Ammo stockpiles

[aspqrz]

An email from a correspondent of mine regarding a particularly silly apocalypse proposal thread on Reddit got me thinking about something that had sort of been kicking around in the back of my head for a long while ...

Assuming something like a 'Walking Dead' outbreak which largely overwhelms society before it can work out a solution, how much ammo is actually on hand at any given time (I'm mainly talking small arms ammo, not large caliber stuff) in military stockpiles?

I mean, a lot of Zombie or similar post- apocalypse fiction (not all of it, but a heck of a lot) seems to assume an almost unlimited supply ...

Remembering back to the first episode of TWD, when Rick wakes up and travels through the town seeing the overrun defensive positions etc. Or the last episode of the first season when they get to the CDC and find the army positions outside overrun because they ran out of ammo ...

Obviously, at some point, the ability to manufacture ammo breaks down in the face of the disaster ... but how much ammo would be on hand?

The best figure I have been able to come up with is the assumption that NATO (mainly the US) may have had 90 days stockpiles, and more (maybe another 90 days) in the Continental US ... but how long would it last against an enemy who can only be put down permanently by a headshot?

Anyone have any idea what sort of stocks of small arms ammo were held? Are now held?

(Yes, I know Zombie apocalypses are pretty close to being the least credible apocalypse scenarios out there ... but the question of how much ammo there is is ... interesting ...)

Phil

[aspqrz]

There's a line that comes to mind from H Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising' where the commander of the Terran forces comments to the effect that 'Junior Officers think ammo comes down like manna from heaven when they pray for it over the radio to higher command ...'

There's only three things important in war ... logistics, logistics and logistics.

Phil

[Legbreaker]

Z Nation is another show where they seem perpetually out, or close to out of ammo. It's quiet common for them to have to pool their resources and find they've got three bullets, two paper clips and a winning smile left and little else. Mind you the show proper starts about three years after Z day. Food is often also in critically short supply with one episode almost seeing them die of starvation and thirst.

I can't speak much about overall stocks, but I know my original reserve infantry battalion (Australian) was allocated something like 10,000 rounds of 7.62N ball, about the same 7.62N belted, and an unknown amount of 5.56N (we didn't even have any weapons to fire it until the regular army switched to the F88 and their M16s got handed down), and 9mmP (for a total of 7 pistols in the entire battalion).
This was the annual training supply and could have been a bit less (20+ years ago). It was rumoured that although we were usually a bit short on rifle and machinegun ammo, the battalion had enough 9mm left over to last about a dozen lifetimes! I think we were still being allocated 9mm for the old F1 SMGs we'd handed in a few years before, so it just kept piling up.

[CDAT]

I do not know anything about total amounts, but I know the .50 BMG we were using in 2003 was made in WWII (Dated 44, and 45).

[.45cultist]

And Lake City Ammunition Plant has 4 times the U.S. commercial capacity.

[Blink_Dog]

I was thinking about this very topic about a week ago. This answer is in relation to the Twilight war not so much a zombie outbreak.

There was probably a two maybe even three year period of full tilt production by every ammunition manufacturer worldwide for producing military calibres and production of hunting and civilian use ammo would have ceased. So 5.56N or 7.62x39 would still be available even years after the nukes fly. More obscure calibres with no military use like .38 Special or .44 Magnum would be rare in comparison and only available in small lots.

I would imagine Neutral nations would cash in on ammo sales after the nukes fly due to the worsening global logistic system.

I found this article:
http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues...arms_ammo.html

[Draq]

Not quite. Civilian calibers would still be in production although at a lower rate than military calibers. The pro-gun american public will buy every last round, cartridge and shell at the slightest hint of war, invasion, or threat to the sencond amendment. And keep in mind, when the war starts (Nov 1997) most law enforcement agencies were still using a hodgepodge of weapons and calibers.

[aspqrz]

That's interesting about Lake City. I guess that the likelihood is that there would be a lot of ammo left ... but probably that the supply chain broke down before it could be distributed.

In a Zombie Apocalypse, you could, therefore, reasonably find ammo convoys overrun by said Zombies, planes carrying vital ammo also at overrun airports or airfields, but probably the bulk of the (huge?) stockpiles still in the relevant magazines ... wherever.

Which brings up a related issue ... where the heck does the US store all that ammo?

Presumably several places. But where?

Likewise, anyone know for other countries?

I imagine this is not exactly secret info, just not widely publicised or disseminated,

Phil

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

That's interesting about Lake City. I guess that the likelihood is that there would be a lot of ammo left ... but probably that the supply chain broke down before it could be distributed.

In a Zombie Apocalypse, you could, therefore, reasonably find ammo convoys overrun by said Zombies, planes carrying vital ammo also at overrun airports or airfields, but probably the bulk of the (huge?) stockpiles still in the relevant magazines ... wherever.

