Favorite Infantry-Portable Fire Support Weapon

[Raellus]

Why not?

[Matt Wiser]

Ma Deuce....no questions asked.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Ma Deuce....no questions asked.

I agree with this.

[CDAT]

So a question for the people who are picking the Mk. 19. Do you have any real experience with it? If so were you able to get LSA Oil for it? If so how?

[ArmySGT.]

RPG-7

Truly under rated. Accuracy problems are really due to the ammuntion itself.

Reloadable and the sights are easy to swap. Night vision capable (Gen2) or daylight scopes with x3, and x6, and I hear x8 variable power. Sights with tritium inserts too for near darkness.

Easy to train on.

Ammunition types are astounding. HEAT, HE, HE-Frag, Illum, Thermobaric, smoke, and tandem charges.

Motor for the rockets can be swapped out in the field by the gunners, as motors and warheads are separate in the packaging. High speed, but short ranged motors for urban and close terrain with fleeting targets as an option. Low speed, but longer ranged motors for defense or attack in more open terrain.

HEAT warheads can and have been manufactured in garage shops with 40mm to 100+mm and piezo electric base fuzed warheads.

The hip pocket artillery of the light infantry with one to two per squad.

[bobcat]

Originally Posted by CDAT

So a question for the people who are picking the Mk. 19. Do you have any real experience with it? If so were you able to get LAW Oil for it? If so how?

i don't think i've ever had the lube i was supposed to use for anything i've been issued. but i still love the Mk 19. its almost as good as momma for direct fire and it do some real damage fired with a high angle.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by bobcat

i don't think i've ever had the lube i was supposed to use for anything i've been issued. but i still love the Mk 19. its almost as good as momma for direct fire and it do some real damage fired with a high angle.

I was just wondering, as we could never keep ours from jamming, three rounds was the best we ever got be fore it jammed. We were told it was because we were using the wrong lube, as we could not get the lube, we found it to be less than useful, great idea, but practice was left lacking.

[bobcat]

Originally Posted by CDAT

I was just wondering, as we could never keep ours from jamming, three rounds was the best we ever got be fore it jammed. We were told it was because we were using the wrong lube, as we could not get the lube, we found it to be less than useful, great idea, but practice was left lacking.

LSA works decent, CLP doesn't work for Mark or Mamma. just make sure you get a few things of the older RBC for cleaning it same as with Mamma.
and now i have an idea for a sidequest for a campaign involving stockpiles of old maintenance supplies to get LSA and RBC for the heavy weapons.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by bobcat

LSA works decent, CLP doesn't work for Mark or Mamma. just make sure you get a few things of the older RBC for cleaning it same as with Mamma.
and now i have an idea for a sidequest for a campaign involving stockpiles of old maintenance supplies to get LSA and RBC for the heavy weapons.

CLP worked great on our Ma Duce, it ran like a champ. We had one Mk. 19, one M2HB, and one M240 for the platoon, almost all the time left the Mk. 19 as it just would not work (was brand new, so we think it was the CLP), but everything else worked just great.

[Legbreaker]

Seems absolutely criminal for the correct lubricant to be withheld. When lives are on the line I'd have thought this would be as critical as food, water and ammo!

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Seems absolutely criminal for the correct lubricant to be withheld. When lives are on the line I'd have thought this would be as critical as food, water and ammo!

I do not think that it was being withheld, my understanding is that it was more that it is not in the Army inventory, it was built for the Navy, and made for working in/around the water.

[Legbreaker]

The problem has existed for years I believe. It is certainly at least incompetency by those who are supposed to ensure the soldiers get what they actually need.

[ArmySGT.]

I have an unending burning hatred for the Mk-19 AGL.

I would pay good money to kick the guy in the balls that accepted that thing for Army service.

Stuck with them frequently as an MP.

In 1990 I had an M60...... by 95 we had Mk-19s and a SAW. Both severely lack in my experience.

The ammo cans were 48 rounds in 1990, later reduced to 32 rounds so smaller statured people could load the gun.

It takes a good deal of upper body strength to charge the weapon (two pulls of the charging handles. Most females and a few males could not do it.

