separate facilities so that one nuke doesn't take out both.

Oh, as another point, remember that adding capabilities to PB1 or PB2 also increases their exposure. Manufacturing facilities have trucks coming in and out, medical facilities add patients, etc, etc. Every person or signal that comes into a base increases the odds that it will be detected and makes it that much easier to destroy, so why add signals and people that are not necessary to the core function?

PB1 was not taken out until it began caring for refugees, something that should have been farmed out to a nearby Recon team rather than risk exposing headquarters. The nuke was gotten to the base because they set up recovery efforts in their front yard. Command and control are different functions than recovery, and if they had taken the basic steps of spreading these different functions out Krell would probably have never even spent the nuke for lack of a worthwhile target.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Those are nice, but nothing beats having someone explain a subject to you in bite size pieces to you. Another thing is those Project personnel are busy; and one can expect a certain level of attrition due to the dangers of the recovery effort. Who knows what you can expect from the survivors, nuclear fires and plague are not going to discriminate. This is a longer term and more a phase two approach to the recovery effort.

And you are asset starved with no guarantee of getting to phase two if you are spending survival resources on such. If your Project personnel are too busy to teach or dying too often, why not spend those tubes on guys who can teach AND fight so that the rest of your personnel aren't so busy and more likely to survive? If phase one is unsuccessful, phase two doesn't really matter!

And incidentally, this is the reason why Morrow personnel were all supposed to be college graduates - retaining knowledge and teaching it is a core mission of the entire Project, exactly what they are supposed to shift over to when survival and priority reconstruction become less time consuming.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Additionally, I like to throw scenarios like this at PCs…… Helpless, yet valuable, civilians to protect and assist; in this way I can steer a game back around to recovery and restoring civilization if it takes a too warlike path. NPCs are great for that.

Sure, but the game is already filthy with helpless NPC's, and many of them are valuable. Most Morrow base personnel fit the bill already, as do a great many non-Morrow personnel. The world cannot be entirely composed of heroes and villains, it must be dominated in numbers by the mundane.

By the way, if I wanted helpless but valuable Morrow personnel for this reason, I would use a hospital - medical staff are important at all stages, rarely combat effective (besides the medics in the field), and notably a part of that recovery and restoration mission. An agriculture or construction support base would be good too, and none of them need to be collocated, just vulnerable and near enough by to be reachable.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Except that the very thing you are proposing to do is communicate with the one other Morrow facility that the enemy must not find, and doing it while the enemy is at your gate and presumably monitoring your communications. In order to stop the automatic wakeup of PB2 they would need to establish a communications link that was very directional and/or very powerful, hack into a system that has absolutely no reason to be accessible by computer anyway (like hacking into a light switch), and gamble that the completely arbitrary wake up time they just picked is better than the completely arbitrary wake up time that already exists, all at the risk of screwing things up. and killing the Project.

I guess one part we differ on is the location of the “Deadman switch”. I think it is integrally linked to the PB1 facilities…. Enough systems go offline, power, environmental, communications; and PB1 has a redundant single purpose transmitter that says we are dead. PB2 like a bolt hole is otherwise waiting for a wake up signal.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

You're dying. You are at best leaving suggestions for the people who are going to take over the Project after you are dead. If you are going to do that, why not just send them an after action report and let them make their own decisions when they wake?

I am saying nothing was sent at all. Absolutely nothing is know about an enemy that has and uses nuclear weapons and biowarfare plagues. To assume the do not have just a sophisticated electronic warfare capabilities wouldn’t help matters. The Project Command Staff at PB1 decided dying in place and doing their best to convince this enemy that all of the Project is dead too was their best option. The decide to delay the wake up and hope that a mass recall message in a few years gets the Project going. Hopefully, without the same fate as PB1 from an unknown , aggressive, and extremely well equipped attacker.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I am not disputing the need for Morrow production facilities, rather I am espousing the mathematical advantage in dispersing them as much as possible. To simplify, assume that 20% of the surface of the country was going to be destroyed in the war, and that you are randomly placing assets into facilities. If you place all your assets in one facility then you have an 80% chance of getting through without losses but a 20% chance of losing everything. The more you spread your assets out the lower the standard deviation becomes and the closer you get to losing 20% of your assets and having 80% survive - not great, but worthwhile when you absolutely cannot accept a total loss. It is the same basic reason why infantry squads don't cluster together in one tight group when under fire, the reason why Navy battlegroups are spread so far apart that the ships are often over the horizon from each other.

Meh, poh –tay-toe, poh-tah-toh…. I am saying I think that PB1 and PB2 should have full and general production capabilities and others with specialized, more efficient, and with higher outputs exist in areas closest to raw materials.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

This lends to one-man boltholes if taken to that extreme, but it is counteracted somewhat by the fact that the standard deviation has dropped enough at the team level that going lower than that doesn't help that much. In addition, there are risks and inefficiencies in being spread out and since your real metric is not survivability but rather total post-war effectiveness (which includes survivability AND efficiency) there are going to be larger facilities because some facilities are much more efficient if they are larger.

Again I believe in a man power poor, and resource rich Project. So I think some overly optimistic and zealous civil engineers with immense budgets built some outrageously survivable shelters.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

So I agree with the need for general factories and perhaps a few specialized plants, but unless there is some significant need for asset A and asset B to share a facility it makes more mathematical sense to split them into separate facilities so that one nuke doesn't take out both.

There are some plant operators and production managers that would love time to go over that mathematician with a baseball bat.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Oh, as another point, remember that adding capabilities to PB1 or PB2 also increases their exposure. Manufacturing facilities have trucks coming in and out, medical facilities add patients, etc, etc. Every person or signal that comes into a base increases the odds that it will be detected and makes it that much easier to destroy, so why add signals and people that are not necessary to the core function?