Which brings up a related issue ... where the heck does the US store all that ammo?

Presumably several places. But where?

Likewise, anyone know for other countries?

I imagine this is not exactly secret info, just not widely publicised or disseminated,

Phil

Onsite in carts called "buggies", bunkers and rail cars. Plus there is SAAMI safe, Military rejected ammo and contract overrun and surplus ammo all for civilian sale. The contractor was a branch of ATK who owns 75-80% of the civilian ammo makers. LC is one of twelve top plants in the world, the only other one in the Americas is in Brazil. BTW, Lake City is "GOCO", Govt Owned, Contractor Operated. What small arms ammunition it doesn't make or assemble(Winchester SLAP), it packs according to U.S. specs (Bofors 5.56N AP Tungsten core).It is the source of .30-06 Ap, the backbone of U.S. military armor rating programs.

[aspqrz]

So, you're saying it is ALL stored onsite at Salt Lake City?

Seems a bit ... odd ...

Nothing stored nearer, oh, I dunno, major military bases and/or ports or suchlike (and I don't mean stuff presumably 'in transit' from SLC)?

Of course, there's the Maritime Prepositioning Ships in the Indian Ocean (and wherever) and, presumably, the support ships for MEFs and MEBs, those that are embarked at the time of the ZA, presumably ... and aren't sunk/'lost at sea'

I know when I was in the Citizen Military Forces in 1974-75, there was bugger all (if any) ammo stored at Sydney University Regiment base ... if we did a Range Day or suchlike it was provided onsite and, IIRC, came from somewhere out to the west of Sydney ... Holsworthy? Maybe Singleton?

I also know that at Queen Victoria Barracks (Regular Army) in Sydney the only ammo on the premises was for the Browning Hi-Power kept locked in the Paymaster's safe, and brought out when pay was being issued (in cash in those days). Allegedly the ammo had been in the magazine, which was only inserted in the pistol when 'in use', and had been for ... longer than anyone could remember (which was the last time the weapon had been stripped an cleaned rather than merely wiped over externally).

Wouldn't like anyone's chances of getting off more than one shot (because the spring feed in the mag had been under compression for so long) ... and even that wouldn't be a certainty.

No fending off Zombie Hordes with that gun.

(And, no, back in the day, 'armed' sentries at military bases had no ammo in their rifles, either ... MPs, maybe. OOW, possibly)

Phil

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

So, you're saying it is ALL stored onsite at Salt Lake City?

Seems a bit ... odd ...

Nothing stored nearer, oh, I dunno, major military bases and/or ports or suchlike (and I don't mean stuff presumably 'in transit' from SLC)?

Of course, there's the Maritime Prepositioning Ships in the Indian Ocean (and wherever) and, presumably, the support ships for MEFs and MEBs, those that are embarked at the time of the ZA, presumably ... and aren't sunk/'lost at sea'

I know when I was in the Citizen Military Forces in 1974-75, there was bugger all (if any) ammo stored at Sydney University Regiment base ... if we did a Range Day or suchlike it was provided onsite and, IIRC, came from somewhere out to the west of Sydney ... Holsworthy? Maybe Singleton?

I also know that at Queen Victoria Barracks (Regular Army) in Sydney the only ammo on the premises was for the Browning Hi-Power kept locked in the Paymaster's safe, and brought out when pay was being issued (in cash in those days). Allegedly the ammo had been in the magazine, which was only inserted in the pistol when 'in use', and had been for ... longer than anyone could remember (which was the last time the weapon had been stripped an cleaned rather than merely wiped over externally).

Wouldn't like anyone's chances of getting off more than one shot (because the spring feed in the mag had been under compression for so long) ... and even that wouldn't be a certainty.

No fending off Zombie Hordes with that gun.

(And, no, back in the day, 'armed' sentries at military bases had no ammo in their rifles, either ... MPs, maybe. OOW, possibly)

Phil

Two things, first it is lake city, not Salt Lake (not sure where lake city is located), second at least in the US every military base that I have been to has ammo stockpiled both war stocks and training ammo, depending on the base and what training can be done there would make a difference on what ammo is there.

[aspqrz]

Originally Posted by CDAT

Two things, first it is lake city, not Salt Lake (not sure where lake city is located), second at least in the US every military base that I have been to has ammo stockpiled both war stocks and training ammo, depending on the base and what training can be done there would make a difference on what ammo is there.

Ah, sorry, Lake City.

So, 'war stocks' are???

The only reference I was able to dig up is for a 'unit of fire' and the definition dates back to WW2 and assumed 1 days high intensity battle (and assumed that would only occur once a month, at least in the PTO) for the unit. AIUI now undefined (or maybe called something else?) Units of Fire are carried on unit transport, at least at Battalion level or above.