I have a video on another PC from a range at Ft. Riley...... Fam fire for the HQ platoon..... The range safeties have to charge the Mk-19 for the tiny filipina supply clerk so she can blast 32 rounds out at the 600 meter targets.

Absolutely shit on Patrol...... If your engaged in a close ambush, either the rounds are not going to arm (17 meters) or your danger close for your own ammo.... Add a high fire rate.. if it doesn't jam after 3-5 round, then your gun is empty real quick.

The fucking thing makes it a bitch to turn the turret. Most of the time the Team Leader and the Driver are pushing and pulling to help the gunner get the turret around..... This only got worse as gun shields, then later rear and side armor was added. I hear there is an electric motor now, wasn't in 2005 when I got out on MP gun trucks.

Never had a problem getting the LSAT (white snot) but, the shit is so thin and runny in hot weather we left the gun dry. In the Desert we left the guns dry and a light coat of CLP to be able to lock it back....... then squirt in LSAT from the big white tooth paste tube when engaged or about to engage.

The alternative was white lithium grease which stayed in place versus LSAT and collected less dirt than LSAT.

otherwise that fucking boat anchor collected sand (not grit) in huge quantities through all the god damn holes machined in the sides for the dual changing handles and the bottom ejection port.

The ROE prevented us from using the damn things on anything we could not identify positively with Binos or the AN/TVS-5. So having a 2200 meter effective range means not a god damn thing.

Honestly, the fucking guns rode on the turret because the CO and the BC drank the koolaid...... the guns actually had five rounds and an empty can. We engaged close ambushes with a SAW or floored it and got the convoy the fuck outta dodge. We did get the M2HB returned to us in the form of one per squad..... So patrols or convoy escorts were three gun trucks with x2 Mk-19s and one M2HB...... the M2HB was always the middle truck, that way it could support either the lead or the trail.

I would happily slag that piece of shit with a thermite grenade at any give chance.

*edit* Basic load of ammo for an MP gun truck in the 90's was 10 cans of HEDP for the MK-19. This was reduced to 4-6 in 2003. So at one time you had 480 rounds of HEDP in an unarmored M1025/M1026, later 132-168 rounds of HEDP in an M1025 or M114. This in addition to all the other things that will sympathetically detonate if you roll over a mine, or take a IED in the rear passenger doors..... Like an AT-4, all the grenades in an ammo can on the center deck, etc.

[LT. Ox]

Thanks Army SGT.
I voted for the 60 but then I like indirect support and I like it where I can get it NOW!

[pmulcahy11b]

I picked the M2HB simply because I'm most familiar with it. But the times I got to fire the Mk 19 were fun times...and the couple of times I got to fire the M202A1 were really lots of fun.

[pmulcahy11b]

I remember one FTX where I had my favorite M60, and I was so sick and weak with viral bronchitis it took both hands to charge it. ( A few days later after I started coughing up blood, they put me in the hospital for 5 days, pumped full of antibiotics and steroids.)

It's surprisingly clumsy to charge an M60 from the prone with two hands.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It's surprisingly clumsy to charge an M60 from the prone with two hands.

Try firing it without the trigger group!
Ah, fun times....

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by LT. Ox

Thanks Army SGT.
I voted for the 60 but then I like indirect support and I like it where I can get it NOW!

Me too. Two guys can carry everything and there is great flexibility with the ammo.

I guess the M2 would be my second choice IF a vehicle is involved. Otherwise, the gun, tripod, ammo, and spare barrels are too heavy to hump.

I'm also not a fan of what I consider the M2's (and all Browning MGs) big weakness. After you heat up the barrel to the point where you have to change it, you will be involved in that task for up to a minute or more. This is due to the fact that ALL Browning MGs MUST BE "head-spaced" and "timed" during every barrel change. Running the "go/no-go" gauge under fire is not that appealing to me. It has been my experience that the gun will lose timing at between 300 and 500 rounds if not allowed to cool after every 50 to 100 rounds of continuous fire. I know they have those cool looking "barrel supports" (consisting of 3 rods which run along side the barrel and attached by plates to the front and back of the barrel) to lengthen the time you can fire on a single barrel before it loses head space and timing; but the armor seems to be the only ones who can get those. We "poor cousins" in artillery could never get them when I served. I did hear that Ohio Ordinance has developed a new QCB Barrel (quick change barrel) that doesn't need to be timed. This would be a great boon to the M2.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Try firing it without the trigger group!
Ah, fun times....