Once the Project is open and teams are in the field for the intended mission I would believe 99% of the deception falls away.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

PB1 was not taken out until it began caring for refugees, something that should have been farmed out to a nearby Recon team rather than risk exposing headquarters. The nuke was gotten to the base because they set up recovery efforts in their front yard. Command and control are different functions than recovery, and if they had taken the basic steps of spreading these different functions out Krell would probably have never even spent the nuke for lack of a worthwhile target.

Illogical but, that is the plot……

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

And you are asset starved with no guarantee of getting to phase two if you are spending survival resources on such. If your Project personnel are too busy to teach or dying too often, why not spend those tubes on guys who can teach AND fight so that the rest of your personnel aren't so busy and more likely to survive? If phase one is unsuccessful, phase two doesn't really matter!

I don’t feel the Project is asset poor. Man power poor because people with the skill sets for this kind of work plus the personal background and mental strength to quit their lives, become dead to friends and family, and go into a tomb to come out into living hell…….. rare isn’t even actually descriptive enough for this person who must only exist in fiction writing.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

And incidentally, this is the reason why Morrow personnel were all supposed to be college graduates - retaining knowledge and teaching it is a core mission of the entire Project, exactly what they are supposed to shift over to when survival and priority reconstruction become less time consuming.

Those degrees and knowledge supports their recovery mission and ensures competence and capability. That also ensures that they have something post reconstruction to fallback on. These people are going to be used up, burnt out, and it could be years, a decade before they get above the village level and phase two can begin. These academics will awaken fresh, as if the 20th century was yesterday, and their knowledge or skills sharp. Someone very skilled and very competent at teaching a skill set is probably to old and not physically up to the reconstruction effort. That is ok, their contribution is going to end the coming Dark Ages.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Sure, but the game is already filthy with helpless NPC's, and many of them are valuable. Most Morrow base personnel fit the bill already, as do a great many non-Morrow personnel. The world cannot be entirely composed of heroes and villains, it must be dominated in numbers by the mundane.

I know! Fun isn’t it! I love post-apoc games!

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

By the way, if I wanted helpless but valuable Morrow personnel for this reason, I would use a hospital - medical staff are important at all stages, rarely combat effective (besides the medics in the field), and notably a part of that recovery and restoration mission. An agriculture or construction support base would be good too, and none of them need to be collocated, just vulnerable and near enough by to be reachable.

These have been done and are in canon already in “Falllback!” and “Final Watch”. Looking for some other ideas besides the ones found in the modules already. Ag base, supply base unmanned, commo base manned, commo unmanned, hospital, city scale power plant.

[mikeo80]

I played one game in which there was a backup to Prime. It was located in south east Kansas, the entrance was disguised as a corn silo.

The PB2 we encountered was un-manned. It was physically the same size as the PB of canon. There were automatic weapons at the entrance.

The PB2 we found had all of the supplies, workshops, etc. We found it by good luck.

As I recall what happened, our team received a distress call from a Frozen Watch team. Their bolt hole had had a catastrophic failure, most of the members got out. (Some did not.) Of course, they have no vehicles, or backpacks. Some had side arms only. The TL was able to grab a portable radio system. *I do not have my 3rd or 4th gen rule book at hand. I do not know or remember the exact nomenclature.*

The TL went to the top of a near by hill to broadcast for help. Our RO heard them, and we vectored to them.

What we learned was that the FW leader was "An ace in the hole". A member of Morrow Command with high enough rank to know where PB2 was. She was placed in with the FW as a fail-safe. She was NOT field command, so she slotted into our unit as a VERY useful information source.

Once we got IN to PB2, something happened that scared the snot out of us. As best our team medic could figure, post hypnotic suggestions. Some of the FW were designed as part of the backups to the operators of PB2.

It was JUST enough to get PB2 up and running. Enough to find others who were qualified to work in PB.

When the game ended, our little Recon Team was running patrol about 50 klicks from PB. Kind of a tripwire if something bad came our way. But we had a home. We now knew what had happened. We were The Morrow Project again.

BTW, in OUR PB, there was NO PHOENIX TEAM!!!!! (I really do NOT like Phoenix!!! Just saying.)

Game was a LOT of fun. It lasted about 1 1/2 years game time.

my $0.02

Mike

[tsofian]

Looking at the maps I really can't see a better location for Prime Base. Northern Maine might work, or the northern part of Wisconsin and the UP of Michigan, but other then the general northern Nevada, southern Idaho and south eastern Oregon that is really the only parts of the country that won't get either totally plastered with nukes or covered with fallout, or overrun with refugees.

For the "frozen" bases only the nuke parts matter. So long as the bases aren't discovered being covered with fallout or stampeded over by hordes or refugees (so long as they don't stick around and build a city over your head) won't matter much

It does indicate that the back up base is probably in the northern tier of States.

Of course in a universe where ELF arrays are still active in Wisconsin and Michigan that rules those areas out, since they will get hammered.

I am thinking Maine.

[mmartin798]

For such a key story element, they sure get their stories mixed up about Prime Base and the Backup Prime. For instance, 3rd edition says the Backup Prime staff is all in "cold storage". 4th edition states that Backup Prime is smaller, with relatively few frozen specialist in addition to the "awake team".

So 3rd edition, with Backup being frozen you can make a case for it not activating the Project in a timely manner. But in 4th edition, Backup Prime has staffers awake. No reason they can't be in radio silence with Prime Base broadcasting updated after the bombs fall to keep them current. But that would mean they would be aware of any problem at Prime Base and could start working up contingency plans.

There has to be some version of the story we agree to about the fall of Prime and the normal operational status of Backup Prime. Otherwise it is just a lot easier to just say, "There was a problem and the wake signals never got sent" with no attempt to explain it.