ISTR (hazily) that it was assumed that a US/NATO unit would typically have 2-3 UoFs at Battalion, the same at Brigade, and perhaps 2-3 times that much at Divisional level, at least when on a war footing. Whether that was more pious wishful thinking or actuality I have no idea ... I do remember reading that non US NATO (especially the Dutch and Danes) skimped on all sorts of ammo and ordnance, relying on the assumption that the US would bail then out from *their* stocks if the shtf ... which would, of course, burnt US logistics planning to a crisp.

So, I am guessing, bases have (on or nearby) at least one UoF (for long term training rather than combat) and an unspecified amount additional to that for 'war reserve' ... but, presumably, not on the base itself (if in or near a populated area) or one some out of the way part of the base?

Which would be what would be burnt through at least once in any ZA scenario, a la The Walking Dead ... I can't see a lot of aimed headshots (except maybe Marines, if you take their assertions seriously) but one hell of a lot of spray and pray, especially as Zombie numbers escalate.

I would guess that artillery units would be mostly useless by the time the need for them was realised ... they require a rear area to be placed in, but pretty much everywhere would be 'front line' ... as Zombie numbers increase, they'd need more troops defending them than they would contribute firepower to distant units. Unless they can (and do) fire over open sights ... which requires flechette or canister or whatever they call it these days, and I understand that there's never much of it, if it is even available for the caliber weapon in question.

Mortars would, of course, be useful, but run into the resupply problem and, to a lesser extent, the need for a rear area.

Airforce bases? Well, they would have to be defended and, apart from Helicopters (Attack or merely armed), wouldn't have much utility because of lack of the right sort of ordnance, I am guessing. Standard HE/Frag would be worse than useless ... you'd need napalm or massive overkill with something like bomblets, and I suspect they are in relatively short supply,.

Naval bases would have an advantage in that they can simply pull up the gangplank and watch the Zombies mill around on shore ... assuming the base has enough lift capacity to put everyone on ships. And assuming that the infection doesn't get aboard the ships ... at which point they become the venue for a nasty real-life version of a Hollywood slasher flick.

And the Navy's problem would be that, aiui, ships carry only a small number of smallarms, only enough for a tiny fraction of the complement, and, likewise, don't carry a heck of a lot of smallarms ammo for those weapons. Unless, of course, you have a MEF or MEB stationed there, along with its 'Phibs and support ships.

(And that assumes that said Naval Base is actually on or otherwise connected to an Ocean ... I saw enough 'Naval Facilities' in inland locations as I toured all over the US for almost 3 months in 2010 and again in 2014)

Phil

[aspqrz]

Lake City, outside of Independence, MO.

Even more out of the way than SLC!

Phil

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Ah, sorry, Lake City.

So, 'war stocks' are???

The only reference I was able to dig up is for a 'unit of fire' and the definition dates back to WW2 and assumed 1 days high intensity battle (and assumed that would only occur once a month, at least in the PTO) for the unit. AIUI now undefined (or maybe called something else?) Units of Fire are carried on unit transport, at least at Battalion level or above.

ISTR (hazily) that it was assumed that a US/NATO unit would typically have 2-3 UoFs at Battalion, the same at Brigade, and perhaps 2-3 times that much at Divisional level, at least when on a war footing. Whether that was more pious wishful thinking or actuality I have no idea ... I do remember reading that non US NATO (especially the Dutch and Danes) skimped on all sorts of ammo and ordnance, relying on the assumption that the US would bail then out from *their* stocks if the shtf ... which would, of course, burnt US logistics planning to a crisp.

So, I am guessing, bases have (on or nearby) at least one UoF (for long term training rather than combat) and an unspecified amount additional to that for 'war reserve' ... but, presumably, not on the base itself (if in or near a populated area) or one some out of the way part of the base?

Which would be what would be burnt through at least once in any ZA scenario, a la The Walking Dead ... I can't see a lot of aimed headshots (except maybe Marines, if you take their assertions seriously) but one hell of a lot of spray and pray, especially as Zombie numbers escalate.

I would guess that artillery units would be mostly useless by the time the need for them was realised ... they require a rear area to be placed in, but pretty much everywhere would be 'front line' ... as Zombie numbers increase, they'd need more troops defending them than they would contribute firepower to distant units. Unless they can (and do) fire over open sights ... which requires flechette or canister or whatever they call it these days, and I understand that there's never much of it, if it is even available for the caliber weapon in question.

Mortars would, of course, be useful, but run into the resupply problem and, to a lesser extent, the need for a rear area.

Airforce bases? Well, they would have to be defended and, apart from Helicopters (Attack or merely armed), wouldn't have much utility because of lack of the right sort of ordnance, I am guessing. Standard HE/Frag would be worse than useless ... you'd need napalm or massive overkill with something like bomblets, and I suspect they are in relatively short supply,.