I'll do you one better...I lost my trigger group on a road march at Ft. Drum. I turned an easy five-mile road march into the "Bataan Death March" as we searched for my missing trigger group. I was not very popular that day.

I also watched a new guy "disable" his M60 by slamming the feed tray cover down on a closed bolt. The "clink" of feed guide pawl bending made my skin crawl.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I'm also not a fan of what I consider the M2's (and all Browning MGs) big weakness. After you heat up the barrel to the point where you have to change it, you will be involved in that task for up to a minute or more. This is due to the fact that ALL Browning MGs MUST BE "head-spaced" and "timed" during every barrel change. Running the "go/no-go" gauge under fire is not that appealing to me. It has been my experience that the gun will lose timing at between 300 and 500 rounds if not allowed to cool after every 50 to 100 rounds of continuous fire. I know they have those cool looking "barrel supports" (consisting of 3 rods which run along side the barrel and attached by plates to the front and back of the barrel) to lengthen the time you can fire on a single barrel before it loses head space and timing; but the armor seems to be the only ones who can get those. We "poor cousins" in artillery could never get them when I served. I did hear that Ohio Ordinance has developed a new QCB Barrel (quick change barrel) that doesn't need to be timed. This would be a great boon to the M2.

Umm the three rods thing is the blanks firings adapter.....

There is a Quick change barrel system...... Canada for one uses one. Several defense contractors manufacture them. There are even other barrel options out there with ribbed barrels to dissipate heat faster and built in handles to make quick changes easier.

The U.S. Army doesn't purchase these because of thousands of M2s and M3s in inventory. Citing the expense and fiscal realities.

We won't discuss the repeated rifle and pistol trials in the millions that could have replace every M2 in inventory twice over.

No, not that.

How does the DoD allocate money on new or legacy systems? Find a politician and throw money at that person....... also confirm that the General or Colonel in oversight of the project has a fallback VP position at that corporation post retirement.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I have an unending burning hatred for the Mk-19 AGL.

I would pay good money to kick the guy in the balls that accepted that thing for Army service.

Stuck with them frequently as an MP.

In 1990 I had an M60...... by 95 we had Mk-19s and a SAW. Both severely lack in my experience.

The ammo cans were 48 rounds in 1990, later reduced to 32 rounds so smaller statured people could load the gun.

It takes a good deal of upper body strength to charge the weapon (two pulls of the charging handles. Most females and a few males could not do it.

I have a video on another PC from a range at Ft. Riley...... Fam fire for the HQ platoon..... The range safeties have to charge the Mk-19 for the tiny filipina supply clerk so she can blast 32 rounds out at the 600 meter targets.

Absolutely shit on Patrol...... If your engaged in a close ambush, either the rounds are not going to arm (17 meters) or your danger close for your own ammo.... Add a high fire rate.. if it doesn't jam after 3-5 round, then your gun is empty real quick.

The fucking thing makes it a bitch to turn the turret. Most of the time the Team Leader and the Driver are pushing and pulling to help the gunner get the turret around..... This only got worse as gun shields, then later rear and side armor was added. I hear there is an electric motor now, wasn't in 2005 when I got out on MP gun trucks.

Never had a problem getting the LSAT (white snot) but, the shit is so thin and runny in hot weather we left the gun dry. In the Desert we left the guns dry and a light coat of CLP to be able to lock it back....... then squirt in LSAT from the big white tooth paste tube when engaged or about to engage.

The alternative was white lithium grease which stayed in place versus LSAT and collected less dirt than LSAT.

otherwise that fucking boat anchor collected sand (not grit) in huge quantities through all the god damn holes machined in the sides for the dual changing handles and the bottom ejection port.

The ROE prevented us from using the damn things on anything we could not identify positively with Binos or the AN/TVS-5. So having a 2200 meter effective range means not a god damn thing.

