Vistula Navigation

[rcaf_777]

Something interesting I found

Vistula Navigation

The Vistula is navigable from the Baltic Sea to Bydgoszcz. The Vistula can accommodate modest river vessels of CEMT class II. Farther upstream the river depth lessens. Although a project was undertaken to increase the traffic-carrying capacity of the river upstream of Warsaw by building a number of locks in and around Kraków, this project was not extended further, so that navigability of the Vistula remains limited. The potential of the river would increase considerably if a restoration of the East-West connection via the Narew–Bug–Mukhovets–Pripyat–Dnieper waterways were considered. The shifting economic importance of parts of Europe may make this option more likely.

CEMT Class II Max Tonnage 650 Max Length 55.0 Meters Max Beam 6.60m

Wisla Krolowa Gross Tonnage 200 Ship’s Length: 35m Ship’s Beam 10m

[Silent Hunter UK]

Mind you, wouldn't you have problems with wrecks, debris etc. in T2K?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

If I remember right, one of the chief problems is sediment being washed down from upstream. It causes the formation of numerous temporary sandbars.

[Legbreaker]

And there is mention of wrecks and other problems, including the shifting of the course of the river by a kilometre or more at one point.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

It can get quite a flow going downstream at times so any waterborne debris can build up in short order - everything from the usual household rubbish to tree branches will happily float on the surface but even stuff under the water (e.g. the aforementioned sediment but also water-logged timber, old tyres and the like), can get pushed further down the river when there's a good current.
So you might not be facing just a wreck but also a pile of junk that's built up in front of the wreck, you'd have to treat any wrecked ship as being hazardous even before you've physically reached it.

[Legbreaker]

I've seen old car bodies and boulders shifted through fairly small creeks. Water is a strong and irresistible force for the most part. A couple of decent floods and the Vistula river is/will be unrecognisable without continuing maintenance.

[kcdusk]

sand bars and debris is a navigation hazard when water levels are low.

strong flows, whirlpools, uncontrolled steering if caught in strong currents would also be a hazard at the other end of the scale (high water levels).

In either case, it adds to the game, means a PC or NPC needs to be on hand to pilot the vessel. And then of course in either case, you could also be
under fire : - )

[unkated]

I imagine that towns would mark navigable channels on the approach to their docks, and keep those fairly up to date to encourage traffic.

I suspect that with a little experience, you would get an idea of which areas of a river may vary and which will remain fairly stable based on size and shape of banks, type and depth of bottom, straight or curved etc.

Boats would have to navigate the old fashioned way - by checking as they go if they aren't sure.

Which brings me to an NPC for a Vistula campaign:

Marco Czerty
Nom de guerre (it's on his paperwork; he paid good money for that) of an ex-Polish merchant marine sailor now working on a small river steamer like the Wisla Krowola. May have spent time in military and have detached voluntarily (hence working under his current name). Some skill in Boats, Navigation, Small arms, Mechanic.

Tells interesting and somewhat amusing stories of current life along the river, twisted versions of Polish folktales, wry looks at the (ex-)Communist gov't and the Soviets. (see Collected Stories of the Twillight, published Lublin 2025).

"Marco Czerty" translates to "Mark Four" - 4 meters being close to the two fathom safety margin for shallow 19th C river steamers that gave Samuel Clemens his pen name - Mark Twain.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by unkated

I imagine that towns would mark navigable channels on the approach to their docks, and keep those fairly up to date to encourage traffic.

The problem with that is the majority of settlements along the river as depicted in the modules covering that area, aren't in a position to do anything like that. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, but mostly the inhabitants of those areas are likely to be much more focused on day to day survival, than the fairly time consuming process of manually testing and marking a channel that may only be infrequently used. Local water traffic is likely to be confined to small boats and canoe type vessels with extremely shallow drafts and limited capacity.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The problem with that is the majority of settlements along the river as depicted in the modules covering that area, aren't in a position to do anything like that. Sure, there are exceptions to the rule, but mostly the inhabitants of those areas are likely to be much more focused on day to day survival, than the fairly time consuming process of manually testing and marking a channel that may only be infrequently used. Local water traffic is likely to be confined to small boats and canoe type vessels with extremely shallow drafts and limited capacity.