Naval bases would have an advantage in that they can simply pull up the gangplank and watch the Zombies mill around on shore ... assuming the base has enough lift capacity to put everyone on ships. And assuming that the infection doesn't get aboard the ships ... at which point they become the venue for a nasty real-life version of a Hollywood slasher flick.

And the Navy's problem would be that, aiui, ships carry only a small number of smallarms, only enough for a tiny fraction of the complement, and, likewise, don't carry a heck of a lot of smallarms ammo for those weapons. Unless, of course, you have a MEF or MEB stationed there, along with its 'Phibs and support ships.

(And that assumes that said Naval Base is actually on or otherwise connected to an Ocean ... I saw enough 'Naval Facilities' in inland locations as I toured all over the US for almost 3 months in 2010 and again in 2014)

Phil

As I understand it, each TO&E says "X" amount of Ammunition to train and "Y" amount of Ammunition for war is to be stored. You don't just dump excess ammo from one into the other. And a few careers have ended over inappropriate disposal before Change of Command, when the unit property books are inspected. For a "Z" scenario or early in the Twilight War this could change though. So if a unit is allotted 10 cases of 5.56N to deploy in war, it has 1 to 10 cases allotted for re-qualification and training depending on the circumstances.

[Apache6]

Stateside in the U.S., major bases have a certain ammount of contingency ammunition which is really maintained to provide the initial combat load for forces mounting out for expeditionary operations. I will not state specific amounts but it's more then a couple combat loads (though it veries by type) for units assigned there with expeditionary missions.

There is also normally a fairly large amount of ammunition stored for training. A major combat unit goes through a lot of ammunitiion over a course of a year. The ammunition is normally ordered and delivered based on fiscal year (begining in October rather then Jan) training cycles.

At an absolote minimum, even a non deployable Marine unit gets ~ 400 rounds of 5.56mm for each Marine to conduct annual rifle range requalification and ~ 200 rounds of 9mm for each SNCO/Officer and junior Marine assigned a pistol to conduct annual pistol qualification.

Deployable combat arms units are allocated much more ammo.

There are several VERY large ammunition stockpiles on the east and west coast which are built near major ports to allow for then to be sent overseas, each also has rail and road access, built to allow them to receive munitions from the factories. Would also serve to allow it to be sent out.

Both the Army and the Navy (for the USMC) have contracted ammunition ships which contain large ammunition stockpiles which are designed to support major combat operations by brigade sized units. The Maritime Positioning Ships, contracted by USN in support of USMC land operations stock 15 days worth of ammunition for a Marine Expeditionary Brigade.

[Raellus]

My impression is that there's not as much ammo out there as we'd like to believe.

I wish I'd posted it when I first encountered it, but a few years ago, I read an article about how the U.S. military was having a hard time keeping 5.56mm and 7.62mm ammo in stock- it was right after "The Surge", I believe. The military was having to purchase ammo off-the-shelf on the civilian market to make up for shortfalls. Recent articles have claimed that the U.S. is currently running very low on air-dropped munitions. Supply simply hasn't kept up with demand.

Also, after the Sandy Hook elementary school mass shooting, it was really difficult for civilians to find .223 or 5.56mm ammo as there was a panic run on many calibers of small arms ammo ("Oh no! Obama's coming for our guns now!"). I pretty much gave up on hobby shooting at that time. In fact, in one of the saddest phenomena in my country, this sort of thing happens after nearly every mass shooting, and firearms sales skyrocket.

So, from this anecdotal evidence, I think ammo would quickly become scarce in a major national crisis (World War, Zombacalype, etc.). Yeah, there'd be pockets of supply, but they'd be few and far between. I always laugh when folks go full auto on TWD, especially in later seasons. Wishful thinking, at best.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Ah, sorry, Lake City.

No problem, just thought would let you know they are different.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

So, 'war stocks' are???

War stocks are the ammo on hand so a unit can go to war with out having to wait for ammo. It is different than training ammo in some things. Like the Tanks will not be using target practice ammo, but full up Sabot, and or HEAT rounds. The MG ammo will be the AP type not the ball (most likely). How much is on hand depends on the unit, I would expect the 82nd to have more per soldier than 91st troop command. My first unit was an enhanced brigade with standing orders to be ready to fight in Korea, the plan at the time was that if war broke out we would be the first heavy unit there and expect to fight for at least two weeks before the next unit could show up, so our war stocks was what they expected we would need for two weeks of combat. I would guess (and it is only a guess) after they started to let plans like that slide (and going to central supply) that there would still be at least one full combat load, but maybe not much more. No this next part is just my thought so could be very wrong. But my thought is if they did it smart, they would have each unit have it, but going up would still include there lower units, as about the only thing that can be said for how much ammo you go through is that it is more than you think. So using my old unit as an example the brigade would have there two weeks, but then the division would still include that brigade in its plans for how much to keep on hand, so if the divisions plan is that it will be resupplied within a week, and it has four brigades it would keep four brigades worth for a week, or one brigade for four weeks.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

So, I am guessing, bases have (on or nearby) at least one UoF (for long term training rather than combat) and an unspecified amount additional to that for 'war reserve' ... but, presumably, not on the base itself (if in or near a populated area) or one some out of the way part of the base?

