M4a1

[Tnchi2a]

Are there any stats for the M4A1 in the 2.2 rules?

[Legbreaker]

Not in the books, but you can find stats here:

http://www.pmulcahy.com/search_page....=1447j708209j4

[Tnchi2a]

Sorry should have been more specific
was looking for official stats for the M4A1 assault rifle

[Legbreaker]

Same site then. Paul has virtually EVERYTHING you can imagine.
http://www.pmulcahy.com/assault_rifl...rifles_a-c.htm

[Tnchi2a]

again was looking for official stats

[Tnchi2a]

nothing against pmulcahy

[.45cultist]

The closest official source you would find would be in the third edition of Dark Conspiracy RPG called "Conspiracy Rules". Or you can use the design rules in Fire, Fusion & Steel.

[Legbreaker]

Or the M177 on page 22 of Infantry Weapons of the World. It's not an exact match, but close enough for gaming purposes.
Personally though I prefer Pauls stats - they're much better than the books.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Or the M177 on page 22 of Infantry Weapons of the World. It's not an exact match, but close enough for gaming purposes.
Personally though I prefer Pauls stats - they're much better than the books.

Biggest difference should be range by a few meters, there's 10.5 versus 14.5 inches. Using a civvie R6920 16.1 inch upper will give it a few more. I'll check the stats out.

[Legbreaker]

Not like the book stats are particularly accurate in the first place though...

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Not like the book stats are particularly accurate in the first place though...

I think the T2K2 V2.2 rule book mixed the M177 and M231 ranges. In the DC3 rules the M4A1 has these stats : RoF 5, Dam 3, Pen 1-Nil, Bulk 3/4, Mag 30, SS 2 & Brst 4, Rng 30. Using FF&S I figured Rng 40 for the R6920.

[Legbreaker]

The authors "dumbed down" the stats for most weapons I think, lumping similar calibre weapons together with the same ranges, damage and recoil, and (excluding pistols) rounding to the nearest 5 metres with range as well. All well and good for most gamers, but not all that great for those who actually know a little about firearms and their real world performance in relation to each other.
Recoil for in the books is also a little high in my opinion. For example the F88 (Steyr AUG) rifle has a listed recoil of 3 which allows only one decently aimed shot per 5 second phase by the average strength shooter. I myself could squeeze off 2-3 in that same time and I'm certainly not the strongest of people. Paul's stats for the same weapon lists the recoil at a more reasonable 2 for single shots and almost controllable 6 for bursts (down from the 8 in the books).

[Tnchi2a]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

The closest official source you would find would be in the third edition of Dark Conspiracy RPG called "Conspiracy Rules". Or you can use the design rules in Fire, Fusion & Steel.

Ty very much
had both the guns I was looking for (M4 and AI sniper)
and the rule updates where great going to us them in my game.

[Tnchi2a]

Conspiracy Rules is kind of like 2.5 level rules
not as over the top as twilight 2013, but more like 2.2 revised and expanded.
love it.
fixed some of the crazier things about 2.2 like
1. Small arms is a str skill ?
2. low skilled special forces.
to use it for twilight just ignore the psi and monster sections and you good.

[.45cultist]

They are working on a weapon source book as well. If I'm not submitting an article for their online mag, I use Paul's site. Otherwise grab the calulator and FF&S.

[Tnchi2a]

I would use Infantry Weapons of the World for second ED it has a weapon stating rules.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Tnchi2a

I would use Infantry Weapons of the World for second ED it has a weapon stating rules.

Fire, Fusion & Steel gives a little more detail.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Tnchi2a

Sorry should have been more specific
was looking for official stats for the M4A1 assault rifle

Oh. That's a bit smaller than the Sherman Tank.

Considering that the M4A1 design was developed well-after 2.2 saw print, I'd say you are out of luck for official stats.

Looking at stats developed from the formulae in Infantry Weapons of the World, the changes involved are a small change from the M4, though I am not sure that is in print either (not handy at the moment).

This is what I have for the M4A1:

Wgt: 3.74 kg (includes mag
Cost: $940 (RL: $700 unit cost for M4 + $240 upgrade kit)
Ammo: 5.56N

ROF_Dmg__Pen_Blk _Mag_RclSS Brst _Range
10___2___2-Nil_4___30___3___16_137.5

Upgraded version of M4 carbine. Heavier barrel (to better handle automatic fire), picatinny rail. Done as kit applied to existing M4s.

Uncle Ted

[unkated]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Fire, Fusion & Steel gives a little more detail.

It has been my experience that Fire Fusion and Steel provides skewed results when applied to real world weapons. Either the weapons are notably heavier than their real-world design, or if held to weight and size, are underpowered.

If nothing else, the formulae used in Infantry Weapons are those used to develop the other weapons modeled in the Infantry Weapons Guide. So, whatever the difference is in the two modeling systems (FFS & Inf Weapons), using those in Inf weapons would be consistent with the rest of the weapons available.

Uncle Ted

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by unkated

It has been my experience that Fire Fusion and Steel provides skewed results when applied to real world weapons. Either the weapons are notably heavier than their real-world design, or if held to weight and size, are underpowered.

If nothing else, the formulae used in Infantry Weapons are those used to develop the other weapons modeled in the Infantry Weapons Guide. So, whatever the difference is in the two modeling systems (FFS & Inf Weapons), using those in Inf weapons would be consistent with the rest of the weapons available.

Uncle Ted

I had the second printing that had some corrections and the results seemed to be comparable to book stuff. I used it for rcl and range of a given barrel length. Beyond figuring barrel length, I don't use the entire rules set so it's just more detailed than IW. I hope 3HG gets their weapons book done soon.