I have to differ with you on the effort required. The approaches to the town on the river is only like 3 km in either direction. You're not re-surveying the entire area, just marking a reasonably safe travel for the larger end of the expected traffic (go here). That's 1-3 men in a row boat for an afternoon, once every couple of months, maybe more often in the wake of a major storm.

On the other hand, I will grant that if there is not sufficient traffic (boats like Wisla Krowola), then there is no (economic) reason to bother.

Uncle Ted

[Legbreaker]

But would you only do a mile or two up and down stream? If you really want river trade, you want the whole route from supplier to market open, not just the last few steps up to the front door.
Ok, any small bit marked is better than nothing, but is it really worth the effort?

We also know there's no other boats comparable to the Wistla Krowla in operation or even available for repair. If there was, both the Korsarz (Baron's priates) and Miasto Plywajecy Warsawskie (floating city) would probably have already found, repaired, and incorporated it/them into their fleet(s).

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

But would you only do a mile or two up and down stream? If you really want river trade, you want the whole route from supplier to market open, not just the last few steps up to the front door.

If I'm just a small town, absolutely. Why would I do several miles, and give another town a free ride on my efforts?

What's the point? Merchants know they can land here safely. My town is not claiming responsibility over a broader sweep than it can regularly control. Nor am I risking surveying parties where I cannot protect them.

Not sure how you will get here, but if you do, we'll show you how to land safely.

Some great city like Krakow can afford to patrol or watch over a longer stretch of the river. Equally, there is nothing to prevent multiple adjacent towns to cover a longer stretch of river between them.

A regional power (like Raellus' Nova Hanza) might well be interesting in opening up the river as a trade route, but then, they have the resources of multiple towns to draw upon. They (in particular) also have an interesting in expanding trade.

As for the amount of river traffic available, your mileage may vary.

Uncle Ted

[rcaf_777]

Pictures and a Map of the River

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And for those river areas away from the towns and cities, the following image is not an uncommon situation (this photo was taken outside Warsaw on June 2013).
You can see why river navigation requires a little more thought than the weekend leisure boat crowd typically employ!




Image source: Post #154, posted by forum user Zbig , date posted 1st Jun 2013
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...811191&page=11

[Legbreaker]

A few minutes using google earth shows most of the river in a similar state, and it's also a rather shallow river with many opportunities for the unwary captain to bottom out his vessel.
It looks nice and wide, but from a little upstream of Krakow it's basically unnavigable to anything more than a small trailer-borne fishing boat.
From Wikipedia

The Vistula is navigable from the Baltic Sea to Bydgoszcz (where the Bydgoszcz Canal joins the river). The Vistula can accommodate modest river vessels of CEMT class II. Farther upstream the river depth lessens. Although a project was undertaken to increase the traffic-carrying capacity of the river upstream of Warsaw by building a number of locks in and around Kraków, this project was not extended further, so that navigability of the Vistula remains limited.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classi...land_Waterways
http://www.kzgw.gov.pl/en/Srodladowe...-w-Polsce.html
It's already a bit of a stretch for the Wistla Krowla to be so far upstream.
http://polandtravelguide.org/vistula-or-wisla-river/

The Vistula is only navigable from the Baltic Sea to Bydgoszcz except for small river vessels

[bobcat]

honestly i wouldn't want to sail that in anything with a deeper draft than a hovercraft. and even then i'd take it slow. (almost makes you wonder what they were thinking in the book 1633 trying to take gunboats up that.)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You know Bobcat, even if you don't tell us what you find, it'll still be damned interesting to hear how you went about it!