Some would depend on what training could be done at the base. For example I was sent to Camp Rilea OR once, they have a demo limit of .25lbs so they do not need much demo for training, but I also know that they have a guard engineer unit there. They would have full demo load for war, but not training. Training ammo is usually allotted at the start of the training year, and then issued out as needed over the year. In the event of the zombie hoard I think that they would use it as well, but depending on how much has been used there may not be much or could just have gotten it. It is normally stored at the AHA (Ammo Holding Area) or ASP (Ammo Supply Point) in special bunkers.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Which would be what would be burnt through at least once in any ZA scenario, a la The Walking Dead ... I can't see a lot of aimed headshots (except maybe Marines, if you take their assertions seriously) but one hell of a lot of spray and pray, especially as Zombie numbers escalate.

I think that you may have some spray and pray early on, but the ones who did it would die early on. It would be the ones who took the head shoots would live, the Marines may take it at a longer range than the typical Soldier, but even with the Marines saying that everyone is a rifleman first, that does not mean that they are going to be taking head shoots at 600 meters. I think that automatic weapons (IE. crew served) would still be used in full auto mode, as most are not supper accurate if used as semi-auto, so use them to thin the herd at longer range, even if you do not drop them you may slow them down.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

I would guess that artillery units would be mostly useless by the time the need for them was realised ... they require a rear area to be placed in, but pretty much everywhere would be 'front line' ... as Zombie numbers increase, they'd need more troops defending them than they would contribute firepower to distant units. Unless they can (and do) fire over open sights ... which requires flechette or canister or whatever they call it these days, and I understand that there's never much of it, if it is even available for the caliber weapon in question.

Towed artillery I would agree would be mostly useless, self-propeld guns would not depending on the ammo they have on hand. Dropping an HE round at what would be danger close to dismounts does not hurt the armored vehicle, does it kill very many zombies? I do not know but does damage them, is that good or bad? Again I do not know, they are likely going to be slower now, but also may be harder to see. They did have canister rounds for the 105mm, and the 155mm, what is on hand that is a different story.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Mortars would, of course, be useful, but run into the resupply problem and, to a lesser extent, the need for a rear area.

I would say that they would be a lot like artillery, the ground ones would be less useful, the armored ones more. However they are going to be in some ways less useful than the artillery as they are open when firing, so zombies could get in.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Airforce bases? Well, they would have to be defended and, apart from Helicopters (Attack or merely armed), wouldn't have much utility because of lack of the right sort of ordnance, I am guessing. Standard HE/Frag would be worse than useless ... you'd need napalm or massive overkill with something like bomblets, and I suspect they are in relatively short supply,.

I agree that I think Airforce bases would be more or less useless. But not for the same reasons. As I was saying under artillery I am not sure that HE/Frag would be useless (or worse), they may not be the best, but I could see them having some use, the larger the group the better. ICM (bomblets) would be good, and yes I am guessing that they do not have as many as HE bombs, but we use lots of them so I would guess they have a fair number on hand. Napalm I would guess is the one they have the least of and it could work but I see so side affects, once the zombie is on fire how long tell it dies? What else is it going to set on fire? Now the reasons that I think it would be more or less useless, I do not think that they have enough troops to secure the base, they probably have the lowest trained ground troops of all, and they are the highest maintenance of all. How many spare parts do they have on hand? On my second trip to the sand box, we got delayed for a week as they did not have a simple (what the crew said) part on hand at the air base. It took them the week to get it shipped to them, and then about ten minutes to replace the part. Could they have flow with out it? I am guessing yes, but as it was a common part (again according to the crew) what about the parts that they can not fly with? So my guess is that within a week of the Zombie Outbreak taking over they would be out of parts and grounded, if they had not already been overran.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Naval bases would have an advantage in that they can simply pull up the gangplank and watch the Zombies mill around on shore ... assuming the base has enough lift capacity to put everyone on ships. And assuming that the infection doesn't get aboard the ships ... at which point they become the venue for a nasty real-life version of a Hollywood slasher flick.

I am guessing that they do not have enough space for all, and like all bases could not be defended, but I could see some of the ships being a good starting point. It would take some planing and moving of supplies, but for some time a very good option.

Originally Posted by aspqrz

And the Navy's problem would be that, aiui, ships carry only a small number of smallarms, only enough for a tiny fraction of the complement, and, likewise, don't carry a heck of a lot of smallarms ammo for those weapons. Unless, of course, you have a MEF or MEB stationed there, along with its 'Phibs and support ships.