Honestly, the fucking guns rode on the turret because the CO and the BC drank the koolaid...... the guns actually had five rounds and an empty can. We engaged close ambushes with a SAW or floored it and got the convoy the fuck outta dodge. We did get the M2HB returned to us in the form of one per squad..... So patrols or convoy escorts were three gun trucks with x2 Mk-19s and one M2HB...... the M2HB was always the middle truck, that way it could support either the lead or the trail.

I would happily slag that piece of shit with a thermite grenade at any give chance.

*edit* Basic load of ammo for an MP gun truck in the 90's was 10 cans of HEDP for the MK-19. This was reduced to 4-6 in 2003. So at one time you had 480 rounds of HEDP in an unarmored M1025/M1026, later 132-168 rounds of HEDP in an M1025 or M114. This in addition to all the other things that will sympathetically detonate if you roll over a mine, or take a IED in the rear passenger doors..... Like an AT-4, all the grenades in an ammo can on the center deck, etc.

I thought it was just me. I didn't have a lot of experience with the weapon but I could never get the one M19 we had to run correctly. I always took an M2.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I'll do you one better...I lost my trigger group on a road march at Ft. Drum. I turned an easy five-mile road march into the "Bataan Death March" as we searched for my missing trigger group. I was not very popular that day.

That damn clip comes off too easy doesn't it? We'd carry a spare in our webbing, along with a spare firing pin (not that the pin broke all that often).

[Rockwolf66]

Hey leg have you taken a look at the new M60E6?

I got lucky and one of my Local gunstores had one...it went fast.

Apparently they have improved most of the weapon. Hopefully this year I can get to at least see one in action. I have some trigger time on 'E3 models and I would love to compare.

[Legbreaker]

Nope, and extremely unlikely to as well. The M60 is no longer in widespread service here in Australia (the MAG 58 having taken over that role) and there's absolutely NO chance of one being in civilian hands, ever.

[Rockwolf66]

Well there are a few YouTube Videos that go over all the changes they have made with the E6 model.

Vickers Tactical

I know that LAV is full of himself but it's a great overview of the improvements.

Machinegun Mike Part 1

Machinegun Mike Part 2

now MG Mike is a channel that has lots of "cool" firearms and he talks about their history. He actually has a AKMSU clone that is 100% accurate to the original.

This last one is not a single video but a channel. It's dedicated to the M60 Machinegun. Some of the posts can be applied to other weapons systems. His "Predator Pack" is something I could see people in TW2K making.

M60 Machinegun Channel

[swaghauler]

I would like to get my hands on both an M60E6 and a MK48 Mod 1. Even just a one-hour rental at the local NFA gun shop. They are rare birds right now.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That damn clip comes off too easy doesn't it? We'd carry a spare in our webbing, along with a spare firing pin (not that the pin broke all that often).

We used to screw around with NOOBs and cut the wire tie from the front sight post to the gas piston to see if they would notice it was missing before the piston "disassembled itself" during firing. It was also a sure bet some NOOB would put the piston in backwards and convert his GPMG into a "belt fed single shot, bolt action...."

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That damn clip comes off too easy doesn't it? We'd carry a spare in our webbing, along with a spare firing pin (not that the pin broke all that often).

I started putting blue Loctite on the push pins so they wouldn't move so easily (you'd have to tap them out). Other guys cut skateboard friction tape and wrapped the pins (mine were still a little too tight for that). I also had my sight adjustments for all three barrels printed on a tag taped (with clear packing tape) onto my feed tray cover so I didn't have to remember each barrel's zero. I painted dots on my front sights with green luminous sight paint too. We even taped green "flame-retardant cloth" (like what welders wear) around the receiver end of our barrels to help with swaps when we were in the field. Melted duct tape is a bitch to get off a parkerized finish. The armorer HATED all us GPMG guys because we made so many mods to our guns. They simply weren't "inspection pretty" anymore after we got done with them.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Ma Deuce....no questions asked.

Amen!

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Nope, and extremely unlikely to as well. The M60 is no longer in widespread service here in Australia (the MAG 58 having taken over that role) and there's absolutely NO chance of one being in civilian hands, ever.

Need to move to the US - amazing what you can legally get your hands on in this country