The bigger issue I think would be the lack of guns (not small arms) on the ships. If you are sending troops to the shore for supplies and have already used your missiles (very small number with no reloads for most) then what.

[Apache6]

I'm not saying there will not be shortages caused by uneven distribution.

I am saying that there are enough small arms rounds in the US military inventory to deal with a "zombie outbreak" or lots of other contingencies. There are significant stockpiles of small arms rounds, and other munitions.

The following link has a lot of information. Short synopsis, the pre 9/11 annual requirement for 5.56 rounds was 682 million rounds. That was increased to 1.35 billion rounds. The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant is capable at full production rate of making 1.2 billion rounds a year.

http://www.alu.army.mil/alog/issues/...arms_ammo.html

The lack of ammunition during the surge was for a specific type of "New" round for the 5.56.

The above does not even begin to account for the rounds held by private individuals, police departments, and retailers/wholesalers (Walmart, Cabelas, Bass Pro-Shop...) or for ammunition either made by civilian companies or imported.Shortages of civilian ammo has largely been caused by politically fueled fears. Again, that is VERY likely to occur during a real panic, so I'm not saying that their will not be shortages. .22 Long Rifle ammunition has become both expensive and hard to get, but it's being produced at higher then normal levels. US commercial plants are capable of manufacturing up to 4.2 billion rounds of .22 LR each year, and they are now.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Apache6

I'm not saying there will not be shortages caused by uneven distribution.

I am saying that there are enough small arms rounds in the US military inventory to deal with a "zombie outbreak" or lots of other contingencies. There are significant stockpiles of small arms rounds, and other munitions.

The following link has a lot of information. Short synopsis, the pre 9/11 annual requirement for 5.56 rounds was 682 million rounds. That was increased to 1.35 billion rounds. The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant is capable at full production rate of making 1.2 billion rounds a year.

http://www.alu.army.mil/alog/issues/...arms_ammo.html

The lack of ammunition during the surge was for a specific type of "New" round for the 5.56.

The above does not even begin to account for the rounds held by private individuals, police departments, and retailers/wholesalers (Walmart, Cabelas, Bass Pro-Shop...) or for ammunition either made by civilian companies or imported.Shortages of civilian ammo has largely been caused by politically fueled fears. Again, that is VERY likely to occur during a real panic, so I'm not saying that their will not be shortages. .22 Long Rifle ammunition has become both expensive and hard to get, but it's being produced at higher then normal levels. US commercial plants are capable of manufacturing up to 4.2 billion rounds of .22 LR each year, and they are now.

They operate at about 1/3 or so capacity. It would take the T2K timeline to bring it to full strength- just in time for the bombs.

[dragoon500ly]

A lot also depends on if the unit maintains a partial load on its heavy vehicles, roe example, in the 1980s, tank units in Germany, forward of Ansbach, would maintain a load of 40 rounds of main gun ammo, usually 25 APDS and 15 HEAT. When an alert was sounded, the plan (snicker) was to move out to our ready positions, where the ASP would bring the semis with the rest of the ammo load to us. Since we had M60A3s, our WP and HEP were stored on the trailers, following the switch to M1s, everything was switched to APDS/HEAT only. Since.we were armored cavalry, we also had a selection of land mines, cratering charges and demolition gear, as well as TOWs, Dragons and LAWs.

For the units stationed west of Ansbach, they depended on the ASPs for all of their ammunition. Although I have heard that this policy was changed whenever tensions increased.

Pretty much the only units that I am aware of that had small arms ammo readily available were the units equipped with Pershing, the forward SAM batteries.

Going stateside...trust soldiers with live ammo? Only on the firing ranges! The ASPs were protected by armed civilian security.

As the tee shirt says, "They don't trust us with ammo, but they want us to be able to run really fast..."

[Apache6]

I use T2K Version 1 timeline, so I think that the Russian - Chinese war would provide the lead time needed to ramp up the ammo production.

I know that US government contracts often include a contingency capabilty requirement. They are 'contracted' for a certain amount of production capability, even though the actual orders might be for less. Theoretically they already have the materials and workers to ramp up production.

USMC and Navy ASPs are ran by service members, the security forces are supplied with live ammo.

[Draq]

Don't forget, the us was also operating in the middle east and africa. So production would be considered 'war time' I think.

[aspqrz]

Thanks for all the replies, I have a much better handle on how things would play out in a ZA style scenario now!

Phil

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

Thanks for all the replies, I have a much better handle on how things would play out in a ZA style scenario now!

Phil

I'm toying with the GPS Biohazard entry, which is a type of living zombie- Infected, Rager type. Since There are a lot of resistant bugs, I'm going with the lab working to solve this. When the accident occurs, an investor rep is present. The bacteria seem benign in its currant strain and the all clear is given. He has several grants to check across the U.S. getting the bacteria into the international airports, where a mutation gives it its deadly variant.
This is as far as I've gotten. Sorry about the OT. But ammo availability will vary according to population and law. New Jersy discourages self defense with hollow points, they've even jailed retired LEO's for failure to turn the ammunition in. Also during one ammo panic, police departments had to wait 6 months to replenish their stocks.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Apache6

I use T2K Version 1 timeline, so I think that the Russian - Chinese war would provide the lead time needed to ramp up the ammo production.

Last I heard the Chinese didn't use Nato calibre ammo, therefore most of the ammo production during this period (beyond normal peacetime production) would be useless for the US and allies.

[aspqrz]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

I'm toying with the GPS Biohazard entry, which is a type of living zombie- Infected, Rager type. Since There are a lot of resistant bugs, I'm going with the lab working to solve this. When the accident occurs, an investor rep is present. The bacteria seem benign in its currant strain and the all clear is given. He has several grants to check across the U.S. getting the bacteria into the international airports, where a mutation gives it its deadly variant

As I sorta stated at the beginning, there are NO ZA books, movies or TV series that bear even the most cursory logical examination. Not a one.

They are all completely, totally, and utterly implausible ... indeed, mostly impossible.

Some I can tolerate because they are fun, and, generally, short ... others, are just too stupid for words. A few start out well and then descend into idiocy ... Ringo's books are like that, first was fine. Second started to become unbelievable. Third (and presumably successive ones) completely jumped the shark.

There are three key issues that ZA scenarios completely ignore because, if they took them into account, they would all be disasters, but not apocalyptic ones with mankind almost wiped out.

1) Zombies use energy (to move around and chase down other humans at the very least). Unless you repeal the laws of thermodynamics, the energy has to come from *somewhere* ... so Zombies need to eat.

As they are, by definition, possessed of at best animal cunning and no intelligence as such, that immediately eliminates all tinned and heavily packaged foods as a food source, and, in any case, they'll all be gone in a few days to a week or so from local stores, anyway.

Ergo, they need to eat something readily available ... since they are probably too stupid to recognise most plant foods (fruits and suchlike excepted) and since there is bugger all of such in cities, they will eat meat. Any meat. Not just humans.

The result? Well, how many herbivores does it take to feed a single Lion? Or how many Deer to feed a single Coyote? Given, of course, that the prey doesn't really want to be a Lion or Coyote's main course?

Answer: A heck of a lot. Which is why Lions are so thin on the ground and Coyotes ditto (compared to humans or human domesticated animals).

So, within a very short time cities might as well be deserts ... not enough food to support more than dozens or scores of zombies in an entire city ... unless the zombies eat each other, which has the same effect, more quickly, in fact.

There would be no massive hordes of zombies keeping people penned up on rooftops or the barricaded upper floors of multi-storey buildings ... not gonna happen.

In the countryside? Not much better for zombies ... they'll have to spread out like any apex predator, so the density per square mile will actually be very very low. So, at best, a dozen or so in a group, maybe a score or so.

Makes for very short post Zombie adventures.

2) Humans are quite fragile. Living in unsanitary conditions kills us off in large numbers, especially if malnourished.

Note what I pointed out in #1 above. Zombies will be thin on the ground because there isn't enough food.

Follow on. Humans are ill suited to relying on instinct and natural weapons to secure food ... the reason why we are the apex predator of apex predators is that we are intelligent. Tool use etc.

Zombies aren't intelligent and don't use tools. They would be relatively useless as hunters. They will routinely be malnourished ... if they remain in an urban setting, garbage and pollution will be breeding grounds for all sorts of nasties that would require modern medical care to allow them to survive ... and a heck of a lot more that will kill people (zombies) who get no medical care at all (it is well known, if widely underappreciated, that basic nursing can reduce the death rate for even high lethality diseases such as Smallpox, the Plague etc. Keeping the patient warm/cool/protected from the elements, toileted and clean, fed and watered).

The mortality rate would be very very high, and ongoing.

Zombies in rural areas, presumably away from urban filth, would be better off ... but, as noted, almost certainly routinely undernourished and, hence, much more susceptible to disease. And, of course, this brings us to ...

3) Climate. Humans are woefully adapted for anything but a warm climate. Our intelligence and tool use enable us to modify our environment and/or makes us resistant to it (housing, climate control, clothing) ... but Zombies simply aren't intelligent.

Ringo Zombies, being completely naked and all, if not thinned by starvation or disease, would increasingly succumb to exposure ... especially as the weather turns cold.

In most of North America and Northern Europe they would, for example, freeze to death in droves over the first (and all succeeding) winters.

I suppose they might instinctively migrate to warmer climates ... but that can bring its own problems. Think about unintelligent instinct driven poorly adapted for hunting or survival zombies trying to work their way south in the US ... into increasingly arid and semi-arid areas (if not outright deserts).

More die backs in large numbers.

Finally, as a clue as to how many Zombies the planet could support - it is estimated that our early stone age ancestors probably numbered no more than 100,000 worldwide ... only increasing to a million or so with the technological developments of the New Stone Age and Chalcolithic period.

Not much of a threat.

YMMV

Phil

[aspqrz]

I, to, have been kicking around ideas of how to have something like a realistic 'Zombie Apocalypse' ... and, as you may have guessed from the immediately preceeding post, it can't be done with anything like classical zombies.

But you can get a similar effect, I think.

I posit a badly mismanaged (or merely incredibly unfortunate) 'supersoldier' project designed to use wet nanotech to create enhanced human combatants. Make them stronger, faster, more resistant to injury ... create an internal 'mechanical telepathy' (hook a wet nanotech transceiver created internally that allows networked comms between them) and create a networkable but bios controlled tactical computer to assist them.

Add to this mission creep ... the ability for the nanotech to be (relatively) easily passed on to friendlies and to reanimate newly dead (enemy of course, say the PR flacks) corpses into remotely controlled meat puppets.

See where this is going?

See, unfortunately, using the supersoldier abilities tends to cook your brain (a la Ringo zombies), at least in the early stages ... and then the programmed tactical computer combines with the remaining animal instinct ... so you get severely brain damaged pseudo-zombies who can use tools (weapons at the very least) and maybe even drive simple vehicles.

Worse, the reproduction capacity meshes ... badly ... with the brain damaged ones, and they will attempt to impregnate captives or recently dead with 'eggs' (wet nanotech products that start converting those into which they are inserted into zombies ... or breeders, whose body is turned into an incubator for more 'eggs').

Even though the nanotech isn't all that infectious, it can be spread by blood or bodily fluids or other wastes through mucous membranes or skin punctures, cuts or abrasions.

Thing is, the more Zombie Supersoldiers there are in close proximity, the more intelligent they become, the more dangerous ... the more like real soldiers ... and, once a critical mass is achieved, one or more in each super-group will start to develop something like a 'machine intelligence' with a degree of self awareness ... but rarely tempered by any compassion or emotion, merely the need for survival.

They won't (initially) spread explosively from some lab accident, but if they spread anywhere and have time to form a breeding colony and reach a critical mass, heck, once they get access to decent weapons, you're effed.

Then assume, in desperation, one side (who presumably sees themselves to be 'losing') in a Twilight War or 3rd World War type situation lets them lose, not properly tested ... really, really nasty.

They're not unkillable mindless husks hungering for braaaiiinnnsss ... they're something far, far worse.

Phil

[aspqrz]

Oh, and the wetware tactical computer includes basic and advanced first aid and resource gathering (including food gathering) skills ... and the late stage machine intelligence level leaders are capable of using prisoners to raise crops or even to have a predatory 'protection racket' collecting 'contributions' from anyone unable to resist by force of arms. Or simply stealing food.

Phil

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by aspqrz

That's interesting about Lake City. I guess that the likelihood is that there would be a lot of ammo left ... but probably that the supply chain broke down before it could be distributed.

In a Zombie Apocalypse, you could, therefore, reasonably find ammo convoys overrun by said Zombies, planes carrying vital ammo also at overrun airports or airfields, but probably the bulk of the (huge?) stockpiles still in the relevant magazines ... wherever.

Which brings up a related issue ... where the heck does the US store all that ammo?

Presumably several places. But where?

Likewise, anyone know for other countries?

I imagine this is not exactly secret info, just not widely publicised or disseminated,

Phil

Google Earth places like Sierra Army Depot, Seneca Army Depot, Umatilla Army Depot, Tooele Army Depot........... and just search Army Depot or Army Ammunition plant.

Miles of concrete bunkers called "Igloos"........ Sensitive items are protected by an alarm system that goes back to a guard complex with a reaction force, loud klaxon alarm, rotating red or amber beacon, and sometimes a very large CS dispenser that saturates the bunker.

An Army Post has its own ammunition bunkers these are divided up the Ammunition Supply Point to units in training versus units to deploy.

Any Unit is supposed to have enough munitions for three days of continous ops without resupply. Then they get another 3 day logpack or "Push".

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Blink_Dog

More obscure calibres with no military use like .38 Special or .44 Magnum would be rare in comparison and only available in small lots.

When I was at White Sands Missile Range in the early 90's there was a National Match Armory run by the Post Command Staff.

National Match M1 Garands, M1Cs, M1Ds all in 30.06. National Match M1911s in .45ACP and .38 Super. Match M10s with bull barrels in .38 spl.


Thousands of rounds of match ammo on hand. Post never really did have a Team though. Two year rotations was the